Hi everyone,

I'm Alice, and as you may have guessed I'm new to the website but I have been reading previous posts about the above topic with great interest. For some time now I've been researching advertisements to do with puppy farms/pet shops/supermarkets. I started doing this after two people I knew purchased dogs from "Dogs 4 Us" in Manchester, which later became seriously ill. I have been willing to do everything I can to put these places out of business and end the misery and suffering caused to the dogs involved. I've informed as many people as I can about puppy farms, and even helped more than a few people choose a new puppy from a reputable breeder.
Anyway, I won't go on, because I'm sure most of you on here know what I am getting at. I'm really, really interested though to hear from anyone on here who has any experience of a puppy farm, pet shop, mulit-breed outlet or anything related to this topic. I'd really appreciate information and am prepared to share my many findings with anyone who is interested! I research Loot, Exchange & Mart and various other newspapers weekly to find out who's selling what, but anyone who has anything to tell me, please e-mail me on simba_puma01@hotmail.com. I'm especially interested in hearing from those who have purchased puppies from multi-breed outlets, pet supermarkets or pet shops...

Thanks in advance and sorry to bore anyone if this topic has already come up!!

Alice, Nell and Millie x x (they're my two dogs)
Cheshire.

i agree these places need putting right out of business,no body should buy a puppy from anywhere accept good breeders that they should reserchfirst
my advice is get them shut down i would NEVER buy from anything like this
but sadly some people do.........it is a crying SHAME....

For me the sad thing is so many people believe they are helping the puppies by removing them from such places - they don't realise they are perpetuating the problem:(

My friends sister went to buy a Cocker from a farm in Wales - she couldn't wait for me to find her a reputable breeder!! Her comment was - "I just couldn't leave the puoppy in that awful place, I had to resuce her" I despair.

Pam n the boys

Hi pam. I think we all know that we shouldnt, but when they look sad and ill, its soooooooooooo hard to just leave them in the hell holes that they come from!!!!

I didn't know they were allowed to sell dogs in shops still. I will be away do a bit research myself now..

I wished we knew the answer on how to stop this. I thought the internet and boards such as these would help due to the info given to pet seekers but I still think alot of the blame is with new owners not prepared to wait on a good puppy.

Pam

You've hit the nail on the head there Pamela - I've lost count of the times I've given the names of good breeders to people but they won't wait & off they go & get their "instant" puppy from a puppy farm/dealer advertising in one of the free add papers. Don't know what the answer is to this one - it's been discussed so many times before but as long as there is a demand for puppies from such outlets, then they will stay in business You can give people any amount of helpful advice about buying only from reputable breeders, but some just won't listen sadly.

Jane

Hi Jane

I wish we could find an easy answer to this one. Some ppl won't listen and you can't blame them really for being taken in by those sad puppy eyes once they actually get there - lookl how many times we've been had - lol:D If only we could stop them getting there in the first place.

Pam

It not even a question of getting them to listen, Pam. Some of these purchasers know they would not get a puppy from a responsible breeder so I don't know what we can do about those ones.

I bought a puppy from a puppy farm once (with disasterous consequences) and at the time I was too naieve to realise and in fact I had never heard of puppy farms then either. I have had another incident recently too. People can very easily get sucked in without realising, so not everyone buys off those sort of people intentionally.

I agree Debbie - until I started reading this board about 18 months ago I knew nothing about hip dysplasia / eye tests etc.
My first GSD wasn't registered and came from a rabbit farm - we were lucky as his temperament was excellent and he was healthy - I shudder to think what the consequences could have been. I wanted a pup, saw an advert, saw a fluffly bundle of fluff and took him home.
I now know better than that and raise awareness when I can if people are searching for a pup.

I imagine when people in my area see the advert for the local "puppy farm" they presume that because they are allowed to trade things must be OK and that the place had been checked out. You can't blame them really.

I do agree that there are some though who have maybe gone through the right channels and have realised that they will not be allowed to purchase a pup from a *good* breeder and so choose to go to a puppy farm knowing full well the type of place they are.
Sara

I too agree. When I decided to get a pup, we visited dogs r us in Manchester. Had I not (and thank heavens I did) done any further research on the internet, I would have been completely ignorant to the horrors surrounding these places. Luckily for me, I had internet access - many do not. Only through reading and posting on many different sites did I feel comfortable that I was adopting the right approach to getting a puppy. I think more needs to be done through other forms of media to make the general public aware of these places - how you do that without getting yourself in trouble I do not know???

