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Previous Next Up Topic Dog Boards / Behaviour / Should I neuter my 3 year old Vizsla
By DenaliStar Date 02.04.08 20:45 GMT
I am having issues with my Vizsla 3 year old, Denali.  He is a non-neutered mail very well exercised and loyal.  First I want to give you an idea of the kind of disposition he normally has.  Denali has a good amount of dog friends that he is wonderful and friendly with at all times.  All my fellow neighborhood and other dog friend owners love Denali for so many reasons, including how wonderful he is with their dogs and other people.  He is super gentle and calm around children as well.

I have made socializing a major part of his life these past years.  I socialize him among different people, children, and all types of dogs at all types of dog parks.  Most of the time he is the coolest dog at the dog park, energetic, friendly and fun!  However I fear things are beginning to change as he gets older.  A while back there was a few instances where he fought with other dogs for reasons such as protecting me from a dog he was not familiar with who charged over to Denali and I; and again when another dog ran up to us during a Frisbee toss and Denali wanted to protect the Frisbee so he lashed out; and other instances with other non-neutered dogs.  These instances occurred within a span of approximately 3 months and I decided to make changes to our excursive routine in hopes of fixing the problem myself.  For example, I made sure I ran him before bringing him around other dogs or to a dog park, that way it would release any pinned up energy he had.  I also learned to relax and stay calm when he would greet a new dog so that he would not sense my fear.  Another example is I spoke in a very cheery voice as Denali and the new dog smelled each other over.  In my socializing routine I made sure that he met at least a few new dogs every week, just to make sure he was keeping up with being friendly with the unfamiliar dogs.  This seemed to really help for another two months.  I hardly had any fighting instances at all!  The only problem was unneutered dogs and I simply avoided them at all costs.  So, I had it easy for a while.  However, this recent spring has arrived, and as all the new odors of the world are more prominent at the parks and in fields where my dog plays more issues are reoccurring.  In the past 2 weeks I have seen major problems with him again.  First instance this past week we came in contact with a feisty non-neutered Jack Russell Terrier.  There was a quick fight but the result was unfortunately a cut from Denali's tooth on the Jack Russell.  I was so worried, I exchanged numbers with the owner and sent them copies of Denali's updated shots to assure them he was up to date.  We both had our dogs on a leash and the other owner was very nice and had the whole 'dogs will be dogs' attitude, luckily.  So, just after this occurred I left Denali with a friend, while I went out of town, who has a dog that is very close with Denali, they got along great.  But over the weekend he had two dog fighting instances with dogs he was unfamiliar with under her supervision!  And the dogs were not unneutered males.  One of the instances she describes is keeping me up at night.  Denali fought with an spayed 3 year old female Boxer at a dog park, when the fight had ended, the Boxer owner was trying to soothe Denali and reached for him while he had his dog in his other hand, somehow at that point Denali nipped the owner, possibly associating his hand with the other dog??  Whatever the case he has never bit a person before and it is thought to have been and accident by the people involved, but there is no excuse!!  The owner was sympathetic and everyone in the situation knew it was very unlike Denali to act in this way.  He was taken home.  Another out of the norm situation she also describes is a time that he bolted from a field with his tale between his legs leaving her behind.  She couldn't chase him down so two nice ladies gave her a ride to find him.  Fortunately, they did.

This email is a horror story in my book.  I am not sure what exact reasoning is behind any of this.  These are not excuses but I might be able to paint a fuzzy picture as to some of the possibilities of what could have helped trigger these horrific incidents, 1) he was not fully exercised prior to the dog park. 2)the odors of spring are bringing out different emotions. 3)he is unneutered and changing into a more territorial, aggressive male (which would mean I need to consider neutering him, if it is not too late; a very sensitive subject but I would like to talk to you more about this!).  I understand that I have been lucky that the owners involved in these instances obviously see that he is a well behaved dog in most cases and having these out of the ordinary sudden urges, but I also know there could be a time when someone presses charges or takes it way too far and I need to prevent this from happening.

I can honestly say that a huge amount of my life revolves around my dog.  I obviously want what is best for him.  I know I need to protect Denali as well as protect other dogs from his outbursts.  I plan on purchasing a mussel for the time being.  I would love your thoughts, let me know if you think Denali should be neutered along with the professional training I AM DEFINITELY DOING. 

Thank you so much for taking the time to read this lengthy email. 
By Carrington (*****) [gb] Date 02.04.08 21:20 GMT
Hi,

Your going to get a very mixed bunch of advice from us, but in this instance I would advise neutering.

I say this as someone who did not have my own male dog neutered he stayed entire his whole life and all bar one family male dog none have been neutered, so it is not something I usually advocate. Unless there is a problem I basically do not see any point in neutering a male dog, (a female dog I have a different view althogether ;-) )

My reasonings in your case are he is fully mature now, so we can't blame his behaviour on adolescents if he were attacking adolescent males I can also understand this behaviour, but apart from attacking neutered dogs he has also attacked a fully mature female. He has snapped/bitten a person too.  He's an accident waiting to  happen, and yes you have been very lucky, probably due to your apologetic nature and that you have taken full responsibility, unlike many. :-(

Your socialising, your training, and you seem to have a good grasp on male dogs behaviour and your very responsible to muzzle at the moment, so what is left................. there is only to neuter and hope this will stop his aggressive behaviour.

