Hi

As it is nearly 1 year since the docking ban came in I was wondering if breeders and owners of traditionally docked breeds would be prepared to speak about their experience following the ban. 

What are your initial thoughts regarding the ban?  Do you see the ban as a positive or negative effect on your breed  why?.  Have they experienced an increase or decrease in puppy enquires and sales, do you get specific enquires for 'docked puppies', what are your thoughts on this?  What do you see happening to the breed in the future?  Would you be prepared to take a litter to Ireland for docking?  If so - why? If not how do you perceive breeders who do this  what are their reasons?

I got chatting to a Field Spaniel breeder at Ringcraft last week (hadn't been for years, but a Friend offered to take me).

she has had terrible problems with her tailed pups.

the breed is very much dual purpose, but she does not have a shooting license etc to gain exemption, but her pups are very likely to be worked.

She has a 9 month old that will probably need it's tail amputating as ti has been damaged so much and just won't heal.

We have a bitch of a traditionally docked breed who was rescued from a puppy farm in South Wales.  She is docked as she is about 5 but we were told that the puppy farmers were moving away from traditionally docked breeds as there is less demand for the puppies with natural tails.  Therefore our girly was surplus to requirements.  She would have been shot if she had not been rescued

I love my dogs with their wagging little stumps but I would love them just as much with big waggy tails!

My friend had a similar experience when she got her second Jack Russell bitch - she came cheap as the owner didn't want to breed any more due to the docking ban.

I've posted on here a number of times in opposition to the ban and my views have not changed.  I am just waiting to see if certain breeds will suffer tail damage disproportionate to most other breeds as I suspect.

Breeders will have to start breeding for better tails, docking has been banned in parts of Europe for a long time and the dogs are still worked, at first there was a worry how the dogs would cope with their tails but many breeders have taken time to get the tails right.  We decided not to dock our last litter as we want to show and work them, spent a long time searching for a good stud dog with a good tail and tail set, looked at what offspring he was producing eventually went to Holland to mate our bitch and was very happy with the tails on all the pups born.  

Tracy

Sounds good

I think if we want dogs with small or no tails without upsetting the ban, then we need to breed dogs with smaller or no tail's .The Australian Shepherd is a good  example of a breed that has been breed with no tail . Although it would take time , I think breeding dogs with no tails is better than cutting them off

Erm Australian Shepherds can be born with a natural bob and anywhere up to a full tail but quite alot were docked.

Same with Vallhunds, they can be any length from complete stumpy to full.  I think Cardigan Corgi's have either a bob or full????  Certainly this seems to be what has been introduced into the boxer breed.  Met my first bobtailed boxer pup and you can tell it is a natural bob as it has this fatty pad around the bob.

Boston Terriers have short tails, but often they are not straight.

satincollie, is this aimed at Vinya?  Just that I think she realises that Aussies are born naturally with short tails etc?  Maybe I'm misreading it.  I know in my breed that we have dogs born with different lengths.  I have to admit that I will be aiming to keep dogs naturally born with short tails because the breed has never been bred for a tail so they are all over the place, and many of them look terrible with tails. 

This is my own personal preference of course.  Having said that I have just bred two long tails together but hoping that they both have the short tailed gene as both their mothers were born with short tails and the father of the dog produces short tails.

If I understand the genetcis of naturally short tails oen parent must be shot tailed.

No not specifically aimed at Vinya but this

>The Australian Shepherd is a good  example of a breed that has been breed with no tail  

could imply to others reading that Australian Shepherds dont have tails.

Our 2 yr old Miniature Schnauzer has been docked, and we are to collect our new Min Schn on Saturday who has a lovely long tail!  I wonder whether our older dog will be jealous?  I think the docking ban is a good thing in non-working breeds.  After all, smaller dogs were just docked to make the dog look balanced for the show ring.  There should be more laws brought in concerning dog breeding, especially when the health of the dog is at stake.  How much bigger do bulldogs' heads need to be, for example.

> How much bigger do bulldogs' heads need to be, for example.

The kennel club a long time ago changed the breed standard in the bulldogs to change massive to large in ref to the head.

Of course it takes time to alter the physical appearance of a breed as you are basically playing with evolution.  Selecting for less exaggerated characteristics will take time, and will of course.

