your views please on the electric shock and prong collar? In another forum I put a post up about my disslike of both and nobody agrees with me. surely giving a dog an electric shock can be right?? I have read lots of information and the kennel club is trying to ban it and so are all the welfare charities? what do you all think?

The prong or pinch collar is not illegal and the KC have no plans to ban it. It can be seen regularly on setters and pointers at their Field trials (before/after competing).

Electric collar debates are as polarising as those on hunting and docking......

I havent used the prong collar (the one with spikes inside resting on the dogs neck), but I do not think I ever will.  I dont like them, I know it would make me uncomfortable, and cause some sort of pain, so I dont.

I do use chain collars, where its just links. 

Electric collars, no as well.  Dont see the reason.  If you need to use pain to make your dog behave, its not behaving because it trusts and respects you, its behaving out of fear of you.

Thats my personal opinion though.

like most of these things i am sure they have there place, but i would never use one on one of my dogs.

Hi,
I use and am very much a fan of prong/pinch collars. From my experience people judge them on looks alone...if it looks bad then it must be barbaric!
How many people do you know who after having behavior problems with a dog, used a prong collar then decided it was NOT a good idea? I certainly know of none.

Personally I would never put a 'normal' chain on any of my dogs.....to find out why simply put a chain around your arm or leg and give it a yank......after you recover from the pain sit and watch the bruise come up.........do the same with a prong ( as I have ) and you will feel firm even pressure around your arm/leg......no pain and no bruising.

As I said people judge prongs on looks and hearsay not first hand experience.........as for e-collars.....well that is a whole different ball game.

John

I have used a chain collar to deter a dog who would lunge unexpectedly, she actually busted my knee even tho she only weighs 20lbs   
YES! I did choose the correct size collar and links, and yes I have put it on my own arm correctly and used it, no pain, no marking no bruising.   And the dog got the message straight away.  The message was, if she pulled unexpectedly it would make a noise and then tighten and immediately release.  After the second time of using it, she wore it like a necklace for a few weeks and then it was retired as she had stopped lunging entirely - she no longer wears it, she no longer lunges.  Both my dogs walk on a loose lead.

I would NOT use a prong/pinch collar - never known anyone declare that their use is temporary, so what are they for?  The dog only seems to behave while wearing it.

I would NOT use an electric collar.  Pain does not encourage education or learning.

>Pain does not encourage education or learning

Not quite true. Anyone who has ever 'ironed' their thumb whilst ironing clothes, will tell you that they only ever do it once. Once was enough to learn a painful lesson and NOT to do it again

To those of you who say you experienced what it felt like around your arm/leg.....does the collar not go round the dogs neck? If so.....you should try wearing the collar round your neck-then you can make a somewhere near comparison.

With you on that Freds Mum!

Anyone who uses these barbaric electronic or prong collars should be treated in exactly the same way when they step out of line.

Dill,
I have two 75lb GSD's and simply cannot afford for them to lunge at either dogs or people.

A 'choke chain' when used for correction places ALL the pressure on the point where the chain goes through the ring.
When used sharply,as if a dog had lunged it will bruise......be it am arm or a dogs or human neck ( never tried it on my own neck.........)
I am pleased that you have seen reults when you used a chain.........as with a prong training collar you were able to stop using it after teaching the dog that lunging was not acceptable behavior......exactly the same as your temporary use of a chain.
Every dog /handler combination is different and I alway suggest that someone uses what works for them be it no collar ar all and only a voice correction, or a flat collar, half check and so on........

In a dog pack the subordinate dogs are kept in line by the higher ranking dogs ultimatley with physical force if needed..........this is what dogs understand.........try as we might to 'humanise' them they will always be dogs.

John

Gordon Bennet John, don't agree with any of what you said. First off, WE are not part of dogs' packs -very outdated theory that one. And higher ranking dogs in a pack do NOT use PHYSICAL force to control the lower ranking ones. They use body language. Any dog that resorts to anything else is not acting normally. A top bitch or top dog only need to use looks and body language and the rest will behave. I have 14 dogs here and see this all the time. The top bitch never even as much as growls, it's all body language.

Secondly, it's perfectly possible to teach any dog to walk on a lead nicely wearing just a plain flat collar, especially if you start at 8 weeks. I have Malinois and they are far, far stronger than me. I've had a couple that pulled a lot on the leads as youngsters, so I simply used a headcollar for a few months. That sorted that problem, no more pulling and they've never needed it again. A dog that lunges at people and other dogs doesn't need a choke chain or prong collar, it needs to be trained to not act like this. Calmly. It should never have been allowed to get like that in the first place, and using physical correction is only going to make it worse. "Oh another dog, that means an unpleasant jerk on the lead is coming up, I best defend myself as soon as possible."

