On this website, several people have made claims about the protein requirements of dogs.  These seem to be based on opinions rather than having any basis in research.  I am not questioning the expertise of these claims - I am relatively new to the dog owning world - but it does concern me that there are no statistics or resources available to 'back it up' and whenever I ask for data I get no reaction. 

All I want to do is give me dogs the very best - cost is not an issue here as I think that everybody in my family is entitled to good nutrition be they human, feline or canine! I am prepared to spend even if it means making sacrifices of my own.  I am just really confused and need some help.  Can somebody give me some good cast iron solid evidence about dog nutrition and yes, I do understand the importance of high quality protein.

Basically, I would appreciate a percentage breakdown of what dogs require.

but it does concern me that there are no statistics or resources available to 'back it up' and whenever I ask for data I get no reaction.   These seem to be based on opinions rather than having any basis in research 

No disrespect Masiemum at all ,  most people are not sitting on the PC all day. I just check in a couple times a day for all but 5-10 mins generally due to a busy life, hectic job and a little pack of dogs oh and a family     if you ask me a question you can wait 24 hours sometimes more   it isn't because there is no answer to follow   I can assure you my comments are made after endless research BUT I will stress at the end of the day,  my comments are like so many others MY opinion based on my research and my understanding and interpretation of what I have read.

I don't go over and over science on here and dont' often copy and paste as half the people could pull Stats to pull you one way and then the other half can pull you stats to pull you again the other.

See my reply to you on the thread you ask me a question. I think everyone has to learn to do a little research themselves so they find understanding. 

I try never preach about what people should and shouldn't feed the dog and I often get annoyed when people do    Somethings work for others which most dogs wouldn't survive on.

However that dood food industry seems to become more and more profitable and the quality ingredients in so many foods seems to be declining year apon year I would honestly suggest that you don't rely on others but search the net and decide for yourself.

http://www.b-naturals.com/Nov2005.php?PHPSESSID=a51e54c4e199d1338a14b86bd361ceca

You  might find this page interesting ? - its from a link ktee (I think) gave in an earlier post. It says Proteins are in  groups of amino acids, essential and non - essential. It gives you the breakdown of these and I think it tells you the requirement for dogs.

HTH

We all form are own views because there is no truly unbiased, long-term, scientific study about exactly how much protein a dog needs, what sources are best, whether manufactured food is better/worse than other foods, etc.  Personally, I go with common sense.   I am not a proponent of  "natural feeding" per se - basically because I want to treat my dogs *better* than nature would if left to fend for themselves.

So I figure that dogs are meant to eat a diet mostly based on protein sources they could catch with limited amounts of vegetables and grains. I don't believe dogs are pure carnivores - they are opportunists and will "naturally" supplement their diets with small amounts of vegetables and grains.   So I feed my dogs accordingly and I don't get all worried about not "balancing" their diets.  They get a small amount of dry dog food (Arden Grange), a few dog treats, and the rest of their diet is whatever protein is leftover from my evening meal (chicken, beef, fish, pork, lamb, whatever), veg *raw or cooked) and some rice, pasta or potato.

There is no cast iron evidence - anymore than there is for people really.  If you think about all the studies that are done about diets for people, every three months there is some new "super food" or some warning about eating too much of some kind of food.  

Net - don't worry. 

Maisiemum,i have a pdf file that i have been trying to figure out how to link since you started this thread! But i just can not figure it out,it wont let me copy or forward the bloody link,it is driving me insane!!!!!!!
The only way i could post it here is to copy and paste it,perhaps admin can relax their "only pasting less than a paragraph" rule in this once instance
I do warn you it is heavy duty scientific reading that makes no sense to me :p It was sent to me by a vet student from one of her training papers,and after reading it i couldnt make sense of it,went straight over my head,so i couldnt tell you what exactly the correct protein levels should be :o

So hopefully admin will get back to us, and if i can i will paste it here.

Maisiemum....It is important to remember that there are a variety of posters on this board. Some are vet nurses, some work with animals, some are into dog showing and breeding, and some are experienced dog owners, and some are less experienced dog owners. As far as I know, none are vets.
If you come on this board and ask a question, some of those people will try to answer you to the best of their OWN knowledge, but that is ALL you should expect. Some answers will be based on personal experience, and some will be based on knowledge passed between others. None of us as far as I know are scientists, and it is not reasonable of you to demand or expect evidence /research based answers  from everybody, although some will know more than others. Most people give an answer in good faith and do NOT claim that their replies are evidence based.
Most of us on this board are keen to ensure that our dogs have a balanced diet, and between us we have reared hundreds of healthy dogs over the years without needing to become expert nutritionists. Maybe you need to reflect on whether the degree of information you are demanding is actually necessary.
If you really are so focussed on the absolute details of nutrition, and feel that the answers given by the helpful folks on this board are inadequate, as your post implies,then there are other alternatives.
Firstly you could do your OWN research on the net, as opposed to expecting others to find it for you.
Secondly you could ask a vet
Thirdly you could pay for a consultation with a vet nutritionist
Fourthly you could look for training courses in dog nutrition and get trained in it.