With tails breeders of traditionally docked breeds will have to narrow their choices to dogs with strong and correctly carried tails, this could have an inadvertently negative effect (by narrowing the gene pool further) if great care is not taken.

and inbetween waiting for the tailed dogs to be bred from we will probably have litters of puppies with tails of all sorts as they were bred from dogs already docked! I'm not agreeing with the docking ban as it was originally put in place for a purpose. But if this is how it has to be then so be it, this still won't stop me wanting more of my breed when the time comes. I just find it strange that they ban tail docking when  dew claw's are still allowed to be removed ??

I have three working cockers, two of them are docked and one has his full tail. The older docked one and the undocked one are both worked (the younger one will be as well when he's old enough). My undocked dog is the boldest of the lot and will face any cover, he was out 2 or 3 days each week in the last season and never injured his tail. He's a hard worker too, he doesn't hang back at all. Saying that though, given the choice I do prefer my dogs to be docked for working, it removes any 'what if' concerns from the equation which unfortunately means I won't be able to source my dogs here in Scotland in the future.

interestingly in the 2 litters Ive bred since the ban, Ive been I guess lucky in that all pups have had quite short fat tails, in fact shorter than some working docks Ive seen. Still live in hope that the ban will be overturned though...

This is going to be confusing........

working_cockers & workingcockers - both living in Scotland, can there not be a name change?

The ban is foolish for gundog breeds.

ChrsitineW:If the dog is proven to be a working dog then it is excempt from the ban so is not foolish for gundog breeds as they would class as excempt and be free to be docked

Not entirely true.  A lady I know who works (goes beating) and breeds/shows her Fields has not been able to get her pups docked as she doesn't have a shot gun license, etc.

Also there is no exemption in Scotland.

But until the KC change the  breed standards for traditionally docked breeds, how do we know what is a correct tailset?
In my breed we are seeing all shapes and sizes, some carried high and some low........it has also altered the hind movement of the breed.  I am not against the ban, but really think alot more thought from the KC could have been forthcoming. 

Think its going to take a long time Molly1 before we all know definately how shape/size/carraige of tail should be on dogs that had previously had docked tails.
At the moment there seems to be a lot of conflicting advice.

We have had two males in Spanish in the UK produce short tailed pups even though they were born with what looked like full tails.  So it doesn't look as though they do!  I always thought that one parent had to be naturally short tailed to produce a short tail, but in Spanish it doesn't look as though this is correct. 

We actually used one of the males firstly with short tailed bitches so it wasn't until he was used with a long tailed bitch that we found this out.  The other male that has produced short tails who was born with a long tail is the nephew to the first male.

I would have thought that both male and female would have to carry the short tail gene (not necessarily have a short tail) to produce offspring with short tails which would mean that the short tail gene is recessive.

rjs

"the ban is foolish for gundog breeds" - why only gundogs??? They are not the only ones docked for a good reason.

Molly1 - the KC changed the standards for traditionally docked breeds years ago to include full tails.

> But until the KC change the  breed standards for traditionally docked breeds, how do we know what is a correct tailset?
>

That has already been done a couple of years ago the kennel club asked bred clubs to agree and draft appropriate clause for natural tails.  some clubs refused to co-operate so kennel club put their own wording.

If you look at any of the standards of traditionally docked breeds the desired natural tail and it's carriage is described.

In Response to perrodeagua

Must be different to the bobtailed gene then.  Seems to be similar to the Australian Shepherd and Vallhund where varying lengths of tail appear, not just short and long as in bob tailed Corgi (and now Boxer).

There are lots of genes in mice that produce short tails, so probably different ones in dogs too.  This is what Bruce Cattanagh found in his research and picked the simple one that the Corgi's had.

A shot gun licence is not a pre-req to getting your pups docked otherwise falcolners would be well and truly stuck!!    All she need have done is to produce a letter from the gamekeeper or beatkeeper of the shoot that she REGULARLY attends.  BASC are abe to provide the appropriate wording if she ever needs help in that area again.

I think she was given the impression it would be very hard to get exemption, and then trying to find a vet to do it.

Living in Scotland, we have no 'get out ' clauses at all!

In Response to ChristineW
This is going to be confusing........

working_cockers & workingcockers - both living in Scotland, can there not be a name change?

