Quite agree Blue, and I think it has come to the point now where the breed clubs really need to address this issue and put a ceiling on what club members charge for puppies.

I can remember some years back (maybe 15) when Bulldogs were not so high in price compared to other breeds.  I think I remember them being less than double the price of my breed, and I think now they are at least 3 times the price and nearly four.

When I bred my first litter  in 1995 I remember Dobermans for example of comparable pedigree were about a £100 more than my breed, and now it seems they are about £150 more.

So why has this price hike happened in some breeds, out of all proportion to increased costs?

No idea why the price hike really,  whenever I've asked people at shows why Bulldogs are sooo expensive the stock answer has always been difficulty breeding/rearing and 'sections', but any breeder of any breed could claim the same reasons.

See locally in the free-ads, bulldog puppies go for the same prices, no mention of KC registration, some actually say 'no reg' or 'no papers'   some adults also available - for the same price

If Joe Public thinks that is the price everyone pays for a puppy then thats what will be paid.

What I don't understand is why the breed club/s have allowed this to happen, perhaps if they placed adverts/submitted articles to the popular dog magazines advising people that well-bred bulldog puppies should be no more highly priced than the average breed and that any silly prices were just people making money, Joe public would be more likely to want the well bred ones. 

I think a dog the size of a Bulldog, with perhaps a C section or other veterinary expensive interventions etc could easily cover the costs in most litters with something left over for the other stock or some show entires if pups were £1000 maximum.

I think a dog the size of a Bulldog, with perhaps a C section or other veterinary expensive interventions etc could easily cover the costs in most litters with something left over for the other stock or some show entires if pups were £1000 maximum.

Couldn't agree more.   Breeders charging a lot more than this must think the general public and other breeders can't count

I hope they don't forget the tax man can count

well thats your opinion,im going to defend them arnt i when theyre my breed of dog,
i breed for the love of the breed and certainly not for profit,
to be honest us bulldoggers get sick and tired of everyone slating our bulldogs one way or another,
and yes it does get personal at times,wouldnt you if it were your dogs!!!

i think a little jealousy comes to mind here,
do you tell the tax man?

I am struggling to understand how breeders can say they breed for the love of the breed and then charge those prices? Nobody can tell me that they are not making a profit at those prices.

Whats the point! you obviously have your own opinions and i dont appreciate you sayin we dont breed for the love of the breed. i dont need to explain myself to any of you,
i think this topic should be locked, as its obviously going no where.

We don't lock topics because someone disagrees with another persons POV I'm afraid. If you don't want to carry on with the discussion then I suggest you don;t read this particular topic

> ,im going to defend them arnt i when theyre my breed of dog

No-one is slating the breed just the overpricing, and that the breed as a whole does not seem to be addressing this, or asking if it is????

i breed for the love of the breed and certainly not for profit,


That is my point, nobody is picking on anyone in particular. I am assuming as a breeder not breeding for profit you sell your surplus puppies to nice pet homes at modest prices to cover your costs. ?? 

I am involved with a breed that gets slated for a few things also BUT most of this comes from the back yard breeders lack of care for the breed, breeding a lot of poor examples of the breed not just in looks but in health for profit.

i think a little jealousy comes to mind here,
do you tell the tax man?

Oh please if any of us involved in this thread was jelous surely we would jump on the same band wagon.  It seems to me most commenting breed and show dogs that are sold for a modest amount barely coving costs.   Similar thing has happened to my breed so that is why I feel it is so critical for the breed clubs of these breeds need to sort it via their membership.  If everyone stuck together.

Regarding my Taxes, I have a professional occupation, run a seperate small property business my taxes are 100% in order. Profits and loses on everything are accounted for.   I certainly don't need to breed dogs to keep myself in the life style I lead. In fact I would be a whole lot richers if I didn't show them. A LOT RICHER.

The whole point to my comments isn't to be personal and start being childish it is because I can genuinely see that the breed is beoing distroyed.  " another one bites the dust"..

your just have to read the papers including the dog papers to see that local government is taking a hold on dog activities and the " over pricers",  back yard breeders  are ruining it for everyone else.

i think this topic should be locked, as its obviously going no where.

If 1 or 2 people read this and stop and think whether it be a breeder, a buyer or a someone who loves the breed then it has gone somewhere.

Education is what it takes , collective action will stop this breed being distroyed futher or the Taxman just hope it is the first one/

Louzola,

Perhaps to win us over you could give us a full itemised list of the costs of whelping a litter based on the breed average.  Perhaps use your last litter as an example.

Just a thought.

>Nobody can tell me that they are not making a profit at those prices.