I hope you find the answers you are looking for.
Cathy

This is taken from the Merck Veterinary Manual which is available on line here: http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index.jsp

It is a proper text book but they have put it free online which is very use ful.

I know that some dogs need different types of protein - dalmations for example so please I have literally copied this sentance from the book to read more into specific conditions follow the link.

"Healthy adult dogs need ~2 g of protein of high biologic value per kg body wt/day"
"The biologic value of a protein is related to the number and types of essential amino acids it contains and to its digestibility and metabolizability. The higher the biologic value of a protein, the less protein needed in the diet to supply the essential amino acid requirements. Egg has been given the highest biologic value, and organ and skeletal meats have a higher biologic value than do vegetable proteins."
"The dietary requirement for protein is satisfied when the dog's metabolic need for amino acids and nitrogen is satisfied. Optimal diets should contain 22-25% protein as dry matter for growing puppies, and 10-14% for adult dogs"

Hope this helps - to me 10-14% seems rather low and I prefer to give around 20-30%. You wanted some evidence and here it is but I think alot would disagree with the amount that is optimal for adult dogs.

A special thank you to those of you who have been very helpful.  I have done a lot of trawling through the internet myself, but sometimes using search engines can be flawed - especially when you don't really know exactly what you are looking for.

To Pinklilies.  You don't know me, so please don't 'speak' to me like that.  I found your whole tone condescending and quite frankly rude and offensive!  People come onto this website for help and advice, not to be 'told off' by somebody they have never even met!!  In fact, one of the points I was trying to make in my genuine request for this information is that a small minority people are offering fairly strong advice based, not on fact, but their own sometimes evangelical adherence to a particular mode of feeding.  This is not useful and I will always question people who offer advice without the basis of research.  Indeed, I have also found this advice to be put across in an unnecessarily forthright manner.  Your approach to my enquiry is a good example of this!

As a relatively new dog owner, all I want is some good advice so that I can do the best for my lovely dogs.

Thank you again for those of you who were kind enough to provide me with links and I will definitely follow these up.  I am assessing whether to change my two dogs from Burns to one of the higher protein brands such as Timberwolf or Orijen and that is why I am looking into thisl.

There was not meant to be a "tone" to my message. If you felt that there was it was purely your interpretation. I was merely stating a fact....that most of us on this board are not qualified enough to give you the information that you so obviously want us to provide. I was also not being condescending in my suggestions, i was being perfectly serious and giving you the best advice and options if you wish to find out more. I feel it is still perfectly sensible advice. I do not feel the need to apologise as I feel there was nothing in it that should reasonably have offended you. Perhaps you would like to re read your original post and reflect on the way it came over as criticism of peoples failure to give you information. I STILL feel thay your best course of action would be to contact your vet who could recommend a diet that is tailored to the needs of YOUR dog. (for example high protein levels can be ok for working dogs, but not ok for dogs who do not exercise as much.  dogs with renal impairment need low protein, underweight dogs have different needs to greedy dogs.)The nutritional needs of a dog vary according to its breed, health status and level of activity, so I personally would wary of "carte blanche" views on diet, and would prefer to have something more tailored to the individual dog.

Nicely put pink!

Karen :D

Hi Maisiemum,

Your post has confused me,    originally  a few people offer initial advice after your intial question,  You them questioned where that advise came from, I believe these same people came back to you with links and comments and answered these secondary questions.

What confuses me where does this below then come from???

In fact, one of the points I was trying to make in my genuine request for this information is that a small minority people are offering fairly strong advice based, not on fact, but their own sometimes evangelical adherence to a particular mode of feeding.

The one thing you missed from your sentence above is IN YOUR HUMBLE OPINION.

I have had a look through replies to you and don't see any at all described above.  How do you know that the replies were not based on fact?  You don't know that hence the reason why you questioned it. Your questions were clearly answered.

I think on several replies you were told they the opinions WERE INFACT based on scientific reading you just were not sure if they were or not , it was then confirmed to you it was based on believed "factual" reading BUT that NOBODY could guarantee them as 100% factual.

