Who said that dogs should be put into rescue?

At no point in my post did I mention bakers (and FWIW neither did maisies mum in her 1st post).  I have even on occasion bought bakers for my dog as a treat in the same way that mcdonalds might be a treat for myself - I am certainly not a nutrition facist but like to think I am doing my best by my dog.  I am happy with what I feed my dog and price does not come into it for me.

This post appears to have descended into having a go at one particular poster which seems a bit unfair.

To the original poster, I wouldn't use bakers as a main food for the same reasons I would not advocate a human surviving on mcdonalds (mcdonalds don't even recommend having their food as a persons sole source of nourishment!)

With regard to Cheryls comment about all dogs not being a luxury, that is true but if you are speaking about guide dogs/hearing dogs etc - everything works better and more efficiently when the fuel is correct

>Who said that dogs should be put into rescue?

You suggested that people who fall on hard times:

>"If they are in such dire circumstances, it would probably be better not to have the extra expense of a pet then."

(and it can happen to anyone, at any time) shouldn't keep their pets. What are they meant to do with them?

Don't remember saying anything about people "who fall on hard times", or recommending what they should do with their pets.  What I am saying is if you can't or won't look after your animals properly, then you shouldn't have them in the first place. 

All complete dog foods are formulated to meet the nutritional requirements, some the bare minimum others go further. The so often used analogy to McD is not accruate as it is not formulated as a complete food.
To answer the original question Bakers Complete will meet the nutritional needs of the dog but some individuals will have lower tolerance to the colouring and additives that are added to preserve  the food and make it look attractive to us as owners. So therefore for some dogs it will be bad  and others will thrive on it.

>What I am saying is if you can't or won't look after your animals properly, then you shouldn't have them in the first place.

Herein is where the problem lies I think - feeding even the cheapest complete food you can get does not equate to someone who "can't or won't" look after their dog properly - as long as they are in good health and happy then there isn't a problem.

When I was a kid....I dont think people bought a lot of dog food at all, it was mainly table scraps etc with the odd tin here and there,
Karen

Karen I've been following this thread as my Mum bless her had a dog and it's favourite food apart from it's cooked dinner (same as what she had every night) was tinned peaches, she also loved polo mints! I cringe now when I think of this but this dog was so well loved and well balanced and lived to a very nice age before dying of nothing diet related.  My Mum's never homed another dog as she is getting on now and wouldn't want to leave one alone (her words) as believe me it would be nightmare to rehome as it would be so spoilt, however, but does have a couple of cats which I can confirm do eat cat food without any of her diet apart from the odd scraps of meat.  I have two dogs and feed a mixture of Bakers and Pedigree Chum (dry complete) depends what is on offer.  I have to be thrifty with my money but wouldn't do anything I thought was harming my dogs and would most certainly never get rid of them...I'd sell the husband and kids first!  (that is a joke...I think??)

i have only one dog she is well and truly loved and spoilt, she is fed what i think is a decent food, and she is issured gets her yearly boosters and monthly advocate drops and 6 monthly worming tablets we buy her treats and toys, all these things i think are important when thinking about getting a dog or any other pet, there must be lots of people out there who have pets without seriously taking the responsiblity of them and of course the cost.

Lesley....you just reminded me of my mother in law........she would only buy frozen fillets of fish for cat!
He was a huge ginger tom who was thoroughly spoilt...MIL was a very poor and poorly pensioner, frequently going into hospital...cat had to eat tinned food as sons retrained him each time.
She would get home and say poor thing only eats fish for me!! so it went on for a few years..
Karen

