Hi everyone
I have a question about work.
I work 2 evenings per week 6pm-9pm and one morning 9am-2pm.
I get 4 weeks pro-rata holiday per year.
The other day I asked for two particular wednesday mornings
off work in August as being the summer holidays
I wanted to be at home.
The office Manager told me I could only have 4 wednesdays off per year
and 4 Mondays, 4 tuesdays,. I wasn't allowed to take say 6 wednesdays
and 6 tuesdays. The reason he gave is that I work 2 hours extra
on a wednesday and it wouldn't be fair!
surely i have a right to choose when i have my holiday within reason.
Is he right ? I hope he's not as i need a good argument :D
Thanks
Ali

I'm not sure Ali- I work two days and get 4 weeks pro rata- 8 days in total but I don't have to take 4 Thurs and 4 Fri I can take them all on Fridays if I wanted to:o

Stacey x x x

Hi Ali,
I don't know anything about employment law, but for what its worth, I work part time and just as my contracted time is calculated in hours (i.e. 18 hours per week), my annual leave entitlement is also calculated in hours. This means that I can take my leave when I want ( well, more or less!) In your situation, if you took 2 Weds. off that would account for 10 hours of pro-rata annual leave entitlement.I think that by calculating your leave in weeks rather than hours it just complicates things because your daily working hours are variable.
Another thought is that it might be helpful to check your contract of employment. Does it actually specify that you are only entitled to 4 weds. per year etc.?
If you have a Human Resources Dept. it might be a good idea to speak to them.

regards
Clare

Thanks Stacey and Claire for your input.
I have checked my contract and it says;
Annual Holidays-
Employees are entitled to 4 weeks paid annual leave excluding public and bank holidays, calculated in accordance with the provisions of the Working Times Regulations 1998.
Annual Holidays shall be taken at a time to be agreed bt the employer and the employee and, failing agreement, as directed by the employer. The employer shall give not less than 8 weeks notice of requirement for the employee to take annual leave.

Thats it.
When i re-read my post I didn't make it clear why I wanted wednesdays. My youngest son goes to Nursery one day a week(wednesday) , which costs me £29.50 per day. During the summer holidayts when my eldest is off school it costs another £26
to send him aswell so it costs £55.50 to send them both when I am working. I work 5 hours on a wednesday morning
and earn £30, so I am nearly £26 out of pocket every time I work. I have considered cheaper childcare options but my youngest has been going to this nursery since he was 18 mths, he is 4 now, and I would never in a million years change him, he is so happy.
The most annoying thing is that my original hours were Mon, Tues, Weds evenings 6pm-9pm and I only changed my contracted hours to help them out as they were a person short on a wednesday!!!!! If I hadn't been so helpful this problem would never have arisen!!
Ali

Ali,
It seems that if you and your employer can't agree, then you have to do what s/he says anyway!
It would be good to be able to negotiate this properly, without it becoming too much of a rub for either of you. I suppose if you were to take your leave in blocks of one week then that would amount to 4 weds., but it might be useful for him/her to realise that it will cause much less disruption at work for you to be absent on leave for a single morning, rather than a whole week (but of course s/he might not see it that way!). I think I would be inclined to mention that when you agreed to the change in working pattern you did not understand that this would effect when you could take your leave.
It seems that unless you can get some compromise, you are stuck........but the Government are supposed to be very much into enabling people with childcare responsibilities to work ( I'm not on Mr. Blair's payroll, honest!:D)
Sorry I can't help more
Clare

No Claire you have been a great help.
I think I am stuck!!
The only other thing I could do is swap shifts with someone who does a wedsor thurs evening.
I even said to the manager that I don't care if he only pays me for 3 hrs instead of 5!!! if he wants to be pedantic. I am not after bludging extra holiday time, just trying to avoid being out of pocket. It is only the summer holidays it is a problem anyway, with it being 6 weeks. Most holidays are 1/2 weeks long thats not to bad but the summer hols it works out it costs me approx £156 to work!
Ali
Never mind, come september when Callum starts school I will be going back to my original job, so its not too long! :D

Hi Ali,

As a manager who has had part time staff the way may employer calculates the time is in hours, similar to how Clare describes it. The calculation is:-

Number of standard hours in a full time week (in my company this is 37.5, some are different) times number of weeks holiday per annum (in your case four weeks) This give the full time allowance in hours. You then calculate the %age of a full week that you work and apply this to the full time holiday hours to give your holiday hours. So, at 37.5 for full time the holiday allowance is 150 hours. You work 11 hours I think? This is 29.33% of a full week, therefore you are entitled to 44 hours holiday per annum.

Even if this isn't the way your company does things it is a fair way of working it out and should allow you to take more time off on Wednesdays without your employer feeling they are being done!