I HAVE in the past used a prong collar, just to see what it was like. That bitch was just a Golden. It didn't teach her a thing. She'd not pull if she had it on, but it never taught her NOT to pull, like the headcollars do.

I listened to a phone in on the radio about electric collars.Someone said they had seen a young child in a park with a dog wearing one and the child was zapping the dog over and over,enjoying watching the dog yelping.This is one of the problems with the collars,making sure they are used by the right people,which of course you cannot do,so i think they should be banned.

I find it strange that you think we are not part of our dogs pack? Outdated thinking? if our dogs do not see us as leaders why would they choose to obey our commands?

Yes dogs use body language however if a subordinate dog chooses to ignore this it will escallate into a physical correction........a mother lifting a pup by the scruff is just that a physical correction to teach.and the prongs on a collar mimic her teeth.
I have in the past used Haltis.........for me they didn't work. My dogs hated them and ran when they saw me lift them.

'Oh another dog' does not mean an unpleaseat jerk.it means if I( the dog) remain calm and behave I will get to meet it.

john

>a mother lifting a pup by the scruff is just that a physical correction to teach.

How many litters have you bred, John, and how often have you seen that happen?

I was just going to say the same JG -bitches do not lift their pups by the scruff. In fact it's even very rare for cats to do with their kittens, normally they only do if they feel very insecure. I've never had a bitch carry any pup, ever. Nor have I ever seen a bitch correct a pup by any other means than body language or if the pup is VERY out of hand, a growl.

i agree that by starting at a young age a dog can be taught to walk to heel on a lead without pulling or lunging. If the dog is older and pulls/lunges then it can be corrected but may need some help i.e. headcollar.
I quite often watch dog borstal and other similar programmes. I watched one a while ago with a huge newfie that pulled. Within a short while the trainer mick had demonstrated how a dog can walk to heel off lead by using correct techniques (changing direction every time dog pulls) and rewarding with treats and praising in the right places. I've done it before. my old neighbour has a large gsd cross that pulls her along something chronic. I took the dog for a walk and tried the method of changing direction. Admittedly i looked a bit silly but it worked. Occasionally his owner still needs to do this but on the whole he is a changed dog.
I would try every last option and even then still dont think id resort to anything as barbaric as electric/prong collars. it seems like a lazy way out and doesnt actually address not cure the problem.
Just my opinion.

> ........a mother lifting a pup by the scruff is just that a physical correction to teach.and the prongs on a collar mimic her teeth.
>

That's a new one, never seen my GSD bitches use that method to correct their puppies & mine have all been from working backgrounds. I threw away my chokers etc collars over thirty years ago & replaced them with flat collars & poistive renforcement & socialization. How can a pinch collar mimic the bitches teeth as they are all around the dogs throat & bitches carry puppies whilst they are asleep as well so how could that be correction ?

My GSDs didn't lunge at people or dogs why ? because they were trained not to & did as they were told. Dogs do what we ask them to because we are a food providing source not a pack leader. Pack leaders do not give pack members treats or food as we do & a true Alpha rarely has to resort to actual physical force to instill discipline, a look, low growl or slight cahnge in body posture is usually enough. I had a male GSD who was 5 + inches over the brede standard & he had a very strong pre drive in his work, had he wanted to he could have lifted off my feet easily & no collar in the world would have stopped him, however his drive was channelled into work & when not working was as soft as butter. his bite in work could go through a police/schutzhund/sleeve yet he could pick up an egg without damaging it & once a"clever devil"criminal tried to resist him & he dragged the 6' 6" police handler down & pulled him along the ground with ease(I should have called him off. but his sargeant & I were too busy laughing at the handler)

find it strange that you think we are not part of our dogs pack? Outdated thinking? if our dogs do not see us as leaders why would they choose to obey our commands?

The pack leader/dominance theory dates back to the 1950's and we know much better now, so know it isn't correct. I'll give you a couple of links to read up on it. Modern dog training doesn't involve punishment or correction, it involves rewarding the desired behaviour. You don't have to be a pack leader to get somebody to obey a command. You offer the right incentive for them WANTING to do so. Just like you go to work to earn money, not because you get told off if you don't go. Both methods will WORK, but you will much prefer the one that offers you a NICE incentive.

'Oh another dog' does not mean an unpleaseat jerk.it means if I( the dog) remain calm and behave I will get to meet it.

Not true -negative reinforcement is powerful and the unpleasant experience will be uppermost in the dog's mind.

Debunking the dominance myth
The history and misconception of dominance theory
The Teamwork Training approach
Turid Rugaas on how to stop dogs lunging at others on lead, and why jerking will make it worse

>Pain does not encourage education or learning.