Is it really such a taboo thing for a breeder to make a profit? I'm sure there are breeders out there who adore their dogs,spare no expense raising their litters,do everything right and still come out on top. I wouldn't slate a 'responsible' breeder who made a profit at the end of the day.After all love doesn't make the world go round

With the attitude regarding this around here i doubt very much that anyone would "admit" to making any money from their litter.It seems the more in the red a litter puts a breeder in,the better

ok i just had a litter of 3 recently,not for sale may i add,cost of stud 500,c section 500,
sadly we lost the tiny one,now have two,from 4 weeks they will have complete food 5 times a day and fresh mince,
plus puppy milk,im keeping both so no profit what so ever here but i have two beatiful babies for approx 1000 plus feeding costs.
if i did sell one for 1500 i would probably profit around 400 which is nothing given the time spent rearing them,take out 100 vaccinations and ringcraft costs,
thats nothing imo.ive never had massive litters,the most being 5 which i kept 3 back for myself for showing,sold other two for 1500 and yes i know it makes 3000,
but the food costs were more as there was 5 of them,and then costs of showing,travelling etc,not much here too im afraid,i think what we did make just went back into the dogs really,hope this helps.

A reasonable surplus on a litter KTee that obviously goes back towards the upkeep of the dogs and helps defray costs is perfectly acceptable.  I work on a rough principle of 3 pups covering the costs of the litter alone, One pup Stud fee, second feeding, and third the rest etc (includes health testing of the dam).  This means 3 pups sold (at £550 - £600) to break even.

This means a litter of 3 or less if keeping a pup is a loss.  If there are veterinary costs, then add in another.

So with breeds that average 5 or 6 pups the breeder should cover their costs with a little towards upkeep and showing.  I have had smaller litters and made a loss, or had unexpected Vet assistance, or travelled very far, or had bitches miss which all involve expense, but on average cover rearing costs of the litter excluding the hidden ones and investment in stock, showing, and my time.

If breeders get into obvious money making it strays into a business and not a hobby, and most people do not want to get involved with the running of a small business, the dogs are their hobby/pastime.

I do keep track of what I spend on each litter and it is now around £1800, but the last litter was £3000 because of travelling to use an overseas stud (I could have lost £17000 if no litter), the litter before that was £2000 because of emergency out of hours for Mastitis.

sorry forgot to add from the 3000 we had to take out 1000 for stud,c section etc,
i know there are people out there that breed for profit but those that us who show do genuinly love the breed,
i brought my 8 year old girl for £850,back then that was a lot too but i wanted her,
shes from good healthy lines and still going strong today bless her,i have seen puppies on certain sites going for 2500,
ive emailed them to ask why they charge this much and they reply with some ch names in the ped that i know have been dead years,
i ask if they show them and their reply is "oh no pebbles is our family pet"
its these idiots we need to stop not us who genuinly love them.
also i have mine blood tested as they are hard to concieve at a cost of £40 a go,this time i had 2 tests,
as for the baby i lost i was heartbroken and didnt think in terms of the money at all,
if us breeders did change the cost of puppies i still think the puppy farmers would charge what they do,
in future mine will be endorsed not for breeding,actually only one owner who had a bitch from me had a litter of 3 from her,
she kept one herself and her daughter and friend had the other two which was nice.

That is exactly what we are saying the breed clubs need to set a ceiling for what is reasonable to cover/defray costs, allow for investment in the line.

As you said £850 when you bought your old girl is about what I was referring to, about double what my breed were at the time.  Allowing the breed is vet expensive (though I note few seem to health screen, hips)  I hope they do hearts?

I believe even with C sections and extra veterinary intervention all round a top price of £1000 would give the same sort of covering of costs and a little to put towards the dogs that most other breeds agree as reasonable.

In my own breed we all agree a common price with no more than about £50 variance, it has stayed about the same compared to peoples earnings through the years I have been in dogs.

My first Dog was £350 in 1988, which was about 70% of my monthly earnings.  My pups now are about the same proportion of what my 20 year old daughter earns in an office job each month.

Bulldog pups were £800 around 1990 when my monthly salary was £600, so compared to my daughters wages ought to cost now no more than £1150.

The majority of other breeds have remained relatively the same sort of price level as I have described.

I adore Bulldogs and would dearly love to own and show one, but also agree that they are far too overpriced, Having owned and exhibited large breeds for many years I have now reached retirement age and showing large breeds is getting a little much for me. The price I am afraid is what puts me off, a lot of money to find in retirement. Priced around the £1000 mark would filter out a lot of the idiots in it for the money and still cover the whelping expences etc.