As you probably know to neuter a less confident dog can actually cause aggression, so unless you feel he strikes out because he is afraid, I think neutering is the way to go with him.

I'm sure you will get many view points but this is mine. :-)
By DenaliStar Date 02.04.08 21:40 GMT
Thanks for your response.  I would like to clarify that neutering is not the only thing that is left since the professional training has not begun yet, but will within the next few weeks. So I am unable to report any progress of course.  But I am hoping that there will be progress.  Coupling that with neutering are the TWO remaining options. 
By DenaliStar Date 02.04.08 21:51 GMT
oh, and to your other point, I do feel he is a confident dog.
By Brainless (Moderator) [gb] Date 02.04.08 21:54 GMT

> As you probably know to neuter a less confident dog can actually cause aggression, so unless you feel he strikes out because he is afraid, I think neutering is the way to go with him.
>
>


This is my only worry that the poster needs to be sure he is not acting out of fear, she mentions him running off with tail between his legs, has had scuffles with overbearing males, and when he felt himself and his owner threatened.  Boxers are often quite dominant in their posture (male and female) and their short noses mean they often make snorting noises that can unnerve a sensitive dog.

I would consult a behaviourist first who can see how he behaves around strange dogs to ascertain if he is defencive or being male dominant.

If the former then castration could make things much worse, it the latter, it may improve things as he will feel less need to assert himself.
Barbara and the Grey Curly Tails.
By morgan (***) [gb] Date 03.04.08 08:08 GMT
i dont know enough to comment on the neutering angle, but if it was me i would seek out a behaviourist for the reasons brainless gives . good luck, you are obviously a very dedicated and sensisble owner that will find a way to deal with this. x
By LindyLou (****) [gb] Date 03.04.08 08:30 GMT
Have you been in touch with other Viszla owners and/or his breeder? They would be the best people to advise you as they know the breed. If you go on to the hpr forum (I'll send the address by PM) they will be better able to advise you than the people on here as they are specifically for your type of dog. I'm not saying that the people on here won't be able to help you, there are several Viszla owners on here, but the hpr site is breed specific.
Life is not a bed of roses but a comedy of errors
By Carrington (*****) [gb] Date 03.04.08 10:01 GMT
Have you been in touch with other Viszla owners and/or his breeder

Excellent point of course that should be the first port of call.

I have to say though this is not a Viszla trait to be dog aggressive, I know 5 Viszla's through my dog walks, 3 different owners and the ones I meet are in no way dog aggressive. :-)
By Rach85 (****) [gb] Date 03.04.08 10:09 GMT
Neutering a dog will not stop any aggresisve tendancies as this is in the dogs nature or personality, but may help him concentrate more on training, but it is not a quick fix what so ever.
By BETTYBOO1963 (**) [gb] Date 03.04.08 11:05 GMT
I had exactly the same problem as you with my 18 month old weimaraner, a few months ago.
He is usually a well mannered and friendly dog, however he did the same thing and became slightly snappy with other uneutered males specifically.
I posted on here and i must say i didnt really have a very good response, however...
I had him castrated, i was never intending to breed from him. Nothing has really changed with his behaviour,yet, if it will or not ,but I have changed my way of dealing with him.
He has many doggy friends , which he plays with and no agression whatsoever, there are a couple of dog he cannot be allowed too close to , although these dogs i know and we allow them near each other but they are chastised if they show any weird behaviour around each other. The other dogs owner does not tell his dog off and I know now that the dog is agressive to other dogs, but i feel that they need to see each other and be told that any agression is inappropriate.
If i see any dogs that are unklnown to me i call him before he gets to go near them and sometimes, depending on the size and breed of dog i will let him greet them but be aware that maybe a dispute may occur. I find if i put my dog on the lead he is more stroppy towards dogs than off lead.  I think that you just have to be aware that not all dogs get on and it may not be your dog giving off bad vibes.
However if you can afford any dog behaviour training then you can never go wrong.
Hope this helps.
By Gunner (***) [gb] Date 03.04.08 11:06 GMT Edited 03.04.08 11:08 GMT
Hi
Not sure what the situation is like in the USA but here in the UK Vizslas (in my opinion) have suffered as a breed resulting from their increasing popularity as family pets over the last few years.  There are many good working and show kennels whose dogs do display the correct temperament, but there are also many pet breeders/farms from which the dogs appear to be very nervous and also prone to various digestive ailments.  (Yes, I am generalising, but I have seen a lot of nervy, skin and bone Vs of late  :-(

Have you been back in touch with your breeder for advice?  That would be my first port of call, then a GOOD behaviourist, then maybe the Tardak jab, then depending on the result of that maybe castration.