How to stop it is the big question and the answer is unfortunatly - you can't!
We have had the closest thing yet to a puppy farmer in my breed (Alaskan Malamute) and thankfully he has now moved abroad but his dogs have been sold on to others who will no doubt do the same as they are a multi breed kennel too ! I have seen some of the close bred results and they are not up to the breed standard by any means - some are and some do a bit of winning when the right person is on the end of the lead but in general they are ' not muchers' When there are people in the US with a lifetime of experience in this breed and well aware of all the pitfalls,taken years to produce a good dog etc. and then we have these people who buy a dog, mate it to any old bitch they can get hold of because the puppies are expensive and sought after and then sell them to anyone without much vetting ,problems are looming i am sure. The trouble is people want a certain breed so bad they are not prepared to wait , in a way you can't blame them,you can only blame the money hungry multibreed kennels such as i mentioned. - How to sto pthem I wish O knew the answer !

The only way to stop most of the puppy farms would be to ban the sale of puppies from a third party premises (i.e. dealer) unfortunately this requires a change in the law and the Pet Trade Industry does not agree with this as it affects their members! Pity money speaks first!

Bec, too true. There isn't a cat's chance of legislation. The 'bunny hugger' brigade has the money and thus the clout, but they aren't interested in this sort of thing.

But I do think WE could do more. So many people have said on this web site, and to me in conversation 'if only I'd known', and far too many have reported the hairy receptions they got when they approached breed clubs (maybe only a few breed clubs are like this, but a few are too many). Then there are the 'hard and fast' rules - no kids under 5 etc - about who can have pups. I know some of you think these rules are important, but can we really blame the puppy buying public if they find us supercilious at best?

We - those of us who think of ourselves as responsible breeders and the people involved in re-homing - have got to find a way to make ourselves more available and more approachable. The sad truth is that with 'quality' dogs - I include rescue people and lurcher breeders etc, as well as KC reg breeders - there are magic circles: once inside the magic circle, a world of information about how and where to get a pup, and info and help on care and training open up. But getting into the magic circle is just too hard to do. And imo much of it is our own fault.

bill i was on a list for a mal, to my surprize she was'nt bothered about meeting me or really knowing much about my backround in dog "in general" left me thinking somethings wrong,surely that something revealed it's self within the week, an advert was spotted in a local free ads paper mal cross rottvieler puppies for sale that was it for me.....i rung and give her helllllll,although i had already decided not to bother,i would never buy without meeting parents and grandparents if poss, but it makes you think
love steph

I thougt I would replay to your note Puppy farmer,To start with i have worked for this person many times there other breeds being 5 in total two of which they have been top breeders in.Yes they had a lot of dog but have you been there? they are well feed better then most pet dogs clean and happy.They also eye tested all there puppie befor sale so they are not as bad as you think.And in every litter there are good and bad ones.Everyone who breeds dogs are puppy farmers its not the breeding of dogs it the way they are kept which is the issue.

Are you taking about the Mal person Kennelsitter? If so all I can say is that I phoned this person and was given awful advice. This was the reason that I never purchased from him in the end. Had I listened to him I would have happily introduced a one year old male mal in with my three year old male GSD. If you know anything about mals (not meant disrespectful) you would realise the consequences of this

Puppy farming is puppy farming whatever the breed of dog. Where is the improvisation in the breed? Where are the show results? All the advice that breeders give to *Guests* here on Champdogs are (seemingly) not employed by the person in question

I agree with Bill and Naomi on this point , after being warned by someone and then doing my own small amount of research I agree entirely

Melody

The dogs may have been bred in clean conditions but doesn't a reputable breeder give a lifelong commitment to the wellbeing of their pups?