> Is it really such a taboo thing for a breeder to make a profit? <IMG alt=confused src="/images/confused.gif"> I'm sure there are breeders out there who adore their dogs,spare no expense raising their litters,do everything right and still come out on top. I wouldn't slate a 'responsible' breeder who made a profit at the end of the day

the thing is that if responsible breeders are selling there dogs for profit then irresponsible ones can get away with it to. and in the case of bulldogs its an enormous profit! i;ve nothig against breeders making a small profit either- i can instantly think of several posters on here who i've no doubt would go "oh great, an extra £500 about- into the kitty for the next show/stud/vet bill...". if your making lets say a grands profit on each pup and its all going back into the breeders dogs i'd guess we'll be seeing a lot of BIS bulldogs around. Instead we see lots of not great ones.

who says we all sell our dogs for profit,come on now everyone must make a profit at some point,if not on one litter then certainly on another ,thats really not fair to say in the case of bulldogs its an enormous profit!! and also not fair to say you see not a lot of good ones around,from your post i think its personnal,you are slating my breed of dog,perhaps your breed isnt so good either eh!!!
what breed do you have? im sure theres something i could think of to say about it,would you like it? i think not !! my last litter left me out of pocket but im not complaining,its my choice and i have to take the good with the bad,i do it because i genuinly love bulldogs and the two  babies i have now im keeping forever,they were born early and ive put a lot of hard work into them,not for the money but because i wanted them to both live,they have cost me over 2000 to keep alive,wheres the profit in that. please think what you are saying,if your discussing the cost then thats faior enough but dont slate them saying there a lot of no good ones around,i and many others put a lot of effort into our dogs,and how can you say a grands profit on each pup? it all depends what the out goings are and how many you have in a littler and in my case where ive kept both ive made nothing but ive gained two very much wanted dogs that will hopefully make the ring.

sorry but i think you've misunderstood me. i didn't say every breeder sells theirs for profit, from what you've said about your pups it sounds like you've needed every penny for treatment (hope there alright btw), in which case charging whatever you need to charge is perfectly valid. of course everything depends on circumstance (i believe this was stated earlier in the thread), what i was saying was that if a bulldog should produce a litter of say 6 pups (which i understand is not unusual) and has no additional vetinary costs other than the normal check ups and what not, how is it reasonable to charge £2000 per pup (as many breeders do as discussed above) when in almost any other breed no where near that much is charged. if in that case the same number of pups as in many other litters is raised at generally the same cost but are sold at at least double the price of many other breeds a huge profit is made.

i certainly was not intending to slate the breed and i'm sorry you took my post that way, in fact, as i believe i said earlier in the thread, i would very much like to have one, i think bulldogs are wonderful. but i really don't think you can deny that there are lots of very poor examples around. this i believe is largely down to the level of profit that can be made in their breeding, profit makes them prime targets for puppy farmers who are not aiming for health and quality, simply money. my point above was that if genuine breeders, who do produce lovely healthy dogs sell them for that kind of price its not going to encourage people to buy a quality animal rather than a puppy farmed one, which further encourages such practises. vicious circle.

as you can maybe see in my avatar i have bullmastiffs, derived in part of course from the bulldog. they are becoming increasingly popular and as such have begun to suffer the puppy farming issue as well, and YES there are TERRIBLE examples around which is bad enough for the breed but also they are often in the wrong hands which genuinely terrifies me. they are a large and strong dog who require a certain level of handling etc and can possibly go so wrong- i am very worried about them going the way of the staffy, rottie, dobe etc and getting an undeserved rep from louts...but anyway, thats another issue

  

I have reared from 3 to 9 pups in a litter averaging at 5.5 pups per litter.  I have mad a loss on the smallest litters and broken even/made a small sum to go toward the dogs upkeep/shows from others, though certainly spend a lot more on the dogs than the small excess over expenditure from rearing a litter.

The average Bulldog litter even after a C section etc with 6 pups being an average, few if any breeders hip scoring or eye testing then there is a disproportionate profit made on the rearing of the litter compared with other breeds and that is what is attracting the people who will cut corners and make even more from them, to the detriment of the breed.

Puppy farmers like to have easy to sell popular breeds for which there is a ready market and also high priced breeds, to maximise profits.

> Puppy farmers like to have easy to sell popular breeds for which there is a ready market and also high priced breeds, to maximise profits

> have mad a loss on the smallest litters and broken even/made a small sum to go toward the dogs upkeep/shows from others, though certainly spend a lot more on the dogs than the small excess over expenditure from rearing a litter

lol, must say brainless you were one of the ones i was thinking of when i said about whe a litter does make profit

"i can instantly think of several posters on here who i've no doubt would go "oh great, an extra £500 about- into the kitty for the next show/stud/vet bill..."."

i feel that if good breeders slod the cheaper (as it appears they usually could) then theres no way they would be as frequently 'farmed'

Yep I have a breed that is averagely priced, has to be hip scored eye tested and now the club asks for Kidney blood tests and a DNA test for late onset PRA is just coming on-line so the outlay before even thinking of breeding the litter is not small.  Stud fees are also the price of a puppy, as stud dogs don't get a lot of work.

With no untoward extra costs 3 - 4 pups sold will cover the litter rearing costs, including health screening.

Of course a C section will take another pup, and any ill health etc may take another, but on average there will be a few pounds left over for some entry fees for shows, but no one could really make enough money to compensate for the time and effort and commitment to the pups, your breeding line and breed, not profitable in the business sense.

On the other hand if you stand to actually make an average profit of a £1000 per pup, even with large vet bills and C sections on an average litter then the Tax man is going to really start looking at our hobby and make our lives a misery of red tape.