My puppy (15 weeks old) has been on Forthglade from the day that I got her but over the last week hasn't been keen on eating it.  A friend suggested that I get a dry food to mix in as she may prefer this.  She suggested Burns, which i bought and started to mix it in with the wet food.  The problem was that she was only eating the biscuits and seemed to go completely off the wet food.  I am now just giving her a bowl of dry food and its gone in minutes!

the point of my thread is, as Burns says it is a complete food, but is it one that you would recommend?  I only want the best for her really!

Burns is certainly one of the better foods available, so if she eats it and thrives, then I wouldn't worry. It does tend to keep dogs on the lean side, but that's no bad thing!

I fed burns for most of my dogs life (she's 4 1/2) and only recently switched to another one.  I always found it ok but changed to Salters recently and most of my dogs health problems have gone.  she has also lost weight which is weird as most of the feedback re: Burns food is that peoples dogs don't keep weight on. 
I would say from experience it is one of the better kibbles and infinitely better than most things you can buy from supermarket and PAH and it has low poo output which is great.  Ultimately it wasn't the best for my dog but give it a go and see how your dog does on it as they are all different.

I wouldn't use it at all. I think it is an expensive bag of rice to be honest. Far better ones on the market IMHO.

BUT I always say if a dog is doing OK on a food and is the right weight and it works then good.

>I wouldn't use it at all. I think it is an expensive bag of rice to be honest. Far better ones on the market IMHO.

I agree...

You're forking out all of this money on a food made up of predominately cheap rice and hardly any meat!Not an ideal diet for a carnivore It is also extremely low in protein and fat.
It sometimes takes a long time for nutritional deficiencies to show up,so dogs that seem to be doing ok now can go downhill very quickly later on when their bodies just cant function anymore on substandard diets...

If i HAD to feed Burns i would supplement heavily with meat,fats and oils.

I pay through the nose for my dogs food,but it is a meat based kibble with NO grains.

Ktee.  Do you have a percentage breakdown of the amount of protein etc. that should form a typical dogs diet?

>Do you have a percentage breakdown of the amount of protein etc. that should form a typical dogs diet?

From the research i have done,24% has been indicated to be the bare minimum of Protein for the average dog.But as someone else pointed out the source of the protein is equally as important.There are many foods which boast high protein levels,but a quick scan of the ingredient list shows corn gluten meal amongst many of this ingredients other guises!Sure the protein may be high,but barely digestable which is absolutely useless.Meat is expensive,high meat dry foods tend to reflect this and the average consumer just doesnt want to pay for it

>Please would you pm me and let me know what kibble you do use if you don't mind?

Tessies Tracy i feed Orijen,the puppy formula to my adult dogs which is 42% protein and 20% fat.Real meat constitutes 70% of this food. I personally wouldnt go below 18% fat and 25 % protein

http://www.zooplus.co.uk/shop/dogs/dry_dog_food/orijen/44952

>My siberian husky was uncontrollable as a puppy until her trainer suggested we swap her diet and she recommended burns.

Pinkbrady what were you feeding prior to Burns? Often times owners feed high sugar/salt/by-product/preservative Laden foods which really messes the dog up,and then they change to a food without all of these unecessary ingredients and they see a dramatic change.Just because Burns worked for your dog doesnt mean another food wouldnt have worked better

For comparisons sake,here are some figures for fat/protein levels of raw meat,the dogs natural diet,see how greatly the values to differ from most commercial foods?

Values include meat and bone.DMB=Dry Matter Basis,which needs to be converted when comparing dry food to wet food.

Chicken Quarter with Skin - 60% moisture, 16% protein, 21% fat (DMB 40% protein, 53% fat)

Chicken Carcass - 62% moisture, 18% protein, 14% fat (DMB 47% protein, 37% fat)

Lamb Shank - 65% moisture, 23% protein, 8% fat (DMB 66% protein, 23% fat)

Calcium and phosphorus (combined) ranged approx 2 - 2.5%.