Its already been stated that Bakers isn't all that cheap,considering how awful the ingredients are,there are obviously several foods such as Arden Grange which are similarly priced and a million times better and some that are cheaper such as Autarky and still better.More expensive does not neccessarily mean better.On Its Me or The Dog there was a couple who were so worried about their 2 large dogs(I think they were Rhodesian ridgeback crosses) being malnourished they were cooking whole joints of meat (costing £7 a go)for them plus veg and pasta every night then living off beans on toast for themselves.I still don't think that Orijen is expensive considering the smaller amounts that can be fed.A 15kg bag would feed my BSD for about 6 weeks(ok he is elderly and much less active than most BSD's) and would last my large sheltie about 4 months.There are much more expensive foods than Orijen on the Zooplus website that probably aren't any better.
I compete with my dogs in agility and want them as fit as possible and looked into the various foods available.The thing that really clinched it for me was finding an article about gundogs fed on higher protein foods being much less likely to be injured than those on lower protein diets,also that their performance in the field was much improved.I have to say when dogs change over to Orijen they seem to be more muscular.
Some dogs are so healthy they will look good on most foods,my BSD is one of them,except when several years ago I very stupidly decided to try him on a vegetarian diet based on wheat gluten,just because I'm a veggie myself!Well the weight just fell off him,he was doing huge amounts of poo and after about a week he was constantly sick.I've always fed him fairly decent foods and not had any problems but he does seem less stiff and more mobile on the Orijen.

Do you think we have all the Orijen Staff on here on comission :o :o :o :o :o :o :o
LMAO
Lea

The Orijen bags are only 13.5kg Timberwolf is the most expensive I think at £56 for 15kg (or £53 on "offer"!). I've read on quite a few other forums, and it's also mentioned on zooplus I think, that you have to feed surprisingly large amounts of the Timberwolf considering the quality of the food is meant to be so high.

Of course Orijen bags are 13.5kg,Zarah,my mistake.

LOL I do love Champdoggers! You're such a feisty lot!!

Anyway, I just wanted to throw in my tuppence worth:
I normally feed my dog on Butchers Tripe Mix, but when she's been off-colour I've given her Chappie - it's very cheap and plain, and doesn't seem to have any of those nasty additives that Bakers is so full of.

BTW Has anyone hear tried their dogs on the new Pedigree food which is being advertised on tv at the mo? Something about As Nature made it?

Cheers,
Sky

Well get this .. i feed mine on autarky , (found it in Northern Ireland and it was a tenner for the big bag (bargain)and cos it said it had herbs and what not in i tried it  ) Dogs loved it and still do but are also on a bit of raw .Now i have to buy it at 18 quid (north west , england ) or little bags from tesco if the local pet shop has not got it in ....i still do it and would not change no matter how much someone told me it was a cr@p food as my dogs look great to me and people comment on their coats and are not at the vets , only for general stuff ..( huskies too that are exercised on a rig )
The little cav is different though ...

That was rather a heated debate LOVE IT!! just to add my 2p worth...
I have had animals and yes sometimes have been very skint so went on to big 15kg bags for £10 rather than buying 7 giant tins of chappie with supermarket mixer as in the long run I think buying  big bag is more economical I lived and learned. I always brought cheap food as I couldn't begin to think of a £30 bag for my dog then, but now I can afford it [inheritance] I do buy expensive the only reason I do is because my old dog has allergies and had suffered with open sores+ bad coat, must say my vet never did ask me what his diet was and the amount of antibiotics my poor dog had I might as well of brought good food! But that's me learning again. I know though that once my dog with the problems has gone to heaven and I'm left with my little girl I will be able to go cheap again . 

I can tell you all that i am living on the poverty line at the moment.I have recently become an out of work single mum with bills up the wazoo,and will have to move in with MY own mum very soon   Life sucks at the moment,but i will never sacrifice my dogs feeding regime or my children's! For myself,i can do without for the time being.But the little people and animals that totally rely on me for their wellbeing,who i brought into my home and into this world will not miss out.
Yes i feed Orijen,yes i also feed raw and homecooked and my kids get a good meal every night,even fitting in a couple of take aways each week.
My greatest fear is if i skimp on my dogs feeding now and feed yuck supermarket foods it will return and bite me on the arse later on,eg dog dying early or huge vet bills!
You CAN be poor and still feed your dogs great food,i am living proof of this!

And shoot me down if you want,but if people want to have a gaggle of large breed dogs or a giant breed eating machine than they better be able to afford to feed more than the cheapest food around.. Because feeding is one of the easiest AND cheapest ways to keep our pets healthy.