Admin you are correct, what I should have said was "FEAR and Pain does not encourage education or learning."   I was taught by a sadistic french teacher as a teenager, she'd whack me with a book even if other kids misbehaved, if I was closer can't remember any of the french I was supposed to have been taught by her I spent most of my time being too scared to do anything

>A 'choke chain' when used for correction places ALL the pressure on the point where the chain goes through the ring.

This simply isn't true, the dog gets a warning first (sound of the links) and never actually gets to the end of the chain.  The chain tightens slightly, but not much, a downward lead shake at the same time prevents this.  It's a powerful correction when done properly and I wouldn't use it on a less bolshy dog.

Brainless, this wasn't a dog lunging at another dog or person, this dog was lunging and making a dash when there were no distractions, empty road   of course being a terrier she may have scented something, but she was completely unpredictable. 

Brainless, this wasn't a dog lunging at another dog or person, this dog was lunging and making a dash when there were no distractions, empty road eek  of course being a terrier she may have scented something, but she was completely unpredictable.

Headcollars are great for that especially as it doesn't need the owner to do anything.

Would never even entertain the idea of electric collars ever, I thought capital punishment was banned.

Used choke chains when I was growing up as that was what was done back then, havent used them for over 20 years and again would not entertain using one.  They are scientifically proven to cause injury.  I dont need to hurt my dogs for them to do as I ask. 

As for prong collars, just a variation on a theme isnt it really? 

Yes I used one on my Groenendael as she tended to jerk to see things and as we were walking with a pushchair it wasn't a good idea.  Never had to use a head collar on the Elkhounds as even though they are of similar weight they tend to be less reactive, and I can deal with simple pulling without one, but if I had a bad back arthritic hands etc I certainly would use head collars without a doubt.

They probably are, but this bitch wouldn't have been cured, as soon as the head collar came off she'd have been back to her tricks and I don't see the point of using a head collar on a dog who normally walks on a loose lead   this was difficult to train out because it didn't happen very often, just once in a while, unfortunately she busted my knee that time and I couldn't afford for it to happen again it took months to heal and is still not 100%.  The shock of the noisy chain probably had more effect on her than any tightening, after the first 2 sessions she wore it as a necklace (both ends clipped to the leash) for two weeks and only the sound was enough of a correction, she hasn't done it since.

I mainly use chains.  I find them to work, and when used CORRECTLY are ok.  During a correction, there are many steps.  Firstly, a loose leash, so step forward so there is some.  Then a snap back with an IMMEDIATE release.  Therefor, no holding the collar tight.  Its using a sense of shock to make the dog realize that there behaviour isnt acceptable.

As for the Lure method of training, that has been mentioned, it doesnt work on every dog.  I have been trying day in and day out to teach my one dominant bitch to lay down with the lure method, and the closest I have ever gotten to a down was her elbows and head touching the floor, with her bum in the air.  With the chain collar, a guide (not correction) to the ground, and she is down.  Since I gave up on the lure method for almost everything since it didnt work for her, she actually knows her basic commands.  She isnt obeying out of fear or pain.  She is obeying because that is what I expect her to do.  I shouldnt have to bribe her to do what I want her to.

Haltis, or Head collars, I dont get.  Basically because of the logic behind them.  They work, because they put pressure on the dogs nose and neck.  It is uncomfortable for a dog to pull, when its neck is being pulled sideways, and its nose being yanked on.  Dont get me wrong, I have used them, when they were first popular.  But once I saw how they were really working, I put it in the back of the closet, and in 14 years it hasnt been used. 

Each collar, leash, everything related to dogs, someone is gonna like them, and someone is going to say that they are the worst things ever.  But we have to remember that what works on our dogs, doesnt neccessarily work on someone elses and vice versa. 

Again, just my opinion.

Hm it has been proven that chokers do far more damage to a dogs neck area than head collars. I got rid of mine as training aids back in the 1960's & the only 1 I have is a gold snake link choker given to me when my Champion beardie retired & it has never been used as a choker, it has only been used on a dead link on a friends beardie

Using the choker to "snap back"a dog can & will cause neck nerve damage to some dogs.

I prefer a figure of eight collar, this applies gentle pressure the same way a T Touch calming band does, doesn't ride up over the eyes & because they are quite wide, they do not cut into the skin. You do NOT yank/jerk the dog with a head collar, it should be used in conjunction with a conventional collar & used to GUIDE the dogs head if it attempts to pull or lunge towards a person or animal.

