Well I’m glad we have that clear, you are telling me what I think and what I mean.

As I have said read what I posted again, this time without the red mist in front of your eyes. Then perhaps you can make a valid comment

The facilities at the kennel are good and the dogs are well looked after, unlike some folk who think it ok to breed these large dogs in a semi-detached house.

That is implying that dogs should be kept outside

Melody

No its saying that they should have enough space

Well I bet you are popular with your neighbours, all I can say is lets just hope nobody ever returns one of your mals to you as you clearly will not have enough room to look after it.

Why should there be a problem with the neighbours?

I would not wish to keep my dogs as kennelled puppy producers and that is why you're my preferred type of breeder

I'm not happy keeping my dog/s in kennels in the garden, although I know it works for some people, and I wouldn't consider buying from a breeder who didn't keep their dogs in the house.

Fiona
x x x

i have no personal grudge against this breeder only a grudge against anyone pumping out pups like he has done and that does not mean the amount of litters. if you check the 'exchange and mart' you will find people breeding willy nilly from dogs they have got from him with no endorsments on the registration papers and they are of the "meet in lay-by " type of person - does this auger good for the breed ?and as for him being a top judge that depends on whether his opinion is valued by myself - it's not. you seem to have your facts somewhat muddled anyway as he did not breed the first mal to win a group ,that honour went to jim & jill broadberry of the hyteton affix.also the dog i have is not of malsabout descent this affix was placed on a dog that came into this country in whelp from the keikewabic kennels of maureen andersen in canada so to say it is of malsabout descent is technically untrue - it is of keikewabic descent.not from someone who has no imagination and cannot come up with an affix of their own and has to pinch one from an existing kennel so throwing breed records into confusion in the process or perhaps that does not concern you ? being as you have got the rest of your facts so wrong.so please no more about inaccuracies!a decent handler can make all the difference with a mediocre dog and i would have thought you realised that, i had the pleasure of having one of my dogs handled by a professional from canada at crufts in 2000 and it made ALL the difference,we could not show him like she did.we are still striving to get anywhere near.so much for petty innaccurate sniping.of course he has bred more successful dogs than anyone criticising him most of us do not try to make a living from our dogs, most of them are pets firstly and are shown for pleasure. this pleasure being diminished by the 'scratch my back and i'll scratch yours' brigade and no don't tell me thats jealousy - it happens.by the look of your email adddress you must be a malamute owner , maybe the owner of a bassbarr dog even,(not that it matters ) i would have thought you could check your facts and not post suppositions. by the way check out the facilities that one his associates has you will find it much lacking.and where do the six years come from ? he has not had mals that long.and he is not being criticised - only his ethics are and there is no doubt they are in question at least to people who care about the breed.
and finally your comment about jealousy, this really is a feeble defence you know, i am not jealous of anyone winning it is the dog that is suppossed to win i always thought,although i know a lot of the owners think it is them who have won and are on an ego trip.to say you do not condone puppy farms and then launch into a defence is rather contradictory.

Factual and concise .

Wonderful reply Bill

Melody

You say you have no grudge but to anyone reading your views with a detached eye it really doesn’t seem that way. You contradict yourself, first you say you object to anyone pumping out pups, but immediately say that does not mean the amount of litters, surely puppy farming in most people’s eyes means the amount of litters.
I can’t say I have ever checked exchange and mart for dogs and I can’t imagine any good reason to do so.

What you are really objecting to is somebody making a living from breeding dogs. You accept that he has bred more successful dogs than anyone criticising, and that your dogs are mediocre, but yet say in an earlier post that he just takes any old bitch and breeds, aren’t the two mutually exclusive, there really is no creditability in your position.

It is clear what you think of the show world, in my experience it is people who are unsuccessful who take such a stance in a vain attempt to justify why their dogs didn’t do well.

The dog you have is of the same decent as the foundation bitch I refer to. Can I ask how you came about this dog as you appear to be saying the person who imported her is not reputable.