Heavens look at the arguement about God  YOU have to research and decided yourself.

Hi Blue

I was not referring to any of the replies made to this particular post, but on various opinions I have seen in other posts whereby particular members have made references to certain brands of dog food i.e. Burns, being too low in protein.  As a Burns feeder myself, this concerns me and that is why I am questioning it.  I am not saying that these people have not researched the subject, but unless they back their arguments up with facts and figures, how is it supposed to be helpful to others?

I am also a committed Christian and find your comparisons of the protein content of dog food with God somewhat irrelevant!

Regards

Maisiemum

I was not referring to any of the replies made to this particular post

Yip I understood that hence the reason for my confusion and reply as the questions you had about the previous post was answered in the original thread.

I have seen in other posts whereby particular members have made references to certain brands of dog food i.e. Burns, being too low in protein

On the previous thread your question of concern was answered by the same people who made the original comments.  I was one of them and one of the people who passed the comments on Burns. You started this thread before anyone had a chance to reply to the questions on the original thread.  THEN After these questions were answered ( I check the dates and times of the posts)  you then made the statement;

In fact, one of the points I was trying to make in my genuine request for this information is that a small minority people are offering fairly strong advice based, not on fact, but their own sometimes evangelical adherence to a particular mode of feeding.


You had no knowledge these comments were not based on fact.  That was only your misjudged personal opinion.

I do not understand why after your initial concerns were answered you could then continue to say

"not on fact, but their own sometimes evangelical adherence to a particular mode of feeding."

I don't think anyone who was on the original thread gave comments based on their own sometimes evangelical adherence to a particular mode of feeding." that I personally think is a little insulting to those who took the time to pass comments THEN to follow up with additional advice.

I am also a committed Christian and find your comparisons of the protein content of dog food with God somewhat irrelevant!


I think whether you are a committed Christian or not is irrelevant to my point that you found irrelevant      My point was , which you seem to have clearly missed ,  science is like most things in life someone can always produce stats and literature to pull you one way and then the other  you have to read and understand what suits you and what you choose to believe is right JUST like God and religion.    If they can't get that 100% factual there isn't much hope for dog food is there.

Hi Supervizsla

I have had a look and yes, that does seem quite low doesn't it?  However, it seems to go against the argument of giving very high protein diets to dogs!

Thank you so much for your time and effort.

Maisiemum

That's interesting as my girls are about 20kgs in weight and get 150 - 200g or their food which is 26% protein, giving them 39 - 51g of protein.

Like you Maisiemum I am fairly new to dog owning and although had researched the breed I was going to get extensively I had done less research on appropriate diet when I got my pup about a year ago. However, the puppy trainer that we went to seemed very knowledgable about food and linked a lot of poor behaviour in dogs to poor diet. She highly recommended Burns because the protein is less than in other brands and stated giving a dog too much protein can cause them to grow and bulk to quickly resulting in problems later in life. However, too little protein will also cause problems in dogs. She recommended no more than 20% protein in food and we have stuck to that with our dog (may I also add she was sponsered by James Wellbeloved but thought so highly of Burns that is what she recommended). Our dog is only 13 months old so still has more growing to do but she is lean (but not skinny) and in perfect proportion. We were also told by this puppy trainer not to worry about the dogs weight, its more important how they look/feel as all dogs are different so may not necessarily be the stated weight for that breed. I know others on here prefer other brands of food and will have different opinions about the protein levels dogs should be getting but I just thought I would share with you what our dog trainer told us. As with all things different foods and protein levels will be best for different dogs but so far our trainers advice has worked for us. Hope this helps.

Hi Pinkbrady

Thank you for your advice.  As a cat owner, I have also done quite a lot of research into chronic renal failure and note that Burns (especially the fish and rice) also has a very low phosphorus content which is supposed to very desirable for cats and I am finding that this is the case for dogs also. 

Maisiemum

But don't take my word for that as I haven't really got anything to back that up fully yet!

> giving a dog too much protein can cause them to grow and bulk to quickly resulting in problems later in life.

The high protein and increased growth opinions have been debunked according to the latest research,this is one of those myths that refuses to die. It is the calcium content that is pertinant NOT the protein content.However many of the high protein foods also have high calcium levels,this is not the case with orijen however.
When choosing a food for a large breed puppy check the calcium/phosphorus levels. Protein digestibility varies so greatly,depending on the source, that it is almost impossible to tell how much the dog is digesting and how much goes to waste.