Good Luck!
Jan

PS  Final thought.....are you female and do you live on your own by any chance?  Sorry, if that's a bit personal but am just wondering if Denali is getting so closely bonded with you that he sees it as his role to have to protect you and stop other people/dogs getting close to you.  They are not known as the velcro dog for nothing and if his pack only consists of you and him for the majority of the time then that may be highlighting his guarding instincts.  If on the other hand, you have a large family, just ignore.....just me theorising!  :-)
Jan
By Tigger2 (***) [gb] Date 03.04.08 13:29 GMT

> Neutering a dog will not stop any aggresisve tendancies


Neutering certainly can stop aggressive tendencies if the aggression is hormone related. I know several dogs that have improved dramatically after neutering, my own Mr Beastly being one of them. It's not a magical fix though of course, and training and ongoing socialisation combined with the falling hormone levels is most beneficial.
By Rach85 (****) [gb] Date 03.04.08 13:33 GMT
Well it doesnt stop it the does it? lol If training is still needed it isnt stopped!
So what I said is true :-)

It will not stop the aggressiveness to have neutered but may lighten it up a bit, but training and socialisation are a must to get any dog ready for interactions.
By Tigger2 (***) [gb] Date 03.04.08 13:33 GMT
In reply to Gunner, I agree with your post about the breeder being first port of call, then a behaviourist but not with the tardak jag I'm afraid. I've never found it of any use really- possibly because it takes so long for the hormones to clear their system?
By Perry (**) [gb] Date 03.04.08 15:59 GMT
After my 2 year old entire male being attacked by an older entire male last week, I think I can answer this from the other owners perspective and that is definitely castrate him and also until you know he is safe and won't attack any other dogs then you have to keep him muzzled.

The attack on my dog has had a terrible affect on me more than my dog and I am petrified of walking my dogs now, I have to walk them but as soon as I see another dog I turn around and go another way, not always convenient and very confusing for my boys.
 
By perrodeagua (*****) [gb] Date 03.04.08 16:21 GMT
After knowing a male that was neutered for the same problems, I don't know whether neutering would help.  He in my eyes has actually become worse after neutering and has actually transferred his attentions elsewhere also now.

Sorry I really don't know what to advise but hope you find something that will resolve or lessen the problem.

Gunners comments are quite interesting though as the owner of the dog involved is a single female.
My dogs aren't my whole life, but my life wouldn't be whole without them. 05/01/08 11 stone 12 lbs
By pinklilies (****) [gb] Date 03.04.08 17:21 GMT Edited 03.04.08 17:24 GMT
Sorry if I missed anything in your post, but have you taken him to a vet? I dont want to worry you unnecessarily, but occasionally a personality change can be due to a health related issue. This was the case when my Aunts border terrier started becoming aggressive, when he had been fine before ( I am afraid he had a brain tumour). I suggest you see a vet for a health check, and then go down the behaviourist route once you have excluded any physical cause for his personality change. Neutering may be the answer, but then again it may not.
By Brainless (Moderator) [gb] Date 03.04.08 22:59 GMT
Yes forgot to say what is his coat and energy like as one of the main causes of sudden behaviour change (usually aggression) can be under active thyroid.
Barbara and the Grey Curly Tails.
By JenP (***) [gb] Date 03.04.08 23:11 GMT

> As you probably know to neuter a less confident dog can actually cause aggression, so unless you feel he strikes out because he is afraid, I think neutering is the way to go with him.


I've often read this on here, and can understand how this may happen, but equally, it can also take the pressure off a less than confident dog.  On the whole, other entire males tend to leave them alone, when previously they would be intimidating.  I never thought I would say this, but having seen so many cases, I do think in the case of pet dogs I see no sense in keeping them entire.
By Brainless (Moderator) [gb] Date 04.04.08 10:19 GMT
Sadly taking a non confident dogs testosterone away does maybe stop other entire males from viewing them as a challenge, but others will pick on a dog that comes across as a victim, also it often makes them treat the poor dog as an entire in season bitch, leading to escalation of defencive aggression. If this dog is being defensively aggressive it could get worse.

An English springer I know castrated young (which I think is more important) cannot be let off lead at all, as so many Male dogs mount him and pester him that he runs away in terror.  His owner simply followed her Vets advice and booked him in for castration at 6 months at the time he had his puppy jabs, as the responsible thing to do.

The only place her feels safe at all around other dogs is at training class, where after a time he learnt that the dogs would leave him alone, but several have shown sexual interest in him, and this is not an isolated case.
Barbara and the Grey Curly Tails.
By DenaliStar Date 08.04.08 13:54 GMT
I am a single female in an apartment, and I did notice this odd behavior around the time we moved into the apartment, but that coincides with the time he was coming of age as well, so I am not sure that the two are related or not.  To others response, I am in contact with a animal behavior specialist/trainer and will begin meeting with her in the next couple weeks, first I am gathering information for her as we speak. 

In response to the possibility of health issues.  We visited the vet for all his shots and yearly physical which went very well.  Coat is still beautiful and his energy remains high.  I will take the advice to contact the breeder and request information on the behavior I notice with Denali, as well as inquire about other aggression in the blood line. However he mentioned in the past this was not an issue as far as he could see.

In the meantime, I will post any successes with the behaviourist.  In my eyes, Denali is a very confident dog, but I will see what the professional has to say when she studies his body language.

Thank you so very much for the information and sharing thus far!
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