I know several members are very knowledgeable about regs as they are show secretarys etc.  Was aksed something at weekend about a situaiton I have never come across before, and wondered if anyone knew if it is OK or not.  An open show has listed 6 classes for a breed, invited judge and invitation accepted.  Said judge not eligible to judge 6 classes of this breed, as is on "c" list and woudl need to be on "B" list.  Show society made aware of this, and have simply split the classes between 2 judges, so they do 3 classes each of this breed.  Not split into dogs and bitches, just one jduge does 1st 3, the other judge then takes over and does next 3.  My friend was very dubious about this being permissible, and did not want to travel to show in  hope of picking up JW points just to have them taken away by KC.  It does not seem to be at all right to me, but as I have never come across a similar situation I could not give any advise - anyone any thoughts?

Umm like you have only ever known it to be done between sexes, not class numbers!

I know this can be done on the day if a judge is delayed or taken ill but I'm not sure about doing this under these circumstances.

In Response to gwen

Certainly happens abroad where if a judge draws to many dogs they give the lower classes to someone else(usually the ones where the dogs can't challenge for Certificates).  At least the exhibitors here had the option of knowing in advance, but certainly as curious as you if this is allowed.

Certainly splitting by sex is not unusual.

One thing that puzzles me in this......who will judge BOB?. 

I have never come across this either.. and personally would not find this split acceptable... however.. there are ways around it...

at next committee meeting... the committee could reduce the breed class to 5 classes and perhaps put on an extra av class for that group... this would give the (I am assuming newish judge) her chance to judge and increase her numbers...

otherwise, I would request the committee to re-consider her contract.. as she has technically signed a contract she cannot fulfill....

for this show maybe asking her to stand down from her contractual obligation (technically she doesnt have one) and give the classes to a 'b' list judge,

As chairman of our association.. these would be my options

As a show person.. chances are, this show would not get my entry for the day under these circumstances...

splitting by sex MIGHT alleviate the problem as each sex should be favoured with the same number of classes... but could be accceptable for the puppy classes (if any) are either sex classes...giving the 'b' list judge the puppy class... leaving 5 classes for the 'c' list and 6 classes for the 'b' list judge.. with the 'b' list judging BOB

so you do have a couple of options there..

I have seen at open shows 2 judges, one for each sex, indeed have judged at one, but have never heard of the split by anything other than sex. Clearly this judge should not ahve accepted had they known there were 6 classes, or the sociaty may not have asked them about being on a list, or just decided to put on too many classes. This is a very unsatisfactory situation for all concerned, it would be best if the judge were to withdraw, the society could always invite them for the next year and split the classes by sex.

> I have never come across this either.. and personally would not find this split acceptable... however.. there are ways around it...

> so you do have a couple of options there..

Thanks for the input everyone,

kayc, It is not my show, I am simply co-owner of a puppy who is entered, and the other owner is now uncertain if it is worth the trip of about 150 (round trip) miles if any win would not count!  Entries have now closed and show is in May.  For this breed C list judges can only judge up to 3 classes, so they have simply appointed another C list judge, making 3 classes each, when it was pointed out to show that the judge was not qualified for the scheduled 6 classes.  As the schedules are not only out but entries closed I don't think that splitting the sexes would be a possibility.

Interesting point raised about who will judge BoB -hadn't even thought about that one! 

Surely BOB would be judged the same as at a champ show yet all dogs would have to be judged by each judge and lets hope they agree! :D  Otherwise, as standard, bring in the referee (group judge)

I would phone the KC and speak to someone there about it. You have plenty time to get an answer, even if you emailed them. That way you will know if it's worth while showing your dog.

>>For this breed C list judges can only judge up to 3 classes,

Apologies Gwen.. I need to get out of gundog mode.. automatically assumed 5 classes for 'c' list

and again.. assumed that it was a shedule entry stage and not closed...

I feel this is very poor management from the committees point of view, bearing in mind that most show judging appointments are made and accepted 18months in advance.. ...t

I would agree that best idea would be to telephone the KC for guidance...