As for defending puppy farms, at no point in my comments have I ever defended a puppy farm I am merely passing comment in regard to one kennel.

well i don't think you are reading with a detached eye for a start you have obviously some connection or admiration for the person concerned,if you really knew what you are talking about you would understand the regard which most malamute owners/breeders have for the breed - you obviously do not. by not meaning the amount of litters i meant the way in which the sale of these dogs is conducted i.e. not checking anyones background or facilities i know this to be true because i have rang the person concerned when they were advertising pups. i am concerned because i don't want mals to go the same route as a lot of breeds have and end up ,such a lot of them do chained up in back yards.i checked the exchange and mart because of an email i recieved and it is not just going on in one instance, it is happening in a couple of places and it all comes back to this one person - that is the whole point of all this - wakey wakey ! don't tell anyone to see through the red mist - you must be wearing rose coloured specs if you can't see a potential problem.and another wrong fact, he has not bred more successful dogs than anyone who is criticising not by a long way.as regards the world of showing yes i do hold a lot of things in contempt but in your seeming limited experience this is for "those who don't do well " my show results on my 'champdogs 'page spoke for them selves (actually i cleared it down because it was so large) for itself. and i do not regard my dogs as mediocre, i was talking in general ,please do not try to twist peoples words and take a step back and try to see what is happening - does it need to be spelt out or are you just an argumentive sort ? by the way what have you done ? the person who imported the dog you are referring to is long gone from the mal world so there is no real reason to go over this and i can't recall saying they were not of good repute just that i didnt like people who have no original ideas as regards kennel names and have to pinch one from somewhere else, this is akin to people not doing any research into the breed otherwise they would see what possible confusion could arise or is that beyond you ? i object to people making money from dogs - yes ,i do not, because of your imagined jealousy either, but because where money is involved a lot of things happen that would not do otherwise, i would have thought you knew this if your job description in your profile is correct, corners get cut all in the sake of making a few bob and this is why this person came into the breed , high prices for pups, a lot of people wanting them = easy money when you have a commercial kennel all set up.this is the whole point of these posts not to slate any one in particular , just happens this one is in the firing line because of his actions. as regards the dog i obtained i really don't think you have any reason to know how i obtained it ,only that it was from a reputable breeder who had done their homework and if you had done yours, you would know where she came from. it's all printed in the public domains.i did not say this person takes any old bitch and breeds, it was a generalisation is your comprehension of english so bad? i think you are just after an argument by not accepting facts and trying to push things along for your own ego!

I'm intrigued, mloot. Is this one of your "computer crime investigations"? Are you busy building a case of some sort?
LynnT

Hi Lynn The plot thickens as they say!!!!!!!!! :D

Hi Bill, I have the feeling that you are wasting your time, effort, and wearing out your typing fingers :D I agree withyou.......all the way :D

What is your definition of a Puppy Farm?

Mine is a place where puppies are produced simply to make money for the breeder , with no thought or care into the puppies welfare or aftercare .

The vast majority of people who breed Alaskan Malamutes in this country endorse their puppies so as to prevent this type of breeding for profit. They will use a good bitch and a good stud in order to better the breed. They will normally only breed a litter when they themselves are in a position to want another puppy for showing.

The person in question does not endorse the puppies , and does not breed only when they want a pup ...nor do they seem to breed to obtain as close to the breed standard as possible.

I check the Exchange and Mart and also Loot for Malamutes ..it grieves me that I see dogs advertised there. If someone has a puppy from a breeder and then has problems , they should be able to return the puppy to that breeder with no reason to resell through a papers such as those.

I wonder how many of the dogs seen in those papers have been bred from the person in question?

<<he has bred more successful dogs than anyone criticising>>

This is certainly not the case with his Mals. There is only one Malamute, out of the numerous Mal puppies he's produced, that has been in any way successful!

peasant !

Terms of Service

<<Two litters from the foundation bitch in 6 years is not excessive>>

But it's not just "two litters" in total is it!

Hi All,

I have just read this on a board tonight..

>>>>My aunt is looking for 2 boxer pups. she doesnt want black pups. cant cost very much. lowest price as possible. 1 female and 1male. can not be apart of same family. if you have a pup for $300 or less please email as soon as possible. thanx. sam <<<<<

Scratch head...scratch head.

I can tell from this post the amount of Boxer study has wwnt into this decision and hello ..2 boxer pups at the same time..