The lure method does work, but it takes lots of patience & is very adaptable, for example you have a dog who does as yours does, then sit on the floor against a wall with your knees raised to form a tunnel. with the dog on your left offer a treat with your right hands under your knees & lure the dog under your knees, lowering your knees slightly as the dog is under your knees. Repeat several times lowering your knees slight more each rep. Eventually the dog will be forced(untouched & without pressure)to lie down to get the treat & at this stage you bring in the command you wish to use for the down position

The clicker method also works for the down, every time your dog lies down, you click & treat & you can add a cue word & dogs being dogs quickly catch on that the cue word comes with the click &  food for the action & eventually both the click & treat can be phased out & the treat given randomly

You do appear to want & expect your dogs to obey simply because you own them. Treating isn't bribing it is a reward for required behaviour. Owning a dog should be a partnership for both parties, not just an ownership by a human of another living species, which is a very( IMHO) backwards looking stance

Even my cats learn behaviours for rewards, this is the reason they come in & to me whenever I call, they are rewarded for the action & therefore carry it out happily

>It is uncomfortable for a dog to pull, when its neck is being pulled sideways, and its nose being yanked on.

Remember that with the headcollars (at least the ones I've seen!) the instructions are very clear that the handler never pulls on the lead to 'yank' the headcollar. The dog is totally in charge of the tension - if the dog pulls forward its nose and head will be turned back because they can't go further forward, and when the dog stops pulling forward the tension is released naturally. If the handler pulls on the lead they're doing it wrong!

I'd love to know who runs the West of Scotland Community Dog Training Association that you hold a qualification from in dog training

>Then a snap back with an IMMEDIATE release.

This isn't the correct use I'm afraid and would be a painful yank on the dog's neck    The correct method is a DOWNARDS and FORWARDS SHAKE of the lead which actually loosens the collar at the same time.  At no time should the collar or lead tighten.  It works mainly through the sudden sound of the collar.  The whole point is that a free running collar reduces tension on the lead and gives the handler warning that the dog is about to lunge/pull and the correction can be given while the dog is still moving but before there is tension on the lead or collar.  After the lesson is learned reinforcement was by fastening the endlinks together in the lead clip.  The mere sound of the chain was enough of a reminder.

I wouldn't use this collar for an untrained dog, a constantly pulling dog or for a nervous/ unconfident dog.  This was for a bolshy madam who knows how to walk on the lead but sometimes decided that she could lunge/dash accross me.

As for reward based training, what's not to like?  It is no more bribery than an adult being paid for work   or a child being given a treat for doing well in school.  The best trained dogs I know think all good things come from their owner and get excited at the chance to show off what they can do . 

>>>The lure method does work, but it takes lots of patience & is very adaptable, for example you have a dog who does as yours does, then sit on the floor against a wall with your knees raised to form a tunnel. with the dog on your left offer a treat with your right hands under your knees & lure the dog under your knees, lowering your knees slightly as the dog is under your knees. Repeat several times lowering your knees slight more each rep. Eventually the dog will be forced(untouched & without pressure)to lie down to get the treat & at this stage you bring in the command you wish to use for the down position<<<

Honestly, first off, I dont have large dog.  My dogs are 11 inches at the whithers.  So to bend the knees, I would have to be basically already to the floor.
And second, I personally can not do that.  I have had several knee operations, my problem being closest to Luxating Patellas in dogs.  I bend the knees, if not totally careful, and they pop out.  I would then land on my dog, and seriously hurt her.  Not risking that.
And honestly, is a year and a half trying enough patience?  I would think so.  I can say it didnt work for my dog, and then use something else.
Training, collars, etc, go in fads.  What is popular right now, will not be in a couple years.  New people come along, say that this such and such thing is great, and everyone follows that.

>>>>>>You do appear to want & expect your dogs to obey simply because you own them. Treating isn't bribing it is a reward for required behaviour. Owning a dog should be a partnership for both parties, not just an ownership by a human of another living species, which is a very( IMHO) backwards looking stance<<<<<

Im sorry, but I do not treat my dog every time it does something asked of them.  I do not treat my dog, if it goes outside to the toilet, because it is what it is expected to do.  I do not get a cookie everytime I go to the washroom.  I also do not ignore bad behaviour.  If my dog does something I dont agree with, it gets a correction. 
Had my pup at puppy play class.  They put down a bowl of water, and when she was drinking a bit of water, another dog came up to drink.  My dog growled. Should I have said "Please dont do that Cher"  or should I have corrected her for it?  Let her know that behaviour was unacceptable.  Well, I gave her a correction, and since then she has never growled around her food or water bowls.  Another dog can come up and drink or eat from the same bowl, and she doesnt do a thing.  If I hadnt corrected her for it, she would have lunged.
I do believe that owning a dog is a two way street, a partnership as you put it.  Although, just like any relationship there are rules, and they need to listen to them.
Believe me, I dont go around correcting my dog 24/7.  And most of the times, a snap of the fingers or look, can let her know, to settle down and behave.  But I know many dogs, that when used lure training, if you dont got a cookie, then they wont do it.  So it does look like a bit of a bribe, when the dogs arent sitting, or laying down, simply because you dont have a cookie.  What do you do then?  Rush off and get a cookie, so they will do what you ask.  I dont.