Glad to find out that this is not common practice and it was not just my mind playing tricks on me when it made no sense.   Will get on to KC and ask them.

Just wanted to update everyone on the outcome, I emailed the Kennel Club this morning, and got a reply back within a couple of hours!  (Well done KC!!!)  It is NOT permissible to split a breed's classes in this way.  Now have to contact the club, which I do with some trepidation, don't know if I will be thanked for pinting out whtt cold be a costly error for the society and judges or criticised for intefering!

They should really thank you Gwen as you will be possibly saving them a fine. I know it will be hard but they hopefully have  time to change the judge and inform the exhibitors.

good to see the KC responded quickly...

Agree with Gillian.. the committee should thank you for saving their skins really... I am still amazed that they were going down this route..

Main thing is that they do something about it.. and appoint a replacement judge ...

Well done.. I wonder how many people would sit back and hope that 'someone else' will say something ..

Edited to add... I have a feeling that club will still be fined.. replacement judge will not come under the definitive guidelines as laid down by KC... ie: c**k ups are not covered

It will be the original judge that is in trouble as you have to sign to say that you are eligible to judge the classes in the contract. The show committee can terminate the contract within the KC rules if they find out that the judge is not eligible to judge. If they go ahead with the split classes than they will be trouble

Sorry I missed this thread earlier

Hi again everyone, thought those of you who replied to this thread might like an update.  The show was today, and went ahead with 2 judges, as when I rang the Secretary he insisted they could split the classes as they liked!  I spoke to one of theother officers of the club today, who got very defensive and really a little bit nasty!  She said they had consulted the red book, after my pohone call, and nothing was in it about this situation, so they coudl go ahead.  The field officer was present, and after someone else brought thematter up they consulted him, he also said it was OK!  I showed her the KC email, but she brushed it off, saying they change their minds time and again and could not be relied on for accurate advice.  She had a bit of a rant about the breed being difficult to deal with as a whole, and impossible to get judges who were qualified for 6 classes, as no-one on the B list wanted  to travel!  Refused to look at the KC email, and snapped at me "so you reported us!!" - which I had not, as just gave the KC the procedural details, not the clubs name and dates.

The judging attracted quite a bit of attention from exhibitors in other breeds, and several came across wanting to know what was going on.  One of the daftest things was that one dog, entered in Puppy, was also entered in an adult class, which is perfectly OK of course, as he would just have appeared as a seen dog, but with this loopy system he ended up being judged by both judges!  Don't know which one will be able to count him in their numbers, or if he will count as 2 dogs! They both judged BoB, and agreed on it without problem, and then the first judge awarded BPIP.  It seemed strange that every single person who came across to ask what was happening agreed that it was not possible to go ahead in this way, yet the show committee were oblivious to the error.

The KC field officer is mainly there to check the show is run correctly & when the marked catalogue gets back to the KC & the two judges are shown then it may be picked up, however if the catalogue doesn't show the two judges they will probably get away with it.

Field officers aren't there to check if the judges are correctly qualified as far as I know, but are a sort of quality check on the Show Management

Gwen, I am sure you are correct and the show committee are wrong, you can split classes by sex and if it is not in the schedule the change required from one to two judges has to go the KC for approval and then advertised in the dog press. There has also to be a referee and the name of this person has to go to the KC and be advertised too.

Unlike a change of judge too close to the show for this process to happen this must have been pre planed and they should have followed the process laid down by the KC

Edit to say - having reread the whole post it appears the appointed judge mislead the committee as to their qualification to judge 6 classes or the committee made a mistake in appointing them. What they should have done was appoint a B listed judge and informed the KC and press of that change. I can't believe that it is so easy for judges in the breed to get on the A list that they refused to travel and if it was the committees error perhaps an offer to help with expenses would have helped.