Some of the boards which are letting people advertise I don't think are very appropriate.. I am being polite.

night all

Pam

The problem is that when someone has made up their mind that they want a puppy, quite often they want it now - they don't want to have to wait and that can be the start of the trouble. It is just so easy to pick up the 'ads' papers and see loads of the breed you want- ready now! Secondly the price can be a factor. Someone phoned me, having been given my number by a very reputable breeder, asked all the right questions, gave all the right answers and when I told them the price (during a phone call the following day) she said she thought that was too expensive as she had enquired about another puppy from elsewhere that was cheaper! Suddenly all her good intentions had given way to cost. When she went to see these cheap puppies she realised why they were the price they were and didn't buy - but so many people would have:( So many think that if it's 'just for a pet' just looking like their chosen breed is good enough.
I don't know what the answer is....I wish I did(

id be more than happy to wait if i could find a breeder! im really struggling finding a lab.

Does it matter what colour..I have a list of breeders here if you like I will send them to you..in fact I will..

Pam

I have sent list to you..

Pam

got the list pam... thanks very much

Hi Alice
I have a resuce goldie/collieX who was originally bought from a pet shop for an 80+ year old gentleman. Although the poor old chap's wife had recently died, he had then had 2 heart attacks, lived alone and was unable to look after himself without support, his daughter decided to buy him a 6 week old puppy "for companionship"!!!The pup was bought for £450 as a pedigree Golden Retriever from the local pet shop. I was shown the pedigree (not worth the paper it was written on - using pet names throughout - Dam:HoneyBunny, Sire:Billy the Kid etc.) and the receipt for £450 from the pet shop.
She was probably 5-6 months when I had her and I took her to my vet to be checked over the same day I brought her home. Thankfully, apart from bad flea infestation, she was quite healthy. He also confirmed my thoughts that she was probably three-quarters goldie and one-quarter b.c. Certainly not pure bred golden retriever. Although she had no socialisation and was very apprehensive of everything and everyone she did settle in remarkably quickly and I have had no real
problems. She has the sweetest nature and I feel very lucky to have her.
But, what to do about people who buy puppies so irresponsibly and pet shops/puppy farms and the like who sell so irresponsibly and dishonestly, I wish I knew. Very best of luck with your research and campaign.

I bought Ziggy as an 8 week old puppy from a pet shop in New Malden, which is properly licensed to sell puppies/kittens (if that means anything!!!) He was not a pedigree nor did they try to say he was. He was £220 and on top of that he was thoroughly vet-checked and had had his first injection. Had all the necessary papers etc come with him. He is a real sweetheart, brilliant temperament, A1 condition. The shop was clean, he shared a pen with 2 others and it was very clean with no faeces lying around and they were all happy. It was obviously cleaned on a daily basis, as Ziggy was very easy to toilet train. I normally would not even consider a pet shop, but seeing as he is my first dog, and I don't trust those Loot adverts, I gave the shop a go and I have not regretted it. He is in perfect health, no fleas, nothing. The new vet we took him to was very happy with him and said he was in ace condition!! She didn't believe we got him from a pet shop. The pet shop did say he came from a puppy farm, although I have no first-hand experience of what they are like, but they can't be that bad if you look at Ziggy now.

I just thought I would share my positive experience of a pet shop, but I can appreciate how some are poorly maintained and exploit dogs. I believe the bad ones should be shut down!!! Maybe Ziggy was just lucky

Thanks,

CG

Hi CG,
Whilst you may have had a good experience an the puppies were in clean conditions this doesn't mean there will not be any problems later on. I hope that Ziggy is one of the fortunate ones but I have heard of people who have bought puppies from similar places, very clean and hygenic, only to have their pups go down with salmonella within days of leaving or suffer from problems later on in life. You must remember that very few people would buy a puppy that is in filthy conditions. Well I know I wouldn't!
I wish you well with Ziggy and as I said hope he is one of the lucky ones.

Glad you were lucky with your purchase but did you not wonder what sort of breeder it had come from, someone who was not interested in who he was sold to, just interested in geting rid at a price less that if they had bothered to sell and vet prospective owners themselves. Not there to help if you had problems. Hope he continues in good health but if you want another puppy please buy from the breeder direct. Jackie H

Thank you!! I hope Ziggy is one of the lucky ones too. I won't be encouraging people to go to pet shops, even if my experience was good, I am sure there are many bad places. It is a bit late now for me to take him back. I will do everything I can to ensure he is healthy and happy.

I am sure you do cuteygirl, and I really hope you have many happy years with him xxx

I am sorry Cuteygirl but I can't believe what I am hearing. I do understand that if you know no better then this can occur and whist it may seem your dog is 100% perfect you know no history of the dog or its lines which can be important if your dog takes ill and diagnoses is difficult.