>Honestly, first off, I dont have large dog.  My dogs are 11 inches at the whithers.  So to bend the knees, I would have to be basically already to the floor.

Hm Well I have trained Cavalier puppies & they are small dogs, I'v got very arthritic knees(had both knee caps replaced after being smashed playing mixed field hockey in 1969), but I can still use this method(I'm not allowed to kneel on Specialist instruction)so I don't see how anyone cannot do this. This is no fad it's been used for as long as I can remember(& I started dog training in 1956(aged 6)

If you cannot bend your knees at all how do you walk ?

>Im sorry, but I do not treat my dog every time it does something asked of them.

Where have I said every time your dog obeys you ? I was clearly talking about training & rewards. Do you never say good dog to your dogs if they do something right ? That is a reward. How did you punish your dog for growling ? TBH I would expect a young puppy to have a few growls as it learns the behaviour required by the owner, especially towards a strange(as in unknown intimately to the puppy). Dogs growl at each other to warn & they as they cannot speak this is quite natural. I teach my dogs to stop growling/barking etc whilst they are young & no punishment for growling would have occurred because the puppy would have a cue word to stop growling

>So it does look like a bit of a bribe, when the dogs arent sitting, or laying down, simply because you dont have a cookie.  What do you do then?  Rush off and get a cookie, so they will do what you ask.  I dont.

Firstly I don't give "cookies"to my dogs except in training & once trained they do as I ask/command them to do. For example my oldest BC is very territorial & just as I was getting him out of the car in my driveway the local roaming dog(a black lab that is very dog & human aggressive)started to trot down my driveway. As I always shut & lock the gates before I let the dogs out of the car it could not actually get near my car or my dog but was growling very loudly. My Rjj started towards the gates, but stopped immediately I told him to go indoors, my puppy & bitch also did the same & my puppy is only 13 weeks old & yes I did praise him big time for doing what I said, but no treat. My dogs do sit, down & stand on command once trained, dogs do not reason I won't sit/down/stand until I get a treat, but I will sit/down/stand because I might get a treat, be it a toy, food or simply a cuddle/stroke

It does appear that your training is based in the(what I call)the dark ages of dog training back in the 1950's & 1960's when chokers were the normal & correction the method of training

> But I know many dogs, that when used lure training, if you dont got a cookie, then they wont do it. So it does look like a bit of a bribe, when the dogs arent sitting, or laying down, simply because you dont have a cookie. What do you do then? Rush off and get a cookie, so they will do what you ask. I dont.

The owners of these dogs, then, haven't understood how to progress with lure and reward training.  The early stages, yes, involve rewarding every correct behaviour, but progression means moving onto a variable reward schedule - rewarding only the best/faster/more precise behaviours.  That continues, teaching the dog to work harder/longer for each reward.  If a dog will only ever do any behaviour when the reward is present, then the trainer/owner hasn't done the training properly or progressed it enough.

Training a dog through positive methods is infinitely better than using either punishment or even a mixture of punishments (or corrections, if you like) and positive training - negative experiences cause negative emotions in the dog and impede its ability to learn.  Positive training is also beneficial in that it shows the dog what it should do - it's training an alternative behaviour.  Punishments/corrections serve only to show the dog what it shouldn't do; it leaves the dog to worry about what to do instead because it hasn't been given another option.  In a severe enough sitatuion, or under chronic enough corrections, the dog goes into 'learned helplessness' - they simply don't do anything because they don't know what they are allowed to do.

I won't lie - I've never acheieved purely (or even mostly) positive training with my dogs.  I lose my temper; I shout sometimes, and they do get yanks on the lead.  For that, I have four dogs who don't respect me and don't behave how I would like them to.  But, on the odd occasion I try to get into the swing of reward and ignore, their behaviour improves immeasurably - they do as I ask because they want to, and because there's something in it for them.  It's a myth that dogs like to please us - rather, the truth is that they like to please themselves.  They aren't stupid - behaviours are done to benefit them, whether that be to get a reward, or to avoid a correction.

Going back to your own dog, did you only try luring her from the stand into the down or did you also try luring from the sit into the down?  One of my dogs - my eldest dobe - couldn't understand going from stand to down without leaving her bum in the air to follow her front end afterwards; so I rewarded a sit-down, then gradually increased the speed from one to the other.  She still has a lazy bum sometimes but it's helped no end.

You say that you use the chain to guide her down - why do you need a chain to do that on an 11" dog?  I don't mean to rile you, it just doesn't make sense to me.  If it's the guiding that's having the desired effect, you should just as well be able to do that with a flat collar and leash.  The fact that the chain is there suggests to me that she's responding to discomfort of some kind and goes into the down because she's learned that doing so relieves it.  I could eb utterly wrong, but that's just the impression I get.