> And shoot me down if you want,but if people want to have a gaggle of large breed dogs or a giant breed eating machine than they better be able to afford to feed more than the cheapest food around..

The dearest food doesn't mean it is the best food for a dog, and Orijen is not a good choice for a giant breed.

Orijen is 42% protein*, that is WAY to much for a giant breed dog,(IMO & my opinion is just as worthy as yours), so I'd rather be a cheap-skate and feed my dogs a diet that suits tham rather than one that suits you. I can afford to feed my dogs Orijen, I just choose not too, it will make them fat & it will encourage rapid growth in the pup resulting in growth problems.

*The resting metobilc rate of dogs is greatly corrolated to heatloss & the surface area to body mass dictates heatloss. The bigger the dog, the smaller the suface area is to body mass, so the less heatloss and less energy requirments. As protein that isn't used for growth etc is converted to energy (unused energy converted to fat), it is no big wonder why a high protein diet is not acceptable for giant breed dogs.

It seems to me that as you feed Orijen & suppliment it with other foods, you can't truly believe that Orijen is a great food - or you wouldn't need to suppliment it.

> You CAN be poor and still feed your dogs great food,i am living proof of this!

My 14 year old dog is living proof that an expensive diet doesn't mean it's a suitable diet (anything other than cheap canned food causes him problems).

OMG - I have been feeding my boy Bakers Complete Small Dog and he is HYPER!  I had put this down to his age (18 months) but it could be the food.  I am usually an avid food label reader but have not extended this to dog food labels apart from checking protein content (I am a bad Mother!)   I really didn't realise it was so full of rubbish!

As per some of my other posts, I have been thinking about moving the dogs to another food and this has just convinced me.  I just need to hurry up deciding and researching into which to change to - too much choice!  I think I will go with Arden Grange and see how this goes, although I have also been considering Orijen given all the good press it gets on here!!  I feel somewhat embarassed as this is something I should have looked into a lot sooner considering I have a degree in Nutrition and Food Science!

It seems to me that some people think that the more expensive the food is the better quality it is and we should all be feeding it to our dogs otherwise we are not giving the best. That's like saying that if you buy a steak in Harrods for some rediculous amount of money it is better than the steak you buy from the local butchers at quarter of the price!! Surely there are excellent food that are much cheaper?

> Surely there are excellent food that are much cheaper?

I agree with you. The best food for each individual dog has nothing to do with the price tag, suitability of any food depends on the dogs individual energy/nutritional requirements and how it copes regarding digestion/sensitivity to ingredients.

i hate to say it but im one who checks ingredients, and bakers would never be on my list of foods to give my lot!
ive seen some majorly hyper dogs at our training class and funnily enough they are normally fed on bakers! once they change there is a drastic turnaround in their whole behaviour!

mine are fed on arden grange ( my 2 oldies) my youngsters are finishing off my bulk buy of csj, i may continue with them on it, or i may try them on a/g aswell, i have one also on naturediet as she has a cholesterol problem and im having to try different feeding with her.

i agree that different foods suit different dogs, i have 7 dogs altogether and i work it out to be about £30 a month for all their food

I don't hate to say that I don't feed Bakers to my dog.  However, I would not rule it out of hand for other people because some people find that their dogs are fine on it (mine was not).  Like people, dogs vary and what will negatively affect some or even most will not necessarily negatively affect all. I love shellfish but some types tend to make my mum break out in a rash.

Personally, I think buying pet food in a supermarket is not cost effective anyway but for some people such as pensioners, this might be their only source of shopping.  Even though the food might not be cost effective in the long term, people on small incomes (those who literally survive hand to mouth) might find this the easiest way for them to budget and therefore, able to keep out of debt.  Counter intuitive for those of us able to afford to buy in larger quantities but there you go. Think of the people let down by the Christmas hamper saving fiasco a couple of Christmases ago and they're the sort I mean.

Orijen is 42% protein*, that is WAY to much for a giant breed dog

Totally agree Mastifflover, far too high for my bernese too. We tried her on a food with higher protein when she was younger and she was absolutely hyper on it.