Whist you think your situation I feel by your post you are almost promoting it which is what most people try to prevent. If your dog iss healthy you are lucky that is all.

If you buy for a good breeder then luck is not in the equation at all.

PS £220 is a lot for a dog not pedigree you could havegot a rescue puppy for a donation.

I am sorry if you do not like my post but I only write this incase someone else reads it and thinks "oh her puppy was OK so we shall go to the pet shop also" which is what I don't want..

Kind regards.

Pamela

Hi Pam
Agree with everything you say, except sadly there are no guarantees that any puppy will be 100% free of health faults, but with good breeders who health test, and try their hardest to steer clear of problems the chances are a lot LESS of getting a sick pup.

From a puppy farm it is just sheer good luck if nothing goes wrong, Russian roulette!

Barbara, was about to add what you said about 'no guarantees' when I saw you'd already said it But as you say, the chances are less with a caring breeder.

Also there is going to be back up if something does go wrong. When Lewis had his OCD ops, I practically had a falling out with his breeders about who'd pay the bills - they insisted they should, and I thought I should as I'd known there was a problem, though not what it was, and they had refused any payment for Lewis until and unless his sore shoulder (thought to be non-serious by their vet) was 100% better and he was OKed by my own vet.

I can also remeber the mental torture that Penny Redmond, the first UK breeder (or at tleast the first who openly admitted it) went through when a pup she'd sold developed PSS. She gave the new owners endless support (she would have taken the pup back, but they were very attached to it, and decided to see the poor little mite throught to the end). Then - at some cost to herself as it wasn't universally popular - she went on to start, and eventually win, what began as a one woman crusade to get all reputable breeders to PSS test deerhound pups.

That was brave of hewr. Now to show my ignorance - What is PSS?

Barbara, portosystemic shunt / liver shunt. It had been reported occassionally in wolfhounds at the time, but prior to this pup was not thought to occur in UK deerhounds. Fortunately it isn't common, but the dogs that have it get progressive liver failure, which is a horrid thing, and corrective surgery is expensive, dangerous and often not possible because of the form of the anatomical abnormality. The good thing is that it can now be tested for accurately at 6 weeks (in the earlier days the test was at 12 weeks and wasn't 100% accurate). It really was brave of Penny to go on such a campaign: she's a lovely lady but not the sort of person who likes disputes or back-biting.

Hi B, thats all we can do, our best.And even then there are no guarantees that a health problem won`t crop up.
Christine2

Brainless that is exacly what I ment...That if you buy from these places it is just LUCK no likely and if you buy form a breeder Luck isn't in it it is like;y to be healthy form a breeder and yes there is poor puppies but that is bad luck and not somwthing you expect. Hope that makes sense.

It other words you have for example 90% chance of a healthy puppy from a good breeder and 10% not but 90% chance of an unheathly puppy form these terrible places and only 10% chance of gettting a healthy...figures out of thin air but for point only..

We all agree I think anyway.....terrible places....

Pam

She could have got a pedigree health checked border collie puppy for that price in some areas of the country:( Gillian

I just have great difficulty understanding why anyone would pay such a large amount of money (around $350) for a non-purebred puppy when there are dogs out there who could really use a good home for much less. Why support any part of the industry?

Perhaps I come from the view that either a prospective owner:
does research, has patience, and finds a good example of a specific breed from a reputable breeder.....
or gains a dog through the various rehoming programs/shelters that are out there already. ( I hope I"m not muddling the meaning here). Limiting, but not as much as one thinks.

I'd support a pet shop that works along with the local shelter to display and act as an agent like some I've seen in the US. There is usually a small "handling" fee for the care and effort given. But not a huge profit, just enough to help the rent/operating costs.

I also believe that a good adult dog is just as important as the untested puppy. Unfortunately, that's not a common opinion. Just wish it was so. sigh. Just my humble opinion on the matter.
toodles

in the 'free ads' paper this week siberian husky x alsatian pups £300 (appx $450)
questions;

1: why do people put together two breeds such as these one of which has little complimentary characteristics to the other?