or nova< what they can do is contact the KC and if the breed club< society and judge agree you can judge more classes then that is fine too in the kcs eyes this happend to my dad when he and the show secretary thought a breed as band e so he could judge % classes but they had been removed from band e without anyone being aware>  he judge them no problem and noone had a problem with him doing it>

Sounds quite bizarre! Imagine if the puppy had won that class, but been beaten in the adult class, which I know can happen under one judge, but then the first judge had wanted to award him BOB or RBOB or something!!

then they wouldn't agree in the first place would they for BOB

The puppy was a beaten dog.......but supposing the other first prize winners in the remaining 5 classes were also beaten......i.e Junior winner beaten in graduate by another junior that it had beaten in junior and so on.......there wouldnt have been any dog that remained unbeaten for BOB.  An absolute fiasco!!!.  Hope this makes sense...I know what I mean...lol

Yes, I had not thought it through that far, but it could easily have descended into chaos!  As it was it went fairly smoothly, but it would be a shame if the puppy gets its JW points taken away because the whole breed judging was against regs.  BoB got his Sh CM years ago, so no problem there.  I don't understand why the committee was so hell bent on sticking to it's original (wrong) idea, and simply would not listen to reason!  I know some KC rules seem almost pointless, but most do have some sort or reason behind them.  When you think about it, there is no way judging could be condoned like this, it is fraught with problems all over the place!  However the "officer of the club" to whom I spoke simply could not see any difference between this and splitting the breed by sex!
Someone ringside who was laughing their socks off at the whole fiasco, and is on the committee of a show society, said that they thought the club and the judges would be fined for infringements.  Then there is the awful thought that someone coudl have followed the way this was judged, and not knowing it was incorrect could appoint similar classes at another show - the whoel thing could snowball before it was made generally known that it is wrong!

I know that when I have replied to other messages I have quoted the K.C. many times, but they are the ruling body. I always recommend that all exhibitors try to get a copy of the K.C. Rules for Secretarys. They now do one that only costs £1.50, but it can save and solve a lot of the problems that occur. I am seriouslly worried that a Club Secretary is as ignorant of the rules as this one. I only hope that their Treasurer is more efficient.

> I always recommend that all exhibitors try to get a copy of the K.C. Rules for Secretarys

Both Secreatry and Treasurer insisted that the "red book" had been consulted.  I don't know if it is actually down in black and white what combinations of people are not allowed to judge certain nnumbers of classes, rather than who is, if you get where I am coming from.  To list everyone who cannot might go on ad infiitum!  Whereas stating who can is a whole lot simpler, and most people can then  understand that any other combination is not allowed - don't know if I am explaining this properly.  I know I was initially worried about the show committee not being too pleased to be informed that there was a mistake, but I had no idea the resposne would be so hostile, and competely unwilling to believe they had acted incorrectly.  Don't know if the judges themselve realised it was wrong, they conducted everything in an efficient manner, especially allowing for the unusual circumstances !!!

Will be interesting to see if the KC do anything to set the club right, otherwise they might do this again and again!

> Both Secreatry and Treasurer insisted that the "red book" had been consulted

Did they seem to you Gwen the sort of people who would have understood it. In fairness it is very difficult to understand, one moment you think you have found the answer and then flick on a bit and find something that seems to contradict the first thing you read.

The new "MANUAL FOR KENNEL CLUB REGISTERED SOCIETIES/CLUBS" is easy to read and very helpful but even that does not cover some of the finer points.

All that apart it is hard to see how people with so little experience could be running a show or perhaps they are just so arrogant that they were not prepared to listen and carried on with their plan because it was their plan and were determined not to admit an error.

> All that apart it is hard to see how people with so little experience could be running a show or perhaps they are just so arrogant that they were not prepared to listen and carried on with their plan because it was their plan and were determined not to admit an error.

I don't know them personally, but the Treasurer said she had been runnning shows for years and years, and she awards CCs in at least 1 breed, so hardly a novice.  My own thoughts are that someone came up with this idea on the spur of the moment, without giving it proper thought, and then they appear to have decided that anyone pointing out an error may have been made is making a personal attack, or perhaps they realised the mistake when it was pinted out, and decided to  close ranks and deny all, hopping it woudl just go away!  She certainly reacted very strongly when I tried to show her the KC email, hissing at me "You reported us!!!"