I get alot of my information from here This site answers every single nutritional and supplemental,aswell as disease/conditions question one could ever ask.It definitely covers every one of the questions asked on this thread.The above link is a backdate of newsletters,i urge anyone interested in canine nutrition to sign up.

>I get alot of my information from here This site answers every single nutritional and supplemental,aswell as disease/conditions question one could ever ask.

I'm being very dim - I can't find any information related to urate stones. Please could you point me to the right page? Thanks.

>I can't find any information related to urate stones.

Ok maybe i should have said "just about" every condition,although i hav'nt had time to go through every newsletter and nothing came up on the search option I've looked up this condition before and never seemed to come up with anything.Loads of info on every other type of kidney condition though

I did however find a link to this site that hopefully will be of some help to you.

>http://www.dogaware.com/kidney.html#links

Monica Segal is also a forerunner on canine nutrition et al. I have her books which are jam packed with great information.

http://www.monicasegal.com/health/kidney.php

Thanks Ktee. There are links to links that I hadn't previously found, so that's very useful.

Edited to add,the dry food i feed only makes up a small portion of my dogs diet.I add in fresh food to every dinner meal,and they get mainly plain dry for breakfast,sometimes with a dollop of cottage cheese or yogurt,and they get rmb's every night.

IMHO even the best dry food in the world isnt enough.It is void of enzymes and just everything fresh,real foods offer.Again IMO feeding nothing but dry food is the least healthiest option when it comes to feeding our canines,no matter how good it is.

BTW Ktee if you haven't found it yet I have a 10% on going coupon for Zoo plus not just for 1st orders etc. It just keeps rolling. I have used it 3 times now.

I am only using the puppy adult also. Think for the extra £1 you cant go wrong with the extra protein and fat.  With the discount it is working out to be £36 a bag which isn't bad when you compare quality. You use about 30-40% less of it also.

Never really been a dry complete food person really ever but have been very impressed with this food so far. Think I have bought approx 6 x 13.5 kg bags so far and used about 4 of these.

My small show breed get it for breakfast and sometimes a little mixed with tripe etc unless it is bones/carcass day which are fed alone.

Ktee

Useful links, many thanks

Ktee - I'm really interested by your comments, as I have my lad on Burns and he does have trouble keeping weight on - I'm really reluctant to change him as he has also had a sensitive stomach in the past.
Please would you pm me and let me know what kibble you do use if you don't mind?
(Sorry to change subject slightly!)

I had to take my Border Collie off of Burns. She was only on it for a couple of months but drastically lost weight, her coat became dull and brittle. She had next to no energy, in the end she picked at her breakfast and refused to eat her dinner.
I switched her back to CSJ command performance and she perked right up. Now she is on Arden Grange and couldn't be happier and healthier with it.

I do believe it was because Burns' food didn't meet her nutritional requirements. Oh and she's not a fussy eater, Burns is the only food she has ever turned her nose up at. This is a dog that will even eat fluff from the carpet

I like both Burns and Arden Grange. I came across Burns about ten years ago as my German Shepherd Max had a slight pancreatic deficiency and on the advice of the vet I started to feed him Burns. He had to take Pancreatic tablets at this time however after several months of being on Burns he no longer needed the tablets and no longer suffered with any pancreatic problems. I lost Max at aged 12 of April just gone- he would have been thirteen in August. And throughout his years I fed him on Burns or Arden Grange. It was mainly Arden Grange during his last few years and he was fit and healthy with no ailments throughout his life other than the slight pancreatic deficiency when he was younger. So from this perspective I would recommend both Burns and Arden Grange. I have a 9 yr old Spaniel and a 9 month old German Shepherd pup and both of them are fed on Burns currently and people do comment on their condition. I do supplement their food though with either Tuna in spring water, Pilchards, Sardines in oil or cooked minced lamb,cooked lean minced steak or cooked chicken several times a week as they do enjoy the extras as a treat. And If I am eating fruit such as Melon or banana etc then they will have some too. In between the days I add meat or fish they have Burns Moist food (Lamb) mixed in with their Burns complete food and they love the moist food too. There are no additives, colourings or preservatives, it is purely lamb, rice and vegetables. My GSD pup was diagnosed with premature venticular contraction (heart arrythmia) several months ago and at that time I had been feeding her on Arden Grange, however I have switched both her and my Spaniel over to Burns as I was told  there were lower salt levels in Burns so I thought this would be more healthy for her. She is on Beta blockers currently but I worry to death about her. She is such a sweetheart. Both dogs have good energy levels and nice shiny coats and bright eyes- never any problems with their ears or skin and my previous GSD Max did well on both foods, so on that basis I would recommend both Burns and Arden Grange.