Yes you are right about a mal male and a gsd male,But some breeds do get along happerly togather he was wrong in telling you it was ok but maybe he thought your dog was a laid back one not a dom?Having been around hes mals and he does keep some togather find them all of good temperments my fav was Keepsake so laid back oftan took her up the woods for a good run off thelead and yes she came back every time.

what is the point of eye testing puppies ? - there is no point until they are 12 months old at least.as regards the actual definition of a puppy farmer as far as i am concerned and especially with a rare breed it is the person who breeds any two dogs together for profit without thought to the backgrounds or without knowledge of the backgrounds and without any concern of what you are going to get and belive me i have seen some of the worst products this chap has come up with and that's not denying there have been the odd good one but that is not the point, he has or had no other interest in the breed apart from breeding as many pups as possible sometimes with two litters advertised on this site, now that is not responsible breeding of a rare breed in my book. good riddance to him i say.although i wish he had taken all the dogs with him.i could not part with any of my dogs especially the older ones how anyone can do this is beyond my comprehension, he's made a few quid from them fine,now sell them on - what a thing to do! and yes in every litter there are good and bad ones but if you do your homework you are more likely to have a litter of good pups than just breeding because the dogs are of the same breed.as for being top breeder in two breeds well we all know how that mostly comes about in the showing world!

Some eye conditions can be detected in the nest, and owners of dogs who could suffer with these conditions have the litter tested as a matter of course. Well they do if they care about their breed. Jackie

the condition you are talking about is not a problem with the breed in question,- the persons ethics certainly are and as for being a caring breeder that surely includes a life-long committment to the pups ? difficult if you are 1,000 miles away
bill

In a condition such as CEA Bill it is impossible to get a pass after about 12 weeks, only a "Go Normal" so in some breeds it is nessessary to test puppies.

This does not alter the fact that we cannot condone puppy farming, only another reason why people should not buy from puppy farms.

Regards, John

I believe Bill's point about not eye testing pups before twelve months was specific to Mals.

Kennelsitter - you mention about eye testing being carried out on the pups (I would hope the parents of the pups are also tested every year), but what about hip scoring parents, endorseing puppy registrations, thoroughly vetting potential owners to ensure they are knowledgeable in the breed (and have their facts correct!), being responsible for the pups for the rest of their lives and provide help and advice to owners of the dogs he has bred. As a responsible breeder he should fulfill all of the above.
It is, however, my personal experience that he doesn't appear to provide at least one, the help and advice, as I have had owners of his pups come to me for help in trying to work through some difficulties. Perhaps you can confirm whether or not he fulfills the rest.

Jacquie.

Yes you are so right on a lot of things and you do have your breed at heart.But in mals there is an eye problem and by testing a litter at 8-10 weeks you can then see if there is a problem(bred collies cea/pra)so know a bit about eye coditcions and if there is a problem with a pup then it should be put down and the bitch not bred from.I know this may sound hard but in life you have to make choices some good some not.How ever you cant tell someone wot they can do or not!!you do wot you think best and some people may not like wot you do but you still do it??As for the mal being a rare breed?in Italy and the USA there are lods of them it only a small breed in the UK with very few people breeding.Its true you do get the make money quick in breeding but is that not wot life is about? Why do you breed ?

Its true you do get the make money quick in breeding but is that not wot life is about? Why do you breed ?

Oh my Goodness

Batten down the hatches .....I think there will be a flamefest now

If you really believe what you have just written then I feel sorry for you , I really do

Melody

I had a litter in my breed last year, the first after 5 yrs wont have another now for a couble of years.Wanted a dog to show of my breeding.Yes i made money out of the litter dont we all?or do you give your dogs away?Everyone who breeds make some sort of money out of it? mine cost me first stud fee, vets ,care of bitch rearing best mince beef cost.And vetted all homes turned down most new owners as not suitable for owner a dog let alone the breed I have.So I think I am a caring breeder and never had a dog returned .As from my handle I kennel sit and look after many dogs of differnt breeds most Show dogs and even vet other peoples puppy enquires so im not that bad honest!!!

I really pity you
No, I take that back... I really pity the poor bitches that have lived with people like you and been bred and bred because as you say life is about making money and in your case, out of them. Poor things

I am not sure that that is fair Naomi, I took it that Kennelsitter was saying he made money on the litter but that was not the prime motive he certainly does not seem to be a frequent breeder only that he has been involved in several litters through several different breeders. I have bred a total of three litters myself, I don't think there was any surplus from the first as a lot of my initial expenditure went against that but try as I might I could not help but make a surplus on the subsequent litters despite them being small for the breed. Maybe I was fortunate in having no vet fees to pay for the welping but on the other hand in an unexagerated breed and breeding from healthy parents I think that should be the norm. Personally I would not factor in the cost of my time because three litters in 5 years would not seriously be considered a substitute for employment. I did suffer a bit of nibbling to my conservatory door but that could have happened if I had bought a puppy in and was my own fault for incorporating it into the puppy pen so I have not factored the cost of a new conservatory into my figures .