Thing is, it is hardly a life changing event, just a silly little blip, and mistakes can happen in any walk of life, but the only sensible way to get over them is to listen when they are pointed out, and find a way to put them right!  Doing an ostrich act and hiding their heads in the sand will hardly help the club!

Personally I think that I would report them as they seem to have been so rude.

I've come across many show offcials who think they know best and they especialy don't like a young female telling them they are wrong, luckily when this has been said I've had the red book to back me up.

> I've come across many show offcials who think they know best

Well,  of course, I do

Ahhh but you know you know, not think you know!

> Ahhh but you know you know, not think you know! <

LOL Ice Queen only wish I really did, every show I do something comes up that sends me rushing to search the Red Book for an answer and even then it usually ends in my having to e-mail the KC for more clarity, which bless them I rarely get, sometimes wonder if they are as confused as we are when it comes to some of the more obscure rules and regs.

But at least you do consult the Red book and the KC rather then ignoring all and saying you are right.  My Father has had it afew times where he has had things questioned and had to ask KC whether it's judging or running a show.

p.s just relised who you are and welcome back?

> p.s just relised who you are and welcome back? 

Thank you, but tell me how did you know.

Had a nosey at your profile after you said about you being a show offcial, thought I would see who and it all just clicked with the name, and the society! (Must admit I did do afew forum searches first to be sure! )

Doh! did not think of that, bit of a giveaway; should just have listed the speedway url and that would have fooled you

I know too, welcome back you've been missed.

Dawn R.

How kind, thank you

Yes it would have done!  Too much detail to gave away, rememberd your name anyway which made me look at link!

You have been missed, it's been years!  Nice to have your knowledge and friendly "face" back! :D

Even better to see the friendly face after ages.  Will you be at Stafford Jackie?

Thanks Barbara, it is my plan to be at Stafford, but I don't take anything for granted these days.

Ice Queen, it was not the name you knew, I have never used it before, must have been my sparkling prose

Edit how stupid, you meant Jackie not Nova

Make sure you knock me on the head when you see me then Jackie as you know I don't see anyone or anything until it's bang under my nose :D

Yes I ment Jackie! :D  Nova has sent me confused for the whole time :D  It was your full name that triggerd memories!

How dare you sneak back so sly without a word! :D

Have been trying ever since I went but my return was not in my hands. Did not mean to sneak but was told I could not use my original name or may be my affix, can't remember getting far to old to remember anything unless it happened at least 20 years ago.

Nova was my first GSD so thought I would use that as I don't use it anywhere else I needed something I would not forget

Barbara will make myself know to you if I can, saw you at the Club show but a bit to busy to talk to anyone really, shame because I like a natter almost as much as you.

> Barbara will make myself know to you if I can, saw you at the Club show but a bit to busy to talk to anyone really, shame because I like a natter almost as much as you

Surely that would take some doing :D

> Surely that would take some doing :D

LOL!

Welcome back Nova!  I'll see you both tomorrow then, all being well.

Get the ear plugs in girls.  Stuart has the option of switching off the hearing aid.

Hi Vanessa, sorry I missed you last week, Varg not having been in the ring for nearly two years I was going to inflict him on you. Circumstances stopped my being there, hope you had a good day.

Been trying to work out the time, 121 R.R.s surely will not be finished by 11.30, what do you and Barbara think? You know it is almost like I had never shown can't remember what it is I need to take, LOL apart from Varg that is;-) and a camera.

We decided we will leave at about 8am (to aim to get there for 10 or so) in case it gets hot and kick our heels shop etc first.  Andy wants to get hi eye tested so can do that and the drops will have worn off by judging.

Yes, I thought earlier rather than later because of the heat, but for a retired old lady getting ass into gear too early in the morning comes a bit hard.