Hi, can anyone help with the subject of Litter Mates.  I have never had any problems with having 2 from the same litter whatever the sex or breed.  There seems to be 'out there' a real no-no against this - fed largely by so-called Dog Behaviourists - no names mentioned, that bringing 2 puppies up together from the same litter will turn your 2 pets into monsters.  I've just spent the last hour research this on the web and would like some reason and common sense restored to this now thoroughly demoralised human!

Hi Evie,

the potential problem with having two litter mates is basically two fold   I'll start at the end and work my way back for simplicity.

When mature, littermates (particularly of the same sex and more so in some breeds than others) can have ongoing problems over status/rank which - being so closely related and of identical age - may not be resolved and prove to be an ongoing battle of not just will but with serious physical injuries sustained.  This could lead to the need for one of them to be re-homed so not an ideal outcome for the dogs involved or their family who will doubtless love them

The first and most obvious problem IME is not so much that two pups are necessarily littermates - simply that 2 pups of approximately the same age (regardless of breed similarities/differences) are more likely to bond with one another than they are to their "humans"   A great many experienced owners with good basic knowledge of training etc have admitted to being driven to distraction by attempting to train two pups at the same time.

Pups by their very nature are playful, bright, inquisitive and enjoy lots of play fighting - what better than another pup to share these pleasures?  We humans bring rules, regimes, treats and toys to the table but are still not quite as stimulating as a four legged, equally minded buddy    Of course with VERY careful and VERY dedicated separate training, separate socialising, a regime of ongoing one to one time etc to increase the bond between owner and each pup separately, these problems can be prevented or overcome but the average family only having experience normally of one dog every 10-12 years wont necessarily be aware of how best to handle "double trouble" or even that there is likely to be a need for putting steps in place LOL.  (Incidentally I find two youngsters together to be more like quadruple trouble )

This view has nowt to do with behaviourists - good, bad or indifferent - but is formed from personal experience, not with littermates but having several times owned an immature youngster with a puppy then added to the mix.  It is do-able but it is harder work even for experienced owners and is therefore IMO a situation better advised against for the average pet household

There is also a third issue here - in that having two dogs of the same or exceptionally near age may well mean losing two much loved oldies within an incredibly short period of each other.  Again, not an ideal situation.

regards, Teri

It isn't just litter mates but pups of the same or close in age.

Hi Evie! I'm afraid I have to back up what the others say! I'd consider myself a fairly experienced dog owner of multiple dogs - we've had dogs all my life, and never had less than two since 1985 - but we'd always had single pups and introduced a new one at varying intervals when the others were fairly sensible and well-trained! When we had two pups to raise at the ame time it was incredible how much harder work it was. They had to spend at least as much time apart from each other getting one-to-one with us as they did with each other. They had to be trained separately and together. After 8 years they're now at the stage I'd consider a single-raised pup would have been at the age of 2. It really is that different, and not something I'd ever consider doing again.

I suppose it must also depend on breed, I have kept litter mates and had no problems with training or hiearchery (sp). I have also got here dogs who are only a few months apart and again no problems. The problem I worry about is losing the dogs in a short space of time.

I would however NEVER sell 2 puppies together and recommend that they come back 12 months later if they still want a 2nd one, never had anyone come back before the age of 3 years.

I've had 2 pups from the same littler, (1 male, 1 female) OMG they were hooliogans!!!!!! I agree with others in that the problems stem more from the same age point of view. It is much more than double trouble.
Picture in your mind the typical pup - you need eyes in the back of your head right? well, picture that same pup with a 'partner in crime'!!!. They form there own little pack and get much more adventurous.
At one time or other a single pup may find something hes not suposed to have and chew it up, I found with 2 pups, if they find something there is soo much exitement as they egg each other on, they can desimate things. My 2 managed to sneak upstairs when we were out & vandalise an entire LP collection, they chewed the records, they 'dug' on them (there were frantic scratch marks that gave this away), on many occasion they managed to jump on the kitchen sides and eat bags of shopping. They were only small/medium sized dogs. My dad was horrified to walk in the kitchen 1 day & find 1 of them on the side eating a freshly baked tart & the other 1 on the floor waiting for the 1st to nudge the plate off (they had done this twice before, we had no idea how the plate ended up on the floor, smashed into pieces & each piece sucked clean). Looking back, I am amazed they didn't get into serious trouble. 