What you feed your dog is a personal choice dictated by a number of factors. Yes you can put your point forward about what works for you and your dogs but you can't assume that will work for everyone else's too. If you want to feed Orijen or Timberwolf then that is your choice and I'm sure your dogs are thriving - but that doesn't make the rest of us bad owners because we have chosen not to feed these brands. Nor are we bad owners because we don't go the whole RAW route. What is best for a dog is surely having an owner who is happy with the way they are providing for their animals - not an owner who is stressed because they are trying to please someone else's notion of what is right for their dog. Cheap doesn't necessarily mean bad any more than expensive means good - be aware of what you are feeding, if your dog is healthy and happy you don't have to justify it to anyone.

>Mastifflover-The dearest food doesn't mean it is the best food for a dog,

You keep bringing up,and seem to be stuck on the most "expensive" and "dearest" foods.Nowhere in any of my posts have i said that a dog owner MUST feed the most expensive food on the market.I have said that often times you get what you pay for.Most cheap foods also use cheap ingredients,although the big advertisers also use cheap ingredients but charge big bucks for their foods!

>and Orijen is not a good choice for a giant breed.

Orijen has a Large breed puppy/adult food.

>Orijen is 42% protein*, that is WAY to much for a giant breed dog,

I strongly disagree with this,not due to MY opinion,but of the latest research i have read,which i have posted many a time on these boards.

>I can afford to feed my dogs Orijen,

Well good for you

> I just choose not too, it will make them fat & it will encourage rapid growth in the pup resulting in growth problems.

I dont know where you are getting your info,or how old it is,but i strongly urge you to look into this further

>It seems to me that as you feed Orijen & suppliment(sic) it with other foods, you can't truly believe that Orijen is a great food - or you wouldn't need to suppliment(sic) it.

No,i dont believe Orijen or any other commercial food should be the sole diet for any dog,The BEST commercial food in the world wont give them what fresh real foods can provide. Orijen is still a packaged,processed food at the end of the day.
FTR Orijen is not the only commercial food i feed,i rotate regularly with other brands,all of which i supplement with fresh foods.Commercial foods are but a small part of their diet,but because i couldn't be bothered fiddling around with amounts and vits/mins etc i feed a bit of dry food.

This post is supposed to be about Bakers granted a small sidetrack into other foods will still be relevent however I think we have  gone way off on this now. People who wish to debate Orijen or any other food without it addressing the original question should do so in another post.

> You keep bringing up,and seem to be stuck on the most "expensive" and "dearest" foods

This was in response to the following statement of yours:

> And shoot me down if you want,but if people want to have a gaggle of large breed dogs or a giant breed eating machine than they better be able to afford to feed more than the cheapest food around..

I took the comment 'afford' to mean 'be able to pay for a large price tag', and the fact that you said 'better be able to afford to feed more than the cheapest food' to mean that cheap food is rubbish.

> I dont know where you are getting your info,or how old it is,but i strongly urge you to look into this further

I may be stupid & naive, but I don't put too much belief in the 'latest research' and as I am new to Mastiffs I tend to take advice from people who have dealt with them for decades. And unfortunately, due to my disregarding the advice of experienced Mastiff owners/breeders to start with, my pup has dealt with the effects of a high protein diet* (*that's not just my opinion, that is substantiated by the vet).

>my pup has dealt with the effects of a high protein diet*

High Protein or High Calcium? They usually go hand in hand.Large breed pups should not be fed foods with high CALCIUM levels.A canine nutritionist will be able to clarify this further with you if you so wish.

High protein, causing massive overgrowth in the ligaments thus resulting in being to 'floppy' to walk properly.

>Nowhere in any of my posts have i said that a dog owner MUST feed the most expensive food on the market.

Your posts seem to suggest that cheap=bad.

>Commercial food manufacture's have taken advantage of this by producing cheap,cereal based diets that just manage to sustain them,because they will survive on just about anything.
>You're forking out all of this money on a food made up of predominately cheap rice and hardly any meat!Not an ideal diet for a carnivore
>Just because dogs don't get sick eating rancid crap does not mean that we should feed them cheap bottom of the barrel food!
>Cheap and convenient for the owners,yes,but is it the best way to feed our companions?