I am not trying to be nasty Isabel . I don't like the thought of dogs being over bred etc. for money. I am not referring to occasional breeders in my posts but someone who bragged of breeding 26 litters of one breed alone last year with five + breeds on the go. I just think that this is totally irresponsible and kennelsitter is backing this person up saying that this is fine as it is done for money. It is puppy farming in every sense of the word.
Sorry If I offended anyone, I'll pull out of this now

I myself have had a total of 3 litters.
First litter of 8, 2 died bitch had eclampsia & I had to feed pups myself from 10days old. I male pup turned out to have ephyseal (I kept him) & have never added up how much his treatment has cost over the years but a fair amount with xrays & medication.
Second litter 6 pups 1 died. This time I had brought over an opthalmologist from UK & carried the cost myself.
Third litter 9 pups all healthy. Adverse reaction to first puppy vaccine & parvo. The treatment for this ran into thousand of pounds. Not taking into acount my own & hubbies time providing round the clock care for 4 puppies at home. Nor the closing down of my boarding kennels in the middle of summer (busiest time) & having to refuse any dogs under a year old for a futher year.
After the first litter I realised if I bred any more pups I would be lucky to break even. Now there is no doubt in my mind that if I bred again it would be how much off a loss can I afford.
But there again I may just be unfortunate.
Christine2

Poor you Christine. Hope you have better luck next litter.

Hi BB next litter??? Never......thats what I said at the time. A year later & 2pups are now fit & healthy young vandals who are looking good. Now I say mmm may be sometime in the future as long as I can produce good dogs!! Oh & saved up enough :D
Christine2

Everyone who breeds makes money? Let me see now.... my last litter produced 9 large breed pups (a good sized litter) ......
Actual expenditure: health checks on dam (hips and eyes); stud fee (+transport); scans; vet checks; call out charges when the bitch needed help 7 pups into whelping (in the middle of the night!); call out to remove dew claws and check pups; extra heating; bedding; whelping box; double quantity food for dam for about 9 weeks; quality meat, goats milk, eggs, puppy food etc for weaning pups - for 9 for about 5 weeks; parvo vaccinations x 9; printing costs x 9 for puppy packs; KC registrations x 9; club memberships for new owners x8 ..... and that is before we cost my time (let's average it at 8 hours a day, 7 days a week for 9 weeks - more in the early and later weeks - a bit of respite in the middle); the damage to my house (9 large breed puppies by 6 weeks make a huge impact even when confined), the extra costs of keeping 2 for an extra 4 weeks when people pulled out at the last minute - and without additional vets fees if anything had gone wrong with whelping or puppies......
The income from this - £3200 - which after all the actual expenditure (at least half this amount) is a lot less than the minimum wage! Hardly the brightest money making scheme.....
Janet

Someone told me long ago, if you're into breeding for any appearance of profit, Never do the Mum and pups side of it. The stud male side is the only way to go. Figure stud fees + selling the pick of the litter would gain something monetarily. Still not the way to go if ambitiously attempting make the first million. :rolleyes:

This said, I've never ever had the desire to ever get into this side of the dogworld and thinks that puppyhood, like childhood, is greatly overated ...so don't flame me, please :D

Consider also a small dog who has 1 or 2 puppies - even the tax people realise I lose money on breeding a litter.

Joan
Take the rough with the smooth

you state that in Mals there is an eye problem. - could you substanciate this statement please ?
The Mal is still a rare breed in this country, I don't think anyone is simple enough to believe it is anywhere else such as the us.
It is possible to export dogs to Italy with no papers at all and register them with whatever you like as the sire and dam with the Italian authorities, we all moan about the KC but at least we don't have this worry.wonder why certain people have gone to italy- makes one wonder does it not ? anyway i am dying to know the eye problem with mals as i am sure most other breeders are.you ask why do you breed? I have always bred for the betterment of the breed,checking out dogs with people who know more than me about the backgrounds of certain dogs that are prominent in the pedigrees of both parents and taking into account complimentary characteristics that would probably produce a good dog (wrights inbreeding co-efficient is only a set of probables so no-one is ever certain of the result) taking careful note of temperament and breed type. I consider myself to have been successfull so far and so has Jaquie who has bred one the most successfull litters in recent years one of which i am proud to be the owner of and have produced a very good litter from breeding on this bitch i obtained from her but only after careful study and consideration of the above , i didn't immediately breed breed breed for any monetary gain as there is little to be had if you do things right. of this litter the boy i kept has started winning BOB under some of our most respected breed specialists so i think i have done a good job.i have turned down a lot of people for pups as i 'c*** on a lead 'as the saying goes.There are still people out there who will just breed for the sake of it and it will never stop, but at least anyone with the well being of the breed and dogs in general can distance themselves from it and be secure in the knowledge they have done all they can to at least be responsible. I think the posts on this subject have brought out peoples feelings for this type of person and be it on your own head if you keep on defending him and his practices.
bill