Depsite the female having problems with her pancreas (sp?), and later crippling arthritis, she out lived her brother by 2 years. She spent an hour every evening stood in the garden looking for him after he died, waiting  for him to come home (he was rushed to vets during an evening, he collapsed & had to be PTS).
We did loves those trouble makers though

I consider myself capeable of raising a pup/handling/training a dog even taking on an adult dog with behaviour problems, but I would not have 2 pups of the same age again. Most definately NOT just twice the work of 1 pup.

We made a lot of mistakes with those dogs, but will never forget them, they were very loving and did out grow being naughty!! RIP Snoopy & Sindy

hi i have to agree with the majority here as well, having been a breeder of labs for 10yrs and worked in a boarding kennel for over 20yrs, and owning rotties for many years, my experience is that very few pet people can successfully rear two pups and have  said pups be normal and well adjusted, most good breeders of certainly the larger breeds would not be prepared to sell two pups to the same home and definatlly not two of opposite sexes. personally i have never reared two together, its hard enough rearing one to be normal and well sociallised, why would you put yourself through the hassle of training two ? unless you have extra help at home and can organise separate training sessions, one pup always becomes the extension of the other usually more dominant pup, and separation issues can occur if one pup has to go out without his/her mate.just my observations on this matter.

I wouldn't advise it to a novice I'm afraid, though our case is slightly different. 2 male puppies of different breeds (both small spaniels) but same age, no problems until they were 3 years old when I bought a bitch, and when she was 5 months old my OH took one boy away for a long weekend while I stayed home with the other 2 dogs as I had a show, and when the 3rd dog came home the 2 boys just flew at each other. Several years and training advice later we still keep them apart much of the time as they give very little warning when they plan to kick off.

interesting, was the boy who went away the more dominant of the two boys ?, if so he could have seen boy who stayed behind as moving in on his girl so therefore needed to re assert his positition in the pack on his return while boy who stayed behind felt the need to defend his new position in the pack with the girl, a nuisance for you though having to keep them apart, luckily they were little, i looked after two Labs in my boarding kennel days which were litter brothers and at home they lived in separate parts of the house with mrs living with one and mr with the other ,one went in the back garden the other in the front, and to bring them to the kennels they came in two cars, we then had to kennel them away from each other, they both lived for about 14yrs and since their first fight at about 9mnths they never met, the owners wouldn't neuter or re home one so they struggled along all that time, incredible really. i wouldn't have.

I've got a similar situation. Neutering certainly didn't help, nor did a behaviourist. One Cavalier, one Golden, the Cav a year older than the Golden. When they were aged 3 and 2 I had a young bitch who came into season for the first time, from that day onwards the Golden hated the Cavalier. They have been kept apart ever since, which is now 10 years. I've not found it to be a problem at all really. It's second nature after all this time.

If your set up for dogs and separating sexes it can work OK, but in a home like mine and many average pet homes, where separating dogs/sexes is totally impractical because of house layout, it can make life hell.

some reason and common sense restored to this now thoroughly demoralised human!

  When you've done it and been successful I guess you do wonder what all the fuss is about.

I also would not sell two pups together or recommend anyone to do it, for all the reasons given above.

I like to think when I do have pups that I get to know them well, and sometimes you can pick out the bolder pups, the inquisitive, the more timid and laid back and it is possible to match two opposites or infact two of very laid back character, but alas it is no guarantee, a laid back pup may indeed grow up to be the dominant dog, it can work, but who really would want to take the risk knowing what we know, as when it does go wrong it is horrendous, you can have two very unruly pups or two who want to kill each other.

A breeder who would give you two pups I guess would have to be very green, have a great deal of faith in you as an owner or basically doesn't care.

In life we take risks on everything, but when it is two living creatures you would have to be very sure of yourself or be a real gambler to take that risk. You could do this 3 times with success, but on the 4th have to re-home one. That 1 in 4 chance is too much to risk IMO.

Hi Gill, they were pretty similar in rank really being the same age & size and both entire, but I would say the boy that stayed behind with me & the young bitch was slightly more dominant. I think what happened was he got used to being only male, they slept on my bed and everything, and the one that went away with my OH though he didn't sleep on the bed got loads of extra attention and got used to being only dog. It was about 3 or 4 days away I think. If mine were Lab size I don't think I could cope I must admit, but we couldn't do without either, one's my top show dog and the other one's my OH's favourite hillwalking dog!

I've got two litter mates, Labradors, brother and sister, now coming up for 6 years old with no problems.

Ive posted about this before, no doubt a search would turn up more but it's been great seeing them playing with each other & bonding together. It may be that they are closer to each other than to us but each have their own traits and have bonded well to us in their own individual ways.