I still stand by opinion of Burns and that the fat and protein levels are grossly on the Low side,not to mention being mainly made up of cereals.I think if this food was fed alone,minus any extra's,for years,than malnutrition would slowly start to show itself.The thing is when these conditions show up they are rarely related to diet.
I'm not surprised that many dogs who's owners say they were "hyper" on another food slow down when fed a food with these low levels,they probably don't have enough energy??

Masiemum you can take or leave my advice,all of my opinions are formed from the many years of research i have done,aswell as the experience i have gained through trial and error with my own dogs.
I to fed Burns for a few months,and the downward decline i saw in my dogs could not be ignored.

>are offering fairly strong advice based, not on fact, but their own sometimes evangelical adherence to a particular mode of feeding.

I have a feeling that this comment was directed toward me,and if i have come across as "evangelical" i certainly dont mean to
I base my feeding principles around the fact that dogs are carnivor's,but can "survive" on the most meager of rations .Commercial food manufacture's have taken advantage of this by producing cheap,cereal based diets that just manage to sustain them,because they will survive on just about anything.
For me,the bottom line is dogs need a diet of predominately meat,bones etc etc,high fat and protein with very little cereal/grains if any at all,and the majority of today's diets are a direct contradiction of this.
Like i said this is just my opinion and  one formed on many years of research.I could be completely wrong and everything i have read could be complete bumpkass! But i will continue to hold this opinion until my dogs,and many others who hold the same views, show me otherwise,i havnt lost one yet to cancer or kidney,liver disease or any other of today's most prolific killers.

What a sheltered life I have lead. Until joining this forum I had no idea the extent some people will go to over-complicate a simple thing like feeding a dog.
It's not rocket science surely? I've managed it for some considerable time without causing too many problems.
To the original poster.... your dog's likely health outcomes will be largely decided by the breeder of your dog and how she chose and reared her stock (worming regime etc)
In this day and age  plentiful and healthy food is available everywhere you turn.As long as you have a dog that was bred well and fed with a variety of nutritious foods from a reputable source (and I consider MEAT,offal and good quality kibble nutritious) then together with exercise, clean water, mental stimulation and love, your dog should live a long and happy life.
As with humans, the dog's alimentary canal sorts out what it needs to keep for metabolising into nutrients and what to excrete from a balanced diet. Problems arise if an animal (any animal - humans included) has a genetic predisposition to be unable to do this: as in the case of allergies, IBD, bone dieases,kidney stones, auto-immune conditions etc. OR  is starving or obese obviously.
So to summarise ....if your dog was well bred and well reared by your breeder, there will be many normal things you can feed it on without recourse to sourcing a 'novel' product from Outer Mongolia or writing a thesis on it.
The breed that I have lived with all my life will (statistically) most likely die of cancer ( mine have been quite long livers thankfully) but I don't have the will or the where- withall to grow and rear my dogs food entirely organically nor am I able to filter the air that they breathe.
I just do a 'good enough job' and they seem to thrive well enough.Generation after generation..........

Ktee,

"The high protein and increased growth opinions have been debunked according to the latest research,this is one of those myths that refuses to die. It is the calcium content that is pertinant NOT the protein content.However many of the high protein foods also have high calcium levels,this is not the case with orijen however."

What is your reference for the statement above???  Any breeder of large breeds will tell you that puppies need to develop SLOWLY and overfeeding, oversupplementing and too much protein can cause puppies to grow too quickly.  Giving too much calcium can cause problems, but calcium will not cause a puppy to grow faster than they should.

If puppies grow too quickly their body grows faster then their skeletal structure can to support it.  So you have bones which have not completed growing, with soft growth plates at the joints that have not yet stopped growing and fused, trying to hold more weight than nature intended them to support at that stage of life.  The result is potentially life long problems with hips and legs.

Tooolz,

There are foods with protein levels of 40% whose manufacturers claim dogs need that much protein  - and there are foods with protein levels at 18% which claim that is the ideal protein level. 

Surely one is correct and the other is not?  So the issue is - which one do you believe? 

Neither dogs nor humans simply eliminate all of the "extras" if they get too much of something - irrespective of how well bred they are or whether or not they have a predisposition to some sort of health problem. 