HTH, Good luck,

Linda

Hi Linda
Thanks for your help.
Yours is a much better way of working the time out
As i said before I am not trying to bludge extra hours I just want to save myself having to pay out nearly £160 extra during the summer holidays! Its more than I earn!
I wish you were my manager Linda :D
Another thing is I have covered loads for the company, ie if someones off sick I have come in at short notice. I am also covering some saturdays for them during July and August, and they are arguing over 2 measly hours

Sounds like you are exactly the sort of person your company should want to keep! and a good example of why canny employers are keen to keep people at work, part time or otherwise, while their families are small. If handled properly part time workers provide great additional flexibility to a workforce and also retain skills which would otherwise have been lost.

We all know people come to work for money - otherwise why would they pay us! So if its costing you to go to work then why would you? Your manager must be able to see this!

Put your boss onto me and I'll tell him/her how luck they are!


Linda

Because I work shifts (12 hours at a time) my leave is calculated in hours rather than the normal days - that is 30 days x 7.24 hours which comes out at 222 hours a year. I then count the amount of leave I am taking in hours so it wouldn't matter which day I took off. Could you suggest to your boss that your leave is calculated in a similar way?

Joan
Take the rough with the smooth

hI Joan
After everybodys advice I think I am going to suggest to my manager that for those working odd days/part time, that they do calculate leave in hours. It seems fair for the companys point of view and in my case allows flexability when i need it.
Hopefully I can appeal to his better nature
Ali

Hi Ali
miserable person isnt he. I bet he wouldnt work for nought. My answer to my previous boss who could be a bit unfair now and again when I needed the odd day off (after sometimes giving him 2-4 weeks notice) was 'what would you do if I were ill?. You would have to manage somehow with my not being here and I would still be entitled to my holidays at another time.' Slight blackmail but it did work .... sometimes
Gina

Exactly Gina :D
I have been more than loyal for that company. In the year I have been there I have never had to take time off sick for myself or my kids! I regularly work extra for them. In fact working out on average the extra time I have worked I should be entitled to an extra 8 days holiday this year!!! And most of them were worked at weekends, so as they are not my contract hours, should I be payed @ 8 hrs a day for 8 saturdays!!!!!!!!! I think from now on instead of getting the overtime i should insist on time in Lieu!! :D

Ali, I thought you said he didn't have a better nature!
LynnT

He hasn't
Perhaps I should cry :D

Sorry don't want to upset all men here, but I think the key word here is HE:D
It is often male managers who don't understand about childcare etc, although you do get the odd career orientated female I grant you;)
Anita

Hi Ali

I should have another chat and explain the reasons.If you get nowhere then I should go to your HR Department and explain the problems.Ask them to mediate on your behalf if you deem that he is being totally unreasonable and is saying no just for the sake of it. The should have company terms and conditions that should have a greiviance procedure If he has said no for legitamate operational reasons then unfortunately there is very little you can do but a sign of good will and Management is compremise in difficult situations that could result in conflict. Another thing if you have been working there for a year you have rights as an employee and if he is refusing and the reason why you need to take the time off is child care problems it could be deemed to be discrimination.

Hope some of this may help

Lucy

Or just so you dont always have to take time in lieu if you want the money, tell him he is asking you to work on days which suit HIM to help him out when he is short staffed and so you in turn want time off on days that suit YOU!! I'd drop a hint next time I spoke to him - always been the unofficial office shop steward
Gina

Hi Ali,

Just caught the thread..tricking but not much you can do..

even if you wanted to it would not be worth the bother..

You will need to take notes.. write down the reasons you want the holidays..cost etc..
Then jot down all the supporting reasons why he should give you them such as extra hours, attendance( Very important), Loyalty, everything. Don't miss anything out.

Then arrange a meeting with him. Be firm but fair.

Can I ask how long you have worked there.

Employment contracts are written to trick us I am sure. I recently managed to negociate 3 months notice into mine but before I did I backed up the reasons I wanted it and it worked OK for me. Probably slightly different jobs but being honest in a fair way even to your employer can earn you respect. if not I would question Job.


Unfortunatly in the UK part timers are still exploited regardless of legislation.

Do you know we are still not legally entitled to Holidays and holiday pay. Yes it is changing with the EU but only on what the government wants to change. I knwo people will argue this but it is true. We are not legally entitled to a lot these days.

I think if you don't tackle it you will be affected by it and it will get to you and affect your job.
Recentment builds easily and confict within companies is still one of the biggest problem.

Dont' think I have helped much but I sympathise.

Pam.

PS I am the only female in my company and I recently introduced part time hours and flexible shifts. My company has only worked 9-5.30pm for 10 years. They are pleased with the results and impressed with the flexibility of people in return.