I used to feed Burns to my dogs and they all lost weight (the recommended feeding amounts are extremely low) when I contacted Burns for advice they told me to add eggs and oil to the diet??? I now feed raw but one of my pups came to me on Burns last early year and I can catagorically state that the Burns of this year is not like the Burns of a couple of years ago. It definitely contains a larger proportion of rice. A couple of years ago if you added warm water to Burns it took ages to soak in and the kibble did not swell up. Now, put water on it and it expands like a sponge! The kibble does not look or smell anything like the old stuff. Edited to add in relation to the above post re BURNS MOIST FOOD. The puppy mentioned above had a really bad colitis and other problems and I was advised to put him onto a soft diet. I put him onto Nature Diet and he thrived. I corresponded with John Burns re the puppy's problems with the dried food and that now he was on Nature Diet and doing well. John Burns told me that I was spoiling the puppy and that all pups/dogs would choose soft food or human food over dried food. The cheek of it is that whilst he was belittling me for feeding Nature Diet, he was working on his own brand

Burns used to have the first ingredient as meat - this was about 3 yrs ago when I fed it to both my dogs. I looked into it recently because I no longer was able to feed barf and noticed that the first ingredient now is rice. Even in some of the cheeper foods the first ingredient is atleast meat and meat derivatives (not that I would feed any that said this).

It really has gone down hill although the new wet food and treats do look good. however I would still choose either natures menu, diet or harvest over it.

Out of curiousity I checked the Burns site and checked for the ingredients for the new moist food.  I'm rather puzzled that there are no added vitamins or minerals - and unlike the dry food Burns does not list the detailed vitamin and mineral (like calcium) content.   Not a lot of reassurance - at least for me - that is really is a "complete" food.    Otherwise, looks pretty good.

Contains:Lamb (58%), Rice (10&), Carrots (4%),
peas (2%)
Typical Analysis/100g: Protein 10%, Oil 5.4%, Fibre 1% , Ash 1.4%, Moisture 75%.

Burns is fantastic! My siberian husky was uncontrollable as a puppy until her trainer suggested we swap her diet and she recommended burns. The difference in my dogs behaviour was almost instant because it doesnt contain any artificial ingredients. We were also told other puppy foods make dogs bulk to quickly and they can have joint problems later in life but with burns they grow slower but stronger and healthier.

I read that dogs need between 18-20% of their diet to be made up of protein.  Is this true?

The problem with saying protein alone is you need quality protein for it to count.

I personally think it should be about double that.  This can be done with adding or feeding real meat.

If I had a grossly overweight dog I'd feed it Burns, that's all I could recommend it for.   My dogs had cow pat poos on it!  Burns & JWB make my dog's toilet very loose and they are marketed as being good for dogs that have sensitive digestive systems!     They do far better on Arden Grange/Nutro.

I personally think it should be about double that. 

Are these your thoughts or is this based on scientific research?

Not everything in life has tobe supported with Sciences. Historical evidence is all you really need.

Dogs are carnivores  you will read or hear the odd person say they are omnivores but I think there is more evidence that they are carnivores.

Put it into google and dig around yourself   you will find some interesting articles which will let you make your own mind

Mine can't survive on that at all. Mine is on 25% at the moment, and this is definately the level that works best for her. Anything less and it gets very noticeable. I think the amount of fat is also important, you can have too little.

It really does depend on the dog.