They put down a bowl of water, and when she was drinking a bit of water, another dog came up to drink.  My dog growled. Should I have said "Please dont do that Cher"  or should I have corrected her for it?  Let her know that behaviour was unacceptable.  Well, I gave her a correction, and since then she has never growled around her food or water bowls.

Won't reply to the rest as MM already has done (and I have a 10 inch dog and am puppy sitting two even smaller and always find a way to train, I too find it very difficult to bend down etc. One great way to teach a down with a small toydog is to do it on a table or a sofa or bed!) -but this above could very well teach a dog to not warn before biting. It's not allowed to growl, so next time has to bite instead. Growling is dog language and the dog told another to leave it alone whilst drinking -what is wrong with that?!

If you do a search on here on prong collars Iam sure you will get alot of info-

I do use one on Junior and the idea of the prong is that they feel a lil preasure so they correct themselves- you do not need to correct them- eventually going to a buckle- if the prong is fit and used properly then works great just like any other correction collar- if not used right then does more harm then good. I have gone to many dog classes started on buckle, chain ect and found the prong to work the best with him on advice from the trainer- now in the summer when we start walks again I start with a prong but after a couple walks Iam on a buckle. Its all in how you use them- just like chain (chokers) the point in them is to get down give a side snap and its the clink of the chain that corrects the dog (which is hard to give side snap with dogs close to the ground) and most people don't know this- they pop it on mean while choking the dog and they wonder why its not working- hello!

Personally I think before any collar be it buckle, chain, prong what have you are sold people should have to bring their dog in have it fitted and shown how to use them- just my opinion- even a dog pulling on a buckle can cause just as much damage to them.

Dollface here in the UK most dog training cubs/classes will not allow anyone to use a choke chain, let alone a prong.

>>>If you cannot bend your knees at all how do you walk ?<<<

Doing a squat is completely different than walking.  Walking does not put your knees out of balance.  But I do where splints and wabble like a penguin if you must know.  I understand that people have knee problems, but I dont sit here and say I know what you are going through with knee replacements and such, and I dont pass judgement on you. 

Even simple walking, with splints, causes back and hip pain.  But again, I dont expect you to understand do I? 

And I didnt say I couldnt bend my knees at all, I said I had to be extremely careful, when bending.  You have fake knees, I do not.  My knee caps are way to small, and pop quite frequently. 

>>>How did you punish your dog for growling <<<

She got a pop of the collar, with a firm no.  It worked.  And I didnt punish her, I corrected her.  Difference.  Punishment is done out of anger.  Corrections are not. 

>>>>It does appear that your training is based in the(what I call)the dark ages of dog training back in the 1950's & 1960's when chokers were the normal & correction the method of training <<<

I dont know what you mean, since I wasnt around on earth during the 50's and 60's.  I dont correct my dog into doing things.  I correct bad behaviour.  I use the collar and my hand to guide the dog into what I want.  My dogs arent hurt to obey. 
I would like to know though, how the lure method works to correct a dog?  Or do you just shut your eyes and ignore the bad and only focus on the good.

But it does seem, that no matter what I say, that I can not convince you that what I do is not hurting a dog.  Started with the stringing up in conformation, and then rolled onto this thread.  I dont use pain and punishement to have my dogs live in fear of me.  I use a different training method.  One that I found to have worked.  BTW in Canada, both methods are used: lure and whatever name you give my method. I am not flaming you for using the method you do, so please do not flame me. 

Really- how come? Didn't know that...

Junior was doing more harm to himself on a buckle he just wouldn't listen- treats toys ect no go- we tried many different ones in class then eventually tried the prong- first on me then on him- I gave it one heck of a snap on me and it didn't hurt so thought ok and its just the preasure that gets them to listen- now I actually have a joy to walk lol mind you I put alot of work and training into him to get him where we are today

Punishment is done out of anger.  Corrections are not.

No, correction is the word people training dogs by punishment use to make it sound better, just like they like to use the word check chain rather than choke chain....

>>but this above could very well teach a dog to not warn before biting. It's not allowed to growl, so next time has to bite instead. Growling is dog language and the dog told another to leave it alone whilst drinking -what is wrong with that?! <<

She learned that another dog can come up and take a drink of water.  She hasnt growled over food, or water.  Would you let a dog growl at you if you came to close to its dish?  I would hope not.  And the belief that she would just bite before a warning....rubbish.  She learned she cant escalate from a growl.  Therefore she cant bite either. 

Had dogs here, her brother recently which she hasnt seen since she was 13 weeks old, and they shared a dish, toys, everything with no incident from her. 

I stopped a dog fight.  Or what could escalate into one anyways.  Whats wrong with that?