Pam

Since October either 1999 or 2000 (can't remember which) all employees are legally entitled to 20 days paid leave or pro rata for part time employees. BUT the 20 days can include bank holidays

Tracy

PS this post is not meant to sound nasty but I can't seem to word it any better

You are right Tracy and I agree when I re read my post it say we are not entitled meaning everyone..what I was trying to say which kind of went AWOL was that unless you are in a permenent contract wiht written terms and agreement etc you are up a gum tree. I know the case well in 1999 which brought around the annual holidays etc and the Unions that fought for it.

If you are part time they are still "scre....g" you though for example if you work 2 hours a day 4 days a week and you are entitled to 4 weeks this would give you 32 hours off..

If your Company closes Xmas day, boxing day, new years day, 2 nd this is only 4 days but I have seen companies trying to say that that equates to 32 hours. It od course doesn't. There are cases everywhere still going on.

Hopefully though soon once a lot of cases have been address and that companies are prosected or fined for it it will be brought in line.

Employment law is one of my favorites along wiht contract and the crazy way companies treat people is unbelieveable.

If you have a grievence you have 2 options small claims or tribunial both cost you and your legal support of you opt to take it is payable out of any money received so you get caught in that. You get no legal assistance now for tribunials.

One of the reasons I actually studied Law was I left a company I had worked for for 12 years and took them to court. 2 years it took but I got and out of court settlement and fantastic references as part of the deal.

I will put a sock in it now as i can go on and on..and my ears are burning ..

Pam

Thank you for all your help and advice
I went in to work last night and suggested the hourly rate leave instead of the day rate leave AND he has agreed!!
He also agreed that swapping shifts will not be a problem to help out over the holidays AND if I want to take anytime unpaid I can!! (ithink anyway you are entitled to 3 months leave during your childs first five years anyway (unpaid) )
I did have to stomp my feet a bit though and told him that the only reason I am having this problem is because I was helping his staffing problem out by doing a morning!!!
So success and I am happy again.
Ali

Unfortunatly in the UK part timers are still exploited regardless of legislation.

made me smile for a moment with that statement. After reading this thread, I realized that UK is much much more progressive and kinder to part time workers than US is. Part time system there is helping to destroy benefits of full time workers. Why hire a full time worker, when you can pay 5 people to work without paying insurance, vacation, and retirement benefits and be able to shift them all over the clock for the same cost? It does depend for various "rights" since each state has different policies for workers.

In NM I was horrified to discover that the only mandated rights a worker had was to be paid time and a half for over 40 hours a week.
I quit a part time 3 month temp job that had me working three shifts per week (2 -14 hrs + 1 -8 hr) without any breaks and I lost my unemployment benefits from my 8 years in the military. The job almost killed my health in the first month I worked there, but it didn't matter. Despite my written complaints on how cruel it was to be working a counter for 8+ hours straight and that I was about to be fired when I quit, the State saw it as being "given a chance to work" and I lost the appeal. Now I know better. I could have taken the firing and kept my benefits, but I was worried about "future employers" looking at my history. Live and learn :rolleyes:
Needless to say, I don't plan on returning to that state anytime in my future. I'd say there are about 42 other states with much better employment conditions

Sara you are so right but believe me while there are companies who do follow the legislation there are as many who don't.

Most companies here do not offer over-time allowances until 40 hours is met and alot don't eben when it has been. In fact I know of 2 huge DIY chains who are guilty of this.

Part time has taken on a whole new rule in the UK also with Pros and cons to both.

Yes it allows woman to go back to work part time without all the demands etc but generally Part-time jobs are not generally a chosen carrier path but extra pocket money. ( NOT ALL no attacks please) All lot of companies use part timers when there are full time jobs avaliable to avoid over time payments, holiday pay etc, etc..

While a student I work in customer service for Homebase. I was contracted for 8 hours which is what suited me when studying heavily. I generally worked approx 16 hours though. Not acruing addtional holiday for the extra hours, nor sickness benefit, no over time payments and they were very clever with the shift so you never work shifts where you were entitiled to a break.
If you wanted to work extra hours you had to do for example a 9-12 shift, then a 2-5 shift so no breaks were given.

I have to say as a permenant job these terms and conditions would not have suited me but as a student just looking for some extra money it was fine and believe me I used it to my advantage. I never worked extra when it came to exam time and at xmas etc I told them to bog off..LOL

I do support you in the conditions of work in the US and also Canada in comparision we ( UK) are proabably better off. I know you get less holidays than us and I believe sickness beneifits are poorer.

I have been in contact with a few companies in Canada as I have been thinking about returning just to see what is out there and what I would be looking for. I did notice that it took a good few years to gain any worth while benefits.

If only life was simple.

Pam