Without seeing how realistic in terms of appearance and scent the robo-dog was, I'm not sure how much credence to give this study about canine communication. I've known loads of very friendly docked dogs.

Lacks ecological validity (not a real dog). Assumes that all the real dogs are going to treat the robot dog as a real dog. 

Are docked dogs more aggressive?  Mine is iffy around other dogs but assume that stems from fear aggression caused by being chased by JRTs and Boxers when she was a pup.  Hmm, all those dogs were docked. However, know docked dogs that are not aggressive at all. 

Interesting theory though, I wonder if they will extend it.

I don't know about the study, mine are docked and have no problems with communication, but that robo-dog would probably make the ideal pet for some people.

Dont think its an accurate experiment when using a robot dog.
To be honest i think its a load of rubbish. I've never known any diference in anything (other than looks obviously) between a dog with or without a docked tail.

Gosh, I'd better tell Anton not to play bow etc. when he meets pups and small dogs as he should be aggressive towards them!

Hmm better tell the 30 or so Spanish that were running around together with not an ounce of trouble that they should be aggressive coz most of them were docked !!!!!!
Think its a load of codswallop.......

When where dogs banned from using the rest of their body language then, just using a tail for communication would bel like reading a long word with significant letters removed.

And they call them selves scientists.

Funny you should say that because it was only recently I was raving about how our dog reads our body language with apparent ease.  she has learnt so many cues for various activities that I have started to try and trick her.  If she can pick up another species' body language so easily I'm sure you're right in saying that wagging tails are only a fraction of the story. Besides which my dog wags her tail when she's excited in an aggressive way as well as in being pleased to see you sort of way.

>Lacks ecological validity (not a real dog). Assumes that all the real dogs are going to treat the robot dog as a real dog

Lacks any sort of validity at all   Also assumes that these scientists are going to be treated as real scientists by the dogs and the general public 

ROLFLMAO

What on earth makes the scientists think that dogs are so stupid as to think a robot dog is real and act as if it is?    I can't believe that 'scientists' still think they can fool animals with such rubbish and expect to see any kind of normal behaviour     

This belongs in the ark along with all the research on wild animals in which real people (scientists) pretended

a. That the animals being studied couldn't see them or smell/hear/sense that they were there lurking in the bush
b. that they weren't having an effect on the behaviour/psychology of the animals being studied  :we really need that rolling eyed smiley:

Bet they got paid lots of lovely money to play at Blue Peter making robot dogs with changing tails LOL

I always said if I had to live my life all over again, I would go for a career in Science.....Mmmm.....**has rethink**

My guess is the only communicating (moving) tool on the Robo-dog was its tail. 

In the absence of all other communication tools, what's a dog got to do, fix on and perceive 1 moving signal when only 1 is available? 

Combine the tail or not as the case may be with all other living communication signals and a totally different story emerges.

Dogs aren't stupid; they seem to be able to tell a dog is a dog and not a cat, despite the different shapes, colours, breeds.

From Study...

>That, he said, was consistent with normal dog behaviour. In dog "language" a wagging tail usually means "come play with me,"

Not necessarily, a wagging tail can also mean aggression and suspicion, only when combined with all other body language can it be really determined what a dog means...

Tail is something I'd hardly look at when reading a dog; it's the full picture and the vides, that said, I like tails...

Rather naive bunch of Scientists...methinks...

what a ludicrous way to conduct a study!

I have a mechanical puppy here; press a button on its paw and it wags its tail, barks too.  Oh got it as a prezzie for his little nephew but when looking closely, realised it was for age 3 and above.  Dogs have always treated it as a cuddly toy - to be chewed, needless to say it sits on top of the sofa and they don't show any interest.  They've never been once fooled into thinking it was a real pup. Silly dogs, lol 

I agree using a robot is suspicious science but Dr. Stanley Coren has a section in his book, "How to Speak Dog", that deals with this very subject and includes docked (or whatever the proper word is) ears as well.  He certainly does not go as far as to make the same sweeping generalization but does suggest communication in both directions, ie. from docked to undocked and vice versa, may be impaired and more easily misread.  Dr. Coren suggests the docked dog might just as easily become timid as negative experience with other dogs misreading the lack of tail can be intimidating.  It all depends on the dogs.

I read the actual paper and they do acknowledge some of the limitations of their research.  Often these "initial" observations are thesis topics or articles written by graduates under supervision.  Once published their peers will respond by citing in their own research either positively or negatively.  They are not meant to be taken as gospel but as a starting point for discussion in order to move the research forward if findings warrant.

We shouldn't be too harsh, research has to start somewhere.

> docked (or whatever the proper word is) ears as well

cropped

i quite agree that docked and cropped animals may have more trouble signaling than others, they've had body parts lopped off! i think however that it applies with many breeds simply becasue of breed characteristics though- bassets can't signal well with those ears, bulldogs/bullmastiffs/rottweillers and others are front heavy breeds who may look a little like they are straining forward due to their chest sizes, even when standing still, curled tailed spitz breeds might be seen as behaving overly dominantly because of their tail set etc etc..

but a dog knows if a dogs real or a robot though.

I have one of the most curly tailed of the Spitz breeds yet mine are the most sociable and confident canine communicators around.

They do not get targetted as wimps either,a dn in fact dogs that are bully's tend to back down when they stand their ground, and mien will then ignore or invite them to play.

i wasn't meanign to suggest it has an effect in all cases, as well socialised dog should know that dogs all look different. just in some cases i think it probably has an effect on interpretation by certain dogs

just in some cases i think it probably has an effect on interpretation by certain dogs

Or could it be the humans?  When you see a lop eared, full tailed dog, what do you think?  Friendly. 

