I took Marley to pupppy class, Monday and Friday.  Monday I got told off for having him in a harness and was given a half choke collar thing to use as its apparently easier to train him to walk on the lead with the collar, not that he pulls on his harness anyway and is off the lead most the time we are out. 

Friday I was told off for letting him fall asleep on my lap! as this will cause him to dominate me-is this true?  I cant believe I cant let a 12 week old puppy sleep on my lap for 10 mins!  I have already taught him to sit, stay and recal without classes but the trainer said I will be complaing I cant train my dog!

I'd be looking around for a different class, harnesses are much kinder than choke or half choke collars and there is nothing wrong with a puppy sleeping on your lap, it will not teach him to dominate you.

I had already decided not to go back but just wondered what she could have been talking about in regards to him sleeping on my lap, she said he should have been sleeping on the floor but there were alot of bigger dogs there, not all friendly either so I didnt want him vunerable, on my lap I knew he was protected.  At home he likes his own bed but we were out, he was tired and I didnt want him on the floor there.

I would agree that training with a harness might be more difficult as he will be able to sniff and look around without you being in charge of his head, but as for sleeping on your lap, the only negative would be that he might come to look for protection and not learn to be confident with other dogs on the ground, and in your arms he will be bolder and if worried by them be more likely to have a go at them as he gets older as he will feel your backing him up.  The dominance comment may have been in relation to this.

Also when in your arms other dogs are more likely to want to get up to see him, and he won't be able to greet properly, and being trapped in yoru arms may react defensively.

At his age though you should only be sitting with him for most of the class and just do a few exercises and not too much of the heel work as an hour will be too tiring, and eh is better off spending some of the time watching.

> I'd be looking around for a different class, harnesses are much kinder than choke or half choke collars

Er Harnesses actually do not stop pulling & give you no control over the dogs head. All dogs have to wear a collar & tag whilst in a public place(& yes that does include your car)so only using a harness is not complying with the law. Harnesses can actually cause damage to the forequarters of a dog as well. A half check is not cruel.

All mine wear half check collars all the time.  For  dog with a thick coat and a ruff  they are much kinder than a close fitting collar allowing the coat not to be flattened and if they do not pull then the collar stays nice and loose.  Should the dog pull then the collar can only tighten to the width they have been adjusted to (the dogs neck width) so no different to an ordinary collar.

The sound of the collar tightening will act as a reminder to the dog that the collar will tighten, but no risk of hurting them as could happen with a wrongly used check chain.

I put the half check on him in the class, I have no prob with that, I just prefer the harness, if I find he pulls alot when I start walking him on a lead I will use one to train him to walk to heal.  His harness has 2 tags on it, one with telephone etc and his micro chip tag.

No, she said he will dominate me!  I just think she took a disliking to me for some reason, although she passes comment to others in the class on how good pup is already! I dont know, maybe shes just trying to help but she just seems over strict

The law states a "collar & tag" not "harness & tag"unfortunately

with a 'baby puppy' I prefer a nice soft collar. Your trainer should be showing you how to encourage your pup to walk nicelywith you.  Your pup should be responding to your voice. Your voice is one of the best tools you have to train your dog. when of the lead it is (along with a whistle) the main tool. If you can control your pup on the lead to behave then chances are it will respond to you off lead.  If you cant control your pup on lead, chances are you wont be able to control it off lead. Start off with a wee soft collar, and progress up the 'collar ladder' ie. start with the soft collar and later when you perhaps find your pup going through the teanage years you have something to fall back on. If you use a half check now you will have toughened your pup up and then later wont have anything to fall back on.  My dogs all have half check, I rarely have to use them al all, but they are there if I need them. 

Also, if you buy a half-check for your puppy now, it will have grown out of it as an adult dog, as they are only adjustable within limit.

Oh this is an interesting post - I have collars and tags on my dogs but then when I take them for a walk I put a harness on as well.  I didnt like the idea of having to keep doing leash corrections therefore impacting the neck.

Mind you on the odd occasion when I am busy and just nipping to the school I will attach the lead to the collar and they do walk nicely (ish) - whereas with the harness they do pull like a working sled dog

Friday I was told off for letting him fall asleep on my lap! as this will cause him to dominate me-is this true?  I cant believe I cant let a 12 week old puppy sleep on

  Well if this were the case all the dogs I have ever trained should be unruly, disobediant and perhaps aggressive....... nope **rolleyes** all have spent just as much time cuddled up and fast asleep on my lap, neck, or feet as being trained.........and all are perfectly obediant, loving dogs to me, even when I don't see some of them for a long time. 