My dog has been on Burns for nearly 3 years. It was suggested to me because his tummy was never 100%. The difference was noticeable from day one and I would never change. He hasn't lost weight (but thats probably because of the 'extras' he gets !). His stools are perfect (if stools can be !) and regular. It really must depend on the dog because absolutely no cow pats here !.
He's a good eater and really seems to enjoy his Burns.
He has Pork & Potato - so no rice in his !.

same here, normal solid stools.

Just the weight loss was a concern to me.
Then again, my lad is still a gangly teenager!

Hi
This is all hearsay so no idea how true, but I was told recently that the Burns brothers had split up.  Allegedly the brother that is the vet had a bust up with the other one who was responsible for the marketing/business side of things - including the sourcing of raw materials.  His view was that corners were being cut by using cheaper suppliers etc etc.  I am told that things as far as the formulary and quality of contents are now getting back to how they used to be - not sure how long that would take to percolate down to us end-users though.  Also, I believe the non-vet brother has now set up another dog food company out of the USA but selling into UK http://www.burnspethealth.co.uk/

It is quite confusing as the orginal company trades as Burns Pet Nurtition Ltd and the new one as Burns Pet Health (USA) Inc..........both just referring to themselves as simply 'Burns' in the marketing blurb.  To add further to the confusion the new company is also using the phrase 'mini-bites' on some of its products which were certainly used by the original one.  I believe there are legal proceedings afoot.

Not sure if this helps the OP or not but worth being aware of - if you are not already.....I am always the last to pick up on gossip!

jan, when I was changing over from burns to Salters the person advising me told me that burns now outsource their food to someone to manufacture whereas Salters still make their own.  this might link in with the feuding brothers tale.

To Ktee and Blue,I just wondered why you feed the puppy formula of Orijen? Is it because its a higher protein content? If so,why is this beneficial? I feed Orijen as well and think its fantastic,my dogs have never looked better.I think I'll stop recommending it to all and sundry though just in case supplies of it run out!
Also,do you know who wrote the reviews on the dogfoodanalsis.com website?
And that BNaturals website is SO interesting.

>I just wondered why you feed the puppy formula of Orijen? Is it because its a higher protein content? If so,why is this beneficial?

Yes,i feed it because of the higher fat/protein,and i think the kibble size is slightly smaller than the adult one.I've always been a believer in feeding high protein to my dogs and the puppy just has that bit extra,i'm not sure if it benefits them anymore than if i would be feeding the adult one however.

>who wrote the reviews on the dogfoodanalsis.com website?

Dont quote me on this,but i dont think it's anyone inparticular,just a pet owner who came up with her own grading system.

I thought some of the reviews were by a group of people doing some analysis on various foods need to look again when I have a min

I generally don't bother with reviews just read the bag and make my own mind up.

I buy the puppy as it is smaller pieces and for the extra £1  I would rather have the one higher in protein and fat. Baring in mind it is pretty decent protein. I don't feed this only though. My dogs still get a variety of other quality meats and bones etc.

One thing I will say is the transformation in my pet boxer with the orijen has really been the winner factor for me. It " fits like a glove" with her.

I wean my new pups on Burns mini-bites and they do really well but when they reach junior stage I find it just doesn't put the body weight on them that they need, but find it's great on adults, keeps them nice and lean.

Thanks for replying Ktee and Blue.I also feed fresh meat and fish in addition to the Orijen but didn't realise I should be adding calcium to the fresh meat until I read the Bnaturals site.

Hi all Don't know about a bust up but the other Burns brother - not John the vet one has been at Crufts the last 2 years selling 'Robbies Holistic cuisine for dogs' and trading as 'Land of holistic pets .co.uk'.
Talking to him -the Robbies one - he seemed to recon his food was more natural than the other ones, its 21% protein and contains :-
brown + pearl rice, chicken, green beans, oats, spinach, carrots, chicken oil, seaweed, sunflower oil, chicken liver, oregano, sage, parsley, thyme, green tea, chicory, vits + mins.
It is a dried stuff that you add hot water to.
Ps our lot were not impresed:rolleyes:
Chris