So perhaps like you I do what I think is best based on my own experience with dogs - and borrowing from decades more experience from people I respect who collectively have raised hundreds of dogs.   Nevertheless, I sure wish someone would come up with the answer to this debate!  :rolleyes:

Cairnmania,
I posted   Problems arise if an animal (any animal - humans included) has a genetic predisposition to be unable to do this.
Traits in dogs are artificially selected for eg rapid and extrordinary (as compared to the norm) bone growth would need specialist advice...as I said from the breeder...Because of this trait certain breeds suffer from a tendency to bone conditions which are in the large part, hereditary. Obviously exceptional long bone length and mass are hereditary.
I had 2 cases of Barlow's Syndrome ( skeletal scurvey,an acute and painful joint condition in growing large breeds)  in my line at one time, years ago. There was thought to be a link to a deficiency of Vit.C so supplementation was advised. On investigation I discovered that it was inherited from a well known stud dog. I bred away from that and never had a case since. As I said - a predisposition to certain conditions, in-built by breeding.
As to the absorption of 'extras' from commercially produced dog foods, then if a large manufacturing company which produces say Royal Canin ( which I use along with others) hasn't minimised the health risk of these 'extras' with their extensive laboratory research, then what hope do we have, either for our dogs and our own health. I feed a variety both to my dogs and my family. I hope that our healthy gut will sort out the rest. As I say I can't produce my own air, water and UV rays so I do the best I can.

I sure wish someone would come up with the answer to this debate!

A huge debate... concerning not just our animals. As we 'speak' thousands of research projects are being conducted all over the World looking into just this very subject. A Nobel prize will surely be won by the researchers who come up with the perfect diet...THEN they will have to persuade us all to eat it.
As I said, my dogs and I lead a 'good enough life' not perfect but what is?

There are foods with protein levels of 40% whose manufacturers claim dogs need that much protein  - and there are foods with protein levels at 18% which claim that is the ideal protein level.

Just like to add.......Variety and Moderation are the key ...that and common sense.

Maisiemum
I have just re-read Pinklilies reply to you and cannot see, from what she's written, what you found to be offended about.
In fact her points very helpful and detailed and seemed volunteered in good spirit.
It certainly didn't deserve:
  To Pinklilies.  You don't know me, so please don't 'speak' to me like that.  I found your whole tone condescending and quite frankly rude and offensive! 

As they say you can't fire a volunteer!!!

Quote
"There are foods with protein levels of 40% whose manufacturers claim dogs need that much protein  - and there are foods with protein levels at 18% which claim that is the ideal protein level."

I think you would generally find that a dog fed the food with only 18% protein would need to eat a lot more of it to nourish it's body than the food with 40% protein.

The problem will be the balance of the other nutrients.  Say the vitamin and mineral levels are the same in both (they usually are not with higher levels in the higher protein/fat foods), then eating more of the lower protein one would mean the dog was getting more of the other nutrients, but if you look these lower protein foods also have lower levels of vitamins.  I suspect this is because the manufacturers know that more of it will have to be eaten to get the same nutrition.

I only need to feed 150 - 200g of the Arden grange for my girls to get their 2% protein per kg bodyweight, whereas they would have to eat over 200 - 300g to get the same protein, and also if the protein is incomplete vegetable protein the body will struggle more to utilise it.

My breed are very good doers and put on weight easily and I have tried especially with older ones to feed lower nutrient dense foods so they can have a bit more food, but have inevitably found that coat and muscle tone have suffered, so I prefer my Arden Grange which is 26% protein 16% fat as a basis for their diets throughout their lives. 

They get any human left overs too, and when I finally get my tiny dog freezer out from the mess that my hall is due to redecorating will get some meat to go with it.  My main problem is that I cannot afford some of the prices for dog meat, and to buy economically you need to buy more bulk than I have room for.

I have to watch the pennies with my won families food, and buy the cheapest cuts of meat etc, so I cannot splurge on the best that money can buy for my dogs, but certainly aim to give them a reasonably good diet on which they can be fit, reproduce and live the average lifespan for their breed with minimum visits to the vet.

Hi Brainless,

"I think you would generally find that a dog fed the food with only 18% protein would need to eat a lot more of it to nourish it's body than the food with 40% protein."

I think you misunderstood what I meant, or more likely I was not clear.  There are experts that believe that the ideal protein for dogs is 18% (or lower, according to the links provided earlier in this chain) - and others that believe that dogs need a much higher level of protein in their diets - irrespective of how they are fed (packaged/manufactured food or homemade, grains as a source of protein or no grains, only meat). 

Me too.  Mine are on Arden Grange and human food leftovers.

What a sheltered life I have lead. Until joining this forum I had no idea the extent some people will go to over-complicate a simple thing like feeding a dog.


You and I too

Blue
:rolleyes:

What am I like? Back here just as you predicted and me thinking I was above all this mallarky! It's me 'sheltered life' you see.Dont get out much.:rolleyes:

It is addictive.   I am ashamed to say