I don't dispute that in some cases there can be problems (not our experience) but equally I know of many cases where littermates have worked out very well together.

Granted it's hard work at the puppy stage but then we don't own dogs for an easy life and you get out of dogs what you put in !

In our case with the dogs now in adulthood it's all working out very well and our two are proving no more diffcult than anyone else with two dogs, in fact not difficult at all.

I agree that I would never consider suggesting littermates for a first time owner but for the experienced owner, with the right breed and sexes who are prepared to put in the early hard work I'd say go for it, it can actually work out very well !

The only downside I can see to this is the fact that being the same age there is the possibility of losing them close together but then that problem exists where any dogs of a similar age live together littermates or not. I'll take that when it comes.  

Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that all the advice given elsewhere here is all wrong, only that it can work out & this is just my bit of daylight amongst all the doom and gloom here for anyone contemplating this. :D

> In our case with the dogs now in adulthood it's all working very well and our two are no more difficult than anyone else with two dogs.
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Opposite sex dogs will very rarely have hierarchy issues.

The main problem is the bonding to each other in preference to owners (which for some people isn't a problem, but may be for the dogs if they need to be separated or when one dies).

The main issue is that in our busy modern lives often people find it hard enough to make the time for training one dog let alone 3 times the time to train two. 

As breeders we have all had to deal with owners who can't cope with normal puppy behaviour ( friend had a pup back after 4 days when owners couldn't cope with the usual play biting, and they had researched and looked forward to having a pup), and who don't realise that pups have to be trained and to grow up. 

The most common age for dogs to come into rescue is under two years of age,a nd when they arrive it is quite obvious that lack of training is at the root of the problem, no matter what excuse the relinquishing owner has used.

I had litter mates, 2 bitches. To kept it short, at 4months old one starting to attack the other. I asked the trainer & CD'ers, both said the only way was to rehome home one of them. Brainless help me so much. I walked them seperatly & tried to keep them apart at home, but it was no life for any of us. I rehomed Lizzy, so heart breaking because I loved them both. 2 1/2 years later Molly is my treasure.

Unfortunately, I think that keeping two littermates of the same sex can be a problem, particularly two bitches hence the reason why we chose a brother & sister, I wouldn't advise that. I do know of other littermates successfuly living together but they are all opposite sexes with the exception of two Labrador brothers I know of who have happily lived together now for must be pushing on 10 years.

As I said in my last post I think a lot has to do with the sexes that are being kept together two bitches possibly being the worst combination likely to get along together & I also think that some breeds are possibly more suited to this than others.

Sorry to hear of your problems.

oh bad luck, two of the supposed least aggressive breeds as well, if you can manage the separate rooms bit then its ok but having had 5 dogs at one time, 3 unspayed labs and 2 un neutered Rotties all running together with no problems apart from pining with one Rott when the girls were in season i can't imagine how people can cope if they had bigger problems than you, always having to make sure the dogs never meet and having fur flying if they do, must be awful, i am a strong believer in being "top dog" in my house, having grown up with Terriers and then working with and owning large dogs i find it essential. Goldies can really fight if they get going can't they ! i worked with them for over 20yrs and very occasionally we had punch ups and boy can they go at it, they never forget either which is why you still have bother even though they are oldies now.

I agree it can work out for all the reasons you say, especially if you have one of each sex as they are much less likely to fight anyway but it takes a special person to make it work so well done to you, hope your joy continues, labs are great fun, i really miss mine, i had three girls all related and they loved each other played,ate and slept together all the time.

i bred my staffy when she was three and half she was a fantastic mum she had six beautiful pups we did not sell one of them they were bred out of love not profit. we decided to keep my favourite her name being stella, when she reached 5 months she started to attack her mother quite badly i ended up rehoming her, that was four years on she lives with another dog (male) and they get on great but even now she shows aggessation to her poor mum who greets her with such love and affection. i have never looked back sometimes things just dont go to plan, we spoke to animal behaviourist who suggested we separte them, that was no life they are far better off now.
Unfortunately we cannot breed my bitch again as she developed pyometria i think its spelt and we nearly lost her s she had to have her womb removed nut at least we gave her atatse of mother hood bless her.

thats sad for you, not heard of a youngster attacking her mum before at such a young age, at least she has a new home with another dog and all is well, shame you can't have more pups, i don't breed now and i miss it but i do get xmas cards from the people who have had them so thats nice.