The APDT state in their Code of Conduct that choke chains and prongs can't be used by members -see really far down on this page: http://www.apdt.co.uk/about.htm and the great majority of classes/clubs even when not affiliated to them do the same.

And the belief that she would just bite before a warning....rubbish.  She learned she cant escalate from a growl.  Therefore she cant bite either.

If only it was as simple as that.........

>Doing a squat is completely different than walking

Er squatting is not what I wrote I wrote Sitting on the floor as it sitting on your bottom legs in front of you, no pressure on your knees at all. You could even do it sitting on a couch, raise the knees(no pressure on them because they are horizontal)& lure the dog underneath QED

I have arthritis in every joint in my body not just my knees, but I work through the pain to train my dogs(like I must add many other people)

>I dont correct my dog into doing things.  I correct bad behaviour.  I use the collar and my hand to guide the dog into what I want.  My dogs arent hurt to obey. 

Bad behaviour is not doing what you tell your dogs to do then ? If you use positive reinforcement from the getgo, the dog learns that acceptable behaviour brings rewards, unaaceptable behaviour brings nothing, ergo the dog learns & remembers the behaviour that brings rewards. You do not get the bad behaviour because it's gains the dog nothing. The reward does not have to be food or a treat, a verbal reward can be enough once the dog is trained.

>I would like to know though, how the lure method works to correct a dog?  Or do you just shut your eyes and ignore the bad and only focus on the good.

Lure training is part of reward based positive reinforcement training it is not a method in it's own right. If you reinforce the required behaviour with reward as I have written above, the bad behaviour should be ignored, the dog learns & remembers the good behaviour brings rewards. I actually train hands off at home, I do not place my dogs into sits, downs etc nor do I compal them using a lead to walk beside me I use the lure as a reward for being in the required place ta the required time.

This is an example Wukee my 13 week old puppy has had the lead on three times, all at the training clubs I go to. He walked into the hall on the lead not pulling or dragging, Why ? How ? because he wanted to walk with me as he had received rewads for doing so at home off lead, my dogs never pull because I don't teach them to. Dogs learn to pull because they are not taught walking to heel until they have a lead put on & are taken out. If the dog walks to heel off lead because it wants to be rewarded at first & afterwards it becomes a learnt behaviour so the rewards are reduced & eventually removed & replaced by verbal praise & in the ring the concentration is learnt in a similar manner. I was asked how many walks I had had him on before he stopped pulling(by owners whose dogs had dragged them into the hall)they look aghast when I say none(my arthritis is playing up too much at present for me to safely walk the dogs any distance)I train off lead at home

Using chokers, placing dogs into positions like the sit & down etc is what dogs were subjected to in the early days of dog training, even now some trainers still use compulsion methods without reward because like you they expect their dogs to do as commanded because they gave the command

Perhaps if you were to understand that positive reinforcement is far more the norm in the UK than probably anywhere else in the world, in North America(ie Canada &  USA)the norm is compulsion(CM comes to mind here & he is very popular in North America)& the dominance theory is the basis of much of the training methods

I've been around dogs all my life & seen methods come & go, aids come & go, I started using postive reinforcement with a brilliant trainer back in 1965 when I trained my first dog for someone else, she had been subjected to being "dog broken"by a "dog breaker"& the results was she could not be touched to make her do anything, nor could she wear a choker. It took a full year to undo what had happened to her in the past, the result was a quite successful Obedience dog & a very willing obedient pet

ok, lure training works for you.  Thats fine. 
A year and a half, trying to get a dog to lay down (from a sit position) by lure training is enough patience.  It didnt work for her, and I used something else.  Now when I say "lay down" she does. 

And please dont think I use my knee pain, and other pain, as a cop out for training my dogs.  I work with my dogs, every single day, pain or not.  I also do a lot of other things, because I do not let pain control my life.

Sorry that I read your first post wrong, and thought you were talking about a squat instead of a sit.  That was an error on my part. 

But do not imply that I am barbaric, in my methods of training.  That is a personal flame, not just one about dog training.  This spat started long before this thread, like I previously mentioned.  I dont think I could say or do anything, that would have you think more of me, and who I am as a person. 

I respect that you have knowledge, but please dont stay closed minded.  You have had luck with different things.  Oh, and CM has nothing to do with the way I train my dogs.  He wasnt even around when I started.  I just adapted to from what didnt work, to what does for MY DOG. 

I answered the OP by saying, that I used chain collars.  Now it has turned into a thread about training methods and who is better.  So, I am no longer going to talk about training methods.  If you want to talk about them, start a thread about different training methods. 

/end

>But do not imply that I am barbaric, in my methods of training.  That is a personal flame, not just one about dog training.

Where did I write that ?

>I respect that you have knowledge, but please dont stay closed minded. 

Closed minded ? If I was I would still be using compulsion & chokers

>You have had luck with different things.