And we know each other!!   I'm not going to be in Scotland much longer though, I'm moving back to Ireland and will modify my profile so that should make it less confusing! I should have said in my previous post actually I won't source any more worker pups in Scotland other than from one specific breeder!

Just curious, how does the ban affect the show dogs?  If they were docked, and now arent, you could get a mixture in the ring.  Whats it like showing these dogs that were traditionally docked, and now arent.

Just plain curiousity. 

The undocked dogs are in the younger classes, and as time goes on the number of older docked dogs being shown will decrease. The next five years or so will be the 'interesting' ones!

I think it should be taken on merit at the time you require a docking and if its for medical that goes without saying it should be done.

Its always going to be split in opinion, as I am, in one hand I totally agree for breeds like the Rottweiler or Boxer to no longer dock it as it is no longer a working breed, but ones like springers I can almost imagine the tail getting caught up in nettles etc so they should be docked to prevent dangerous situations occuring, would be ideal if they would be more  breed specific on dogs not to be docked rather then a blanket ban.

Should be the same with a dog license as well, this really needs to be enforced.

I work all my dogs. 3 F/Cs and I now have a working cocker who is undocked, and I love it. I know some will hate me for saying it but she has a buetiful tail set and if the time comes and she injures it then that will be tihe time to deal with it. I remember years ago meetin a boxer (From USA) that had had his ears cropped. I remember then being horrified that anyone could do this to a puppy. for what reason? to make them look more aggressive I was told. I was very young at the time, but it still haunts me. the only mutilation I would agree with are sex offenders...........get ready for the surge! 

Whatever argument we use on here, it doesnt alter the fact that the ban was introduced because the anti-docking brigade claimed to dock puppies is cruel and painful. So it should be an all or nothing ban - if it is cruel and painful for one, it is for another, whether worked or not.

Hi
Tell her to have a look at the BASC website.  It may take a bit more planning nowadays to get a litter docked but with forethought is pretty easy from what I have heard.  People I know are lining up two vets before hand (one in case the first choice is off ill or owt like that!);  they speak to the vet beforehand and explain the documentation they propose to submit and check that the vet is happy with everything. They speak with both vets and either show drafts or explain what documents they intend to submit and get the vets agreement up front. (It's a bit late when the pups are born to discover that your vet isn't happy with one of the testimonials you are presenting from a local gamekeeper!)   

Sooo.....yes, it is more hassle but still doable for people with genuine working dogs who plan in advance.  Vets prepared to dock in my area are well known to our local gundog club;  also, I believe the council for docked breeds can provide such info.

not in scotland! its an all out bann

I wonder how legally docked dogs born after the ban will do in the show ring in a few years time as they will be the minority in some classes and areas.

Dogs docked after the ban are not allowed to be shown at KC conformation events.

> Dogs docked after the ban are not allowed to be shown at KC conformation events.

If they are legally docked they are. If the owner of a dual purpose dog has it legally docked they can show it at shows in Scotland, Ireland and in England and Wales if the public do not pay an entry fee.

Not quite correct.
Dogs legally docked in England & Wales after the new legislation came in cannot be shown in England or Wales where the public pay an entry fee (Crufts). Such dogs can be shown at all other KC events in England & Wales and at all shows in Scotland.
Dogs cannot be legally docked in Scotland anymore, so could not be exhibited at any conformation events.

Right, thanks both - my apologies, I thought they were banned full stop

But surely Crufts is not the only show with a paying gate for the public?  OK, the best known - but not the only one.....

Windsor & Paingnton schedules exclude any dogs docked after the ban, not sure about others later in the year.

SKC, Birmingham and Darlington normally have public gates with fees ....   Presumably there could be quite a few more.  So, on the proviso breed clubs don't have public gates, they may be among the very few that docked dogs can be shown?

You can show a dog that has been legally docked since the law changed at SKC, you can show them at all Scottish shows.

Tadog
Sorry, am in England, as I am surmising Brainless' friend is.

Yep I will mention it to her.  I suspect she might have thought to see how the tails would work out, but she is obviously regretting not getting them done.

I can tell you now there's hardly any vets who will dock, even if the pups are going to go to working homes and are gundogs!