When you see a cropped/docked dog, people tend to have stereotypes on the breed already.  For example:  You see a Spaniel, and you want to go fuss it up.  Why?  Because spaniels have this stereotype that they are friendly.  You see a person with a Doberman walking down the street, with cropped ears and docked tail, you are nervous of that dog.  You cross the street from that dog.  Why?  Because the media has instilled fear of the breed into you.  When you see a Doberman left natural, you wouldnt even recognize it as a doberman, and you walk by with no second thoughts. 

We do this with our dogs as well.  We are teaching our dogs that they should be scared of dogs that look this way.  Lop earred, long tail, dog is ok.  Dog with cropped ears and docked tail, something to be scared about. 

Could the dogs in the park, in the study, have been cautious because they didnt understand what was going on?  There is this thing (the robot) that looks like them, somewhat acts like them, but doesnt smell like them, or communicate like them (I would imagine it would be very rigid movements with a robot).  Of course they are going to approach with caution. 

But in puppy play class, my cropped and docked dog was the one every other dog wanted to play with.  Interesting. 

> When you see a Doberman left natural, you wouldnt even recognize it as a doberman, and you walk by with no second thoughts

I think few people in the UK have ever sen a cropped dobe except in US films.

spaniels are traditionally docked yet still have the friendly stereotype and GSD's have tails and people cross the street,  Cropping and docking have nothing to do with how a bred is perceived to be in temperament.

quite possibly, in fact very likely.

> You see a Spaniel, and you want to go fuss it up.

not me though i'd prefer the dobe

spaniels are traditionally docked yet still have the friendly stereotype and GSD's have tails and people cross the street,  Cropping and docking have nothing to do with how a bred is perceived to be in temperament

I dont believe that is the case.  Talking purely where a natural dog, isnt the norm, there is a set of stereotypes.  When a dog is left natural, like the norm in the UK, there is a percieved softer image to them.  Not so scary.  My aunt would caution anyone to get the dog socialized before they get their ears done.  Because after they get their ears done (talking purely here) they then look like the normal canadian Doberman.  And that is what people fear.  But before the ears are done, the Dobe looks kinda houndish.  Therefor not as scary.  Talking purely on drawn experience.  Most of the time with a natural earred Dobe, no one thinks its a Doberman.  They are always asking what breed it is. 

With the min pins, people still want to come up and pet and fuss them, but its mainly because they are small.  Small dogs arent seen as scary.

As far as the GSD, they arent so popular in my area.  Basically the only GSD you see are seeing eye dogs, which the working dog aspect takes away any fear.  Working dogs are supposed to be friendly.  So they dont fear the GSD as much here (In the town I am living in.  Other places, I would imagine have a higher GSD count, and therefore could have a different perspective on things.) 

> Because after they get their ears done (talking purely here) they then look like the normal canadian Doberman

As I said it isn't because of the docking or cropping they are perceived as their stereotype, but because they don't look like the breed people are used to seeing.  I know Dobe owners who find the public treat Brown dobes totally differently as often they don't realise that is what they are.

Here in the UK people have always seen Dobes with natural ears, if they saw one cropped, they might not recognise it as a dobe, so wouldn't react to it as a dobe.  People don't realise a Rottie with a  tail is a rottie so often think it's a Lab cross and act differently to it.

So as I said the cropping or docking are irrelevant in the way a  breed is perceived other than to aid recognition of the breed (as it is usually seen) and it's stereotype.

I have a friend with a white GSD bitch that was born with a screw tail, just a bent stump.  She is not perceived to be a GSD.

>spaniels are traditionally docked yet still have the friendly stereotype and GSD's have tails and people cross the street,  Cropping and docking have nothing to do with how a bred is perceived to be in temperament.

I agree with that statement.  Docking has nothing to do with the way I feel about certain breeds, it has all to do with media attention over the years.

Any breed that I have come across that I have been unfamiliar with I have not felt frightened of whether they have tails or not.  However, GSDs I am fearful of because I have been chased and lunged at by a few - first one I can remember as a small child with my mum, nan and baby brother across farmland and my nan picked me up and threw me over a barbed wire fence then helping my mum through it with this ferocious sounding GSD getting closer and closer - boy,  nostalgia My friend's boyfriend opened his front door to me and his GSD leapt from the lounge doorway across the hall and my friend's bf grabbed him mid-air - what are you supposed to do? Freeze is what you do do! They weren't my only experiences of GSDs and I have been ran at by off-lead barking Dobe whereby I tried to climb up my husband in sheer panic.

It's our experiences or known experiences of other people (media reporting) that cause our fears, not the appearance of a tail or lack of. 

I've only seen cropped ears in a Bond movie, the one where the baddie has the 2 Dobes sitting waiting for him to click his fingers as a cue to eat the meat he has thrown to them.

> As far as the GSD, they arent so popular in my area.  Basically the only GSD you see are seeing eye dogs, which the working dog aspect takes away any fear.  Working dogs are supposed to be friendly.  So they dont fear the GSD as much here (In the town I am living in.  Other places, I would imagine have a higher GSD count, and therefore could have a different perspective on things.) 

See in UK Guide Dogs are primarily gun-dog breeds Labrador and Golden Retriever mixes often, and the GSD tends to be seen as a guard dog Police dog, not friendly dog.  Very rare to see a GSD guide dog in the UK.