If an animal will sleep on you it means it trusts you implicetly (sp) and that is the biggest bond you will ever have, trust is the best training method you will ever need.

You only need to use these training techniques when a dog already is dominant as a way to show who is the boss, most dogs will never be dominant so do not need this treatment. I certainly would not be using these methods on a dog unless it showed itself to be a problem, your pup needs trust and love from you, and as you are finding you have been able to train your pup very well by using just that.    Well done!

You sound to be doing an excellent job, take the good from these training lessons they are good if for nothing else at helping to socialise your pup and ignore the bad.

Thankyou Carrington, Im really happy reading your reply, just what I needed to hear.  I have two best friends, one has two really friendly labs the other has a well trained but little grumpy collie, my OH has a unsociable X so the pup already has all sorts of friends.

Can't add to Carrington's post - 100% agree, particularly that sleeping ON you is a huge sign of trust and that is the best grounding for any training

Good luck Angelz

I use a halti harness on one of my rescue dogs that pulls an awful lot, if I don't use it we have no chance of controlling him, so I'm not sure why moonmaiden is saying they don't work and you don't have control. If used correctly they are also attached to the dogs normal collar, so not against the law either.  It is a halti harness not a head collar.  I've tried the half choke chain and it doesn't help but the halti harness in my opinion is brilliant! 

Also going back to dogs sleeping on your lap, I don't see a problem with cuddling your dog on your knee at home.  I'm no expert, but I sometimes think you have to go with your gut instincts with dogs.  I cuddle my dogs on my lap all the time and they love falling asleep on me!

I agree Perry. A lot of these anti-harness posts I think are based on the old-fashioned, go-under-the-leg harnesses that attach at the back, and yes, the dog can pull like a train. These days there are harnesses that you attach at the front (the halti-harness and the gentle leader harness for example), which DO allow control and DON'T damage the front assembly of the dog.

Would i be right in thinking that if you have a puppy then you shouldnt need to resort to harnesses etc. With a blank canvass (so to speak) you should be able to teach them to walk to heel with normal lead/treats/praise etc???   Forgive me if thats totally wrong but i thought harnesses and things were a correction method??

With regards to sleeping on you, my dog always has sat on my lap and cuddled into me when im sat on the sofa. He's the most loving dog and on his way to being very well trained so think the trainer was talking absolute nonsense   in my opinion.

> I use a halti harness on one of my rescue dogs that pulls an awful lot, if I don't use it we have no chance of controlling him, so I'm not sure why moonmaiden is saying they don't work and you don't have control. If used correctly they are also attached to the dogs normal collar, so not against the law either.  It is a halti harness not a head collar.  I've tried the half choke chain and it doesn't help but the halti harness in my opinion is brilliant! 
>

Harnesses do not cure pulling they control it to a degree, but leave you with little/no control of the dogs head unless you also have a collar on the dog as well.

Lots of people resort to harnesses because they don't realise you need to train a dog to walk nicely along the side of you. I've trained rescued dogs as well as dogs from puppies & I personally only use normal collars no chokers or half checks. I took my 15 week old puppy out in public(as opposed to dog shows & training club)yesterday. He didn't pull or choke himself on his ordinary collar, because I have trained him off lead at home to walk with me of his own accord. I don't use the compulsion of a lead at home as this is one of the reasons dogs learn to pull, being put onto a lead & taken for walks before they have learn to walk on a lead properly. I met a lot of dogs on harnesses pulling like trains & was constantly being asked how I had trained Wukee not to pull-my answer is I haven't taught him to pull I taught him to walk with me, QED

My dogs all come for a cuddle & a sit on the lap(even the older Collies)that's if there is room with cats being there as well

It must be great to be able to train your rescue dogs not to pull and I'm looking forward to that day, but for now the halti harness attached to the normal dog collar works for us.  I don't think they are supposed to be used without normal collars so maybe this is when people cannot control the dogs head, if used with a collar as per instructions then you do have control of the dogs head.  I'm looking forward to the day we can walk him on collar and lead only forgetting the harness, but in the meantime I wouldn't be without the harness. 

the Halti harness is rather new,a  normal dog harness fastens above the dogs shoulders and is actually designed originally so a dog could track or pull a load and you have no control of the head.

then came anti pull harnesses that tightened under the armpits, and for thin coated dogs made them sore, though some have padding now.  These can seriously put out a dogs front from a show point of view.