2: why do people pay this amount of money for a mongrel when for nearly the same money you can buy a pure bred dog from a reputable breeder ?

this is not the first time i have come across this advert so it must be a lucrative game and that is the why and wherefore of it all - money, never mind the priciples involved

There will always be a market for puppy farmed dogs because potential owners will be refused puppies from reputable breeders time after time for reasons such as working, having young children etc....
It's not always a question of not having the patience to wait for a breeder bred litter. Constant refusal means people will just look for avenues where questions are not being asked. I'm totally against puppy farming - it's appalling!! - but I can't blame owners for going there either. You can't have it all ways.

If only the Animal Rescue type programmes on television would take every opportunity to highlight the puppy farm problem, that would surely reach a vast audience. Or, even better, one of those investigative programmes

Lara, if two or three breeders turned you down as an owner of one of their puppies would you not sit down and ask yourself why and come to the conclusion that at the present time a puppy was not for you as you could not give it a satisfactory home with the care that a puppy requires. Or would you decide that because you wanted a puppy then no matter what that is what you should have, I don't think so you seem too careing for that. Jackie

Hi all thought this might interest you. He gives permission to cross post but it must be in its entirety.
Christine


BEFORE I DIE
Copyright Jim Willis 2002
http://www.crean.com/jimwillis

'Tis lonely here in prison,
I dream of sun, of fields,
I saw them from a window once,
but I don't know how they feel.

I've never known a caress,
a friend, a bone, a toy,
I'd happily companion,
a human girl or boy.

But some men have decided,
with selfishness and greed,
that my fate shall be a cage,
and for my keep, I'll breed.

What should fuel this folly?
My kind may bark in vain.
We care not for your commerce,
and few know of our pain.

We're hidden well from justice,
for our freedom same may cry.
God grant me, please, just one request -
Let me play once before I die.
*******

Dedicated to the millions of animals who never knew the sun and fresh air,
those regarded as property, and who profited human bank accounts. Please
help change laws that ignore animals are sentient beings deserving of
guardianship. Help
stop the lobbyist and illegal activities of puppy/kitten mills and petshop
trade associations, and some animal registries that allow this incredibly
cruel situation to continue. Visit the websites of national and
international humane organizations who are waging campaigns against this
abuse (such as http://www.idausa.org ), then write a letter to your local
editor and contact your legislators and ask them to pass laws against large
commercial breeding operations, animal auctions, and petshop sales.

Thank you,
Jim Willis, author of
"Pieces of My Heart - Writings Inspired by Animals and Nature"
http://www.crean.com/jimwillis
=====
Jim's book, "Pieces of My Heart - Writings Inspired by Animals and Nature"
available now in both the USA and UK. For reviews and a special fundraising
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83

-0770430

Randy and my Hounds - Maggie Dawg, Zoe Monster, Cleo P Hound, Toby Dog,
Abbie Rose, Sydney Barrett, Gilmour, Agnes and our Beagles Annie and Casey
Jones (basset wanna be's)

Visit Us At http://groups.yahoo.com/group/by20hounds/

Saving ONE basset may not make a difference to the world but it makes a
world of difference for the basset - Don't Shop Adopt A Homeless Basset.

Help Stop The Puppy Mills visit http://www.puppymillfighters.com/

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Christine..... ((((

Wish everyone could read this before entering one of those places..

Pam

Jackie, if two or three breeders turned me down for one of their puppies I'd be mortified but I'm definately not the sort to go and buy from a puppy farm. I was meaning people who want a pedigree dog but either aren't aware or couldn't care less about the breeding or inherited problems. God knows! there's plenty of them about.
I am very caring and very passionate about my dogs - and others

Lara, I don't doubt that you are a caring owner, I didn't mean to suggest otherwise. I was tring to question if it is those who have done enough research to find 2 or 3 breeders to visit and be turned down who are the problem. think it is people who wake one day and say lets have a puppy and look in the paper, go to a puppy farm outlet and buy something that takes their fancy or even wander into the store to get out of the rain and get hooked by a bundle of fur. Know a few of my breed who have been bought like this, without anyone explaining to the purchaser about the breed and how to handle them or giving them a contact to phone if they get into problems. The result of selling a breed who have a tendency to be strong willed & noisy, like this, they finish up in rescue more often than not. Where are the puppy farm outlet getting them from well to the best of my knowledge in my breed at least Ireland. Jackie

If you want to change the future, you need to educate the children. Get the message over in schools and they in turn influence their parents and their own children in their future. But will the schools let us in?
LynnT