Luck ? no sorry there is no luck involved in dog training unless you get a really easy dog to train. It is consistency & hard work from me & willingness from the dog(& Cavalier although very bright aren't always willing being a spaniel their working side can go into flushing & retrieving small game at times)

> Would you let a dog growl at you if you came to close to its dish?&nbsp; I would hope not.&nbsp;

Yes, actually, I would - because it would immediately let me know that the dog is not comfortable with me being so close to its resource, and it is a safe, minimal warning.  Punish/correct a dog for giving that warning and they will cease to do it - and that is a very dangerous situation.

That situation is the one I was faced with when my oldest dobe came home over a year ago.  She's no 11" dog - she's a 40kg bigun.  She did not warn, and she guarded sofas and beds.  Do you know what would have happened if I'd corrected her for warning me that she wasn't comfortable with my presence?  I would have gone to casualty.  As it was, the only warning I got was a barely noticeable stiffening up.  After some help from more experienced people, I learned to heed her warnings and back off.  In turn, she learned that by warning me clearly, I would leave her be and she would not need to feel threatened.

Through that process - and only through that - I now have a dog who will let me sit next to her on the sofa and scratch her head; who will sleep all night on my bed without getting remotely worried about me shifting in my sleep.  The only times lately she's felt the need to warn me were the other night, when I accidentally booted her bum because I didn't reliase she was there, and when my friend went to tickle her belly on the sofa and pushed too far.  And, I am VERY proud to say, all she did was lift her lip.  If that had been a year ago, my friend would have been nipped at the very least, and all because my Soli didn't think it was safe to warn.

So yes, I would let a dog growl at me for being near its bowl.  Or its bed.  Or for handling it somewhere I didn't like, or for a miriad of other reasons.  Growls have a purpose - they are there to warn, to protect, and to prevent confrontation.

> I stopped a dog fight.&nbsp; Or what could escalate into one anyways.&nbsp; Whats wrong with that?

How do you know it would have been a fight?  When my boy was 5 months old, my brother moved in with his then 5-yr-old rescue dog.  The first time Remy tried to drink the same time as her, she gave him a sound nip on the nose.  He didn't try again for a very, very long time and when he did, he approached very carefully and made sure she didn't mind before he drank.  Dogs are far better teachers of dogs when it comes to what is and isn't acceptable to each other than we humans could ever hope to be.

can I just ask, why would you need to use a choke/check chain on an 11" dog ? surely you would have enough control with a collar ?

I started using a check chain, because my dog chewed threw many nylon collars.  A chain, she couldnt.  I didnt trust the nylon collars because she can easily chew them, and I didnt want to be on the street with a walk, and have the collar break apart since she chewed it.

I dont use a halti, because of the before mentioned reasons.

I dont use a promise collar, because I cant find one small enough (size 8)

I dont use a martingale collar/leash combo because the clasp doesnt hold the collar tight enough (after a bit, she has it worked up, that all she has to do is step out of it)

I have never used a prong or electric collar, never would.

I do have control on my dog.  I just use a different collar than others, but yet, a lot of people use check chains as well.

>>>Yes, actually, I would - because it would immediately let me know that the dog is not comfortable with me being so close to its resource, and it is a safe, minimal warning.  Punish/correct a dog for giving that warning and they will cease to do it - and that is a very dangerous situation. <<<

That scares me.  I should be able to go anywhere in my house, touch anything in my house, without being worried that a DOG wont like it.  What happens if you find, your dog has something it shouldnt have?  You go to take it, it growls at you since it knows you will back off, and then you either get bit, taking it away, or dont take it away, and have not so great consiquences. 

>>>How do you know it would have been a fight?<<<

How do you know it wouldnt have been?  We are talking a 3 lb dog at the time, growling at a dog that already weight 50 lbs.  I wasnt going to risk it.  Flame me for protecting not only my dog, but the other dog as well, I dont care. 

im not being picky now, genuinely curious, how does a dog chew a collar which is around its neck ?

I honestly have no idea how she could do it.  Just that there was a collar, on the floor, with chew marks, chewed right in half.  Min pins are devilish little dogs, and hard to explain how they do things sometimes.

So since then, nylon collars havent been used.  Looked for a leather one, cant find one small enough.  They dont seem to make a whole lot of selection in size 8 collars

>You go to take it, it growls at you since it knows you will back off, and then you either get bit, taking it away, or dont take it away, and have not so great consiquences. 

That's not quite how it works. It's vital that a dog is allowed to give a warning that it's not happy with a situation, so that the owner can remedy that by training it to be more relaxed in that situation. This starts from baby puppy-hood.

How many times to we hear "he just bit me with no warning"? The first question I'd ask would be "Has he ever been corrected for growling a warning?"