Well as far as the  "dominating"  thing goes, she is hopelessly outdated. Tell her to read some  RECENT  research into the dominance myth

Hi,
My dogs wear harnesses, except for ring classes. I do not have a problem at all they walk at heel just as a dog on a chocker does, we do not use collars on Sammies as one, it rubs all there coat off, secondly there coat is so thik that a collar that fitted they could pull there heads out of. unless you was really cruel and pulled it so tight it choked them. A walk is a pleasure time to be enjoyed by all.

Denese

Hi,
The law also says no dogs off leads in any public places encluding parks ect; ect; how many people let there dogs of the lead when they have them out, far to many to mention.
My dogs are kept on extention leads. never loose. So not to annoy anybody.The problems we get with loose dogs is disgracfull but! dog owners still do it.

Denese

>The law also says no dogs off leads in any public places encluding parks ect; ect;

I've never read that law, Denese. Please can you post a link to it?

The Road Traffic Act 1988 says that no dog may be off lead on a public road, but other public places are fine for dogs being off lead, unless a council says otherwise.

ive made the mistake of allowing my dogs on my lap, i spent so much time with my one yr old playing and having her on my lap that she suffers from separtion anxiety really bad and will look terribly depressed when i wont let her on my lap, she wont play with other dogs or play with toys she only retrieves them, my pup who is 17 weeks and son who is nearly 3 get extremely jealous of each other when one is on my lap, and my son now seems insecure at times which he never was b4 so my advice would be do not let your pup on your lap, i had to learn the hard way

> The law also says no dogs off leads in any public places encluding parks ect; ect;

Not where I live it doesn't, in the local city there is a bye law about having dogs on lead if the street/road etc is a bus route & in some parks but not a blanket bye law & it isn't a Government law it's a Local Authority Bye Law something totally different

The tag on a collar is a Government Law

> ive made the mistake of allowing my dogs on my lap, i spent so much time with my one yr old playing and having her on my lap that she suffers from separtion anxiety really bad and will look terribly depressed when i wont let her on my lap, she wont play with other dogs or play with toys she only retrieves them, my pup who is 17 weeks and son who is nearly 3 get extremely jealous of each other when one is on my lap, and my son now seems insecure at times which he never was b4 so my advice would be do not let your pup on your lap, i had to learn the hard way

All my dogs have cuddles on my lap & my cavaliers often curl up for a sleep, none of the has SA & none are jealous(does get a bit crowded with two cats, three Cavaliers & a puppy all trying to sit on me at the same time )

Watch a bitch with her puppies as they grow up, they don't force the puppies away & allow them to sleep with them, it doesn't cause SA. What causes SA is the dog not used to being left & this can be prevented by training the dog from a puppy that went you go away you will return. I did it with my X breed Sam-Me who after being on the run for thre months + after being dumped, wasn't going top let me disappear out of her sight & screamed if I was missing, with patience she adjusted & ended up quite happy at being left just like my other dogs

I let my dogs on my lap
The old boy is 5 stone & getting a bit old to climb on the sofa & sit on me now (hes 14 yrs), but when he was younger he loved to climb up & have a cuddle especially in the evening, he enjoyed falling asleep on me. My pup is 8 & half stone, he loves a cuddle on my lap too (OK not much of him actualy fits on my lap, mostly just a big squishy face & paws).

My children have no problem with me cuddling the dogs, in fact the boys love the dogs to get on their laps (they normally end up squashed!!).

I've never found this type of affection to cause insecurities, it is different to molly coddling a dog. The only way it would be a problem is if you allow a dominant dog to get on your lap, ie. a dog who insists he will get on your lap, no matter what you are doing, weather you like it or not. A puppy that is looking for a safe place to sleep, where he feels secure is not displaying a dominant behavior IMO. I would class my old dog as dominant, I still let him on my lap, but on my terms - not his (ie. by invitation only not while I'm in the middle of doing a cross stitch!!!)
We got our old dog when he was 4yrs and we just had our first baby. The kids and dogs all understand that affection is something that can be shared.