well said

I agree with Naomi ...well said Bill , written far more succinctly than I could ever have done



Melody

Here, Here!

try to answer most of your topics as i said befor we cant all breed the perfit litter there are always gonna be the odd ones in the litter however carefull you are.As for two litters at one time one litter was an older litter he had a couble he ran on then decided to sell on.I know hes no longer in the UK but they had a lot of problem and had to move and where they are now was best for them.I know he would always take back a dog if asked but now they are out of the country it would be hard.But they have gave you some good one as you said!! new lines to the gene pool they may not be the best lines for you but they maybe of help later on in the breed.And a small gene pool is a bad thing in time as you DO need new blood at times.

he has introduced no new blood that i am aware of ,the lines his dogs are from were here already via Stormklouds dogs.all he has introduced is the type of person we don't really need. We do need new blood at times but from a better source than this. are you trying to tell us that the eye problem you claim exists in mals is cea ? well if it is then i can assure you that this is NOT a problem in mals,don't try to justify what he has been doing by claiming a problem exists and try to get the heat off - it won't work, we can do well without people slating our breed thank you very much, we already have the 'step away from them ' brigade and an unjustified reputation for aggression we don't need anymore.ask the people advertising in 'exchange & mart' where they got their dogs from it might be an eye-opener.
bill

I have read a number of your posts and it seams to me that you have some sort of personal grudge against the "one " breeder you single out. Whilst nobody is in favour of puppy farms it does seem to me that you are exaggerating the extend of breeding at the kennel. Two litters from the foundation bitch in 6 years is not excessive and is less than many of the so called respectable malamute breeders. The facilities at the kennel are good and the dogs are well looked after, unlike some folk who think it ok to breed these large dogs in a semi-detached house. Is it not true that one of your mals is of Malsabout decent like the one which was the foundation to the kennel you criticize. Is it not also true that the kennel in question has bred the first British bred Group winning Alaskan Malamute. I know you have said that some of the dogs are ok in the right hands but please less jealousy and a little more humility. I don’t think any handler can make a bad dog that good. As for the said breeder not supporting his dogs this is just more petty inaccurate sniping, I have personal experience and can refer you to a number of other owners who will disagree with you. The breeder is an internationally recognised judge and has bred far more successful dogs then have come from any one of the kennels that criticise him, maybe that’s the real truth behind your comments.

<<The facilities at the kennel are good and the dogs are well looked after, unlike some folk who think it ok to breed these large dogs in a semi-detached house.>>

I strongly object to your insinuation that all breeders of large breeds who live in semi-detached houses do not have good facilities nor look after their dogs.
I live in a semi and my dogs and puppies are very well looked after and provided for. All my dogs live in the house as part of the family, I would not wish to keep my dogs as kennelled puppy producers.

Me to!! I live in a semi , and although we have a very large plot, we do not have land as such. I also take exception to your comment. It is what you put into the dogs, of whatever size and breed, that is important. So in your opinion, it is OK to rear a giant breed litter, in acres of ground, but ignore them, but not OK to rear a giant breed litter in a normal home, but give them all the love care and attention that is possible!! I suggest you think carefully about the implication.

I suggest you read again my comments as I certainly didn't say it was OK to rear a giant breed litter, in acres of ground, but ignore them.

Thats what you were implying. I would rather one of my giants went to a home with a little garden ( semi detached!!) but was giving love, care, affection and exercise, then fot it to go to a home with acres of land, and was then shut outside all day.

Please don't try to tell me what I am implying or twist my words I have not said any dog should be kept outside and ignored

Im not trying to tell you, I AM telling you!!