We just had a horrible experience at the first adult open show my son entered. He felt ver awkward because he is not used to this and it is all alien to him and I am not much more experienced myself and he was the only lad working his dog. And the day quickly went from bad to absolute HELL.

Why are the dog events so disproportionately dominated by women? Has anyone ever thought of actually encouraging young men into competing?

A smile and a welcome would to new competitors, and appreciation of the wonderful work they have done with their dog to get them to the point where they may feel ready to start to compete in pre-beginners, and especially when they are such a painful minority and feel incredibly uncomfortable and freaked out  by the alien environment and the shock that it is an environment with no one they can identify with or relate to would be nice. 

Kids who start in Pre beginners do not know the terminology, do not know how the system works, do not know anything about obeduence except how to train their dogs.  Please show them a smile, show them repect and they will give it back. Anyone who claims to be good at training dogs should be good with teens too! Would you punish a dog for not knowing what to do? We are not all born into dog families and don't have the decades of experience some Judges take for granted!

All I can say is what a shame! I hope it will be easier for young guys who love training their dogs one day to feel they have a place in the dog world. 

I've no idea about obedience circles only the conformation shows which, originally, would have been predominantly men - stockmen - handling the dogs for large kennels.  There are certainly quite a lot of males of all age groups involved in conformation although some breeds will see greater numbers than others I guess.

I don't think it should matter which discipline in the dog world we are involved in (or any other hobby/walk of life for that matter!) - encouragement to those beginning or toying with the idea of becoming involved should ALWAYS be given freely and warmly IMO.  Kids, teens are the future of our country never mind our hobbies

It's a great shame your son felt uncomfortable - sometimes it's par for the course with a teenager and even if approached in an intended friendly manner they would still feel unsure - that not being the case here let's hope he just attended at a bad time and it's a one off.  Hopefully, if he still feels its worth giving it another go, he'll meet up with a friendlier bunch next time and maybe even find himself with a good mentor.

Best wishes to him, Teri

> We just had a horrible experience at the first adult open show my son entered. He felt ver awkward because he is not used to this and it is all alien to him and I am not much more experienced myself and he was the only lad working his dog. And the day quickly went from bad to absolute HELL.

>Why are the dog events so disproportionately dominated by women? Has anyone ever thought of actually encouraging young men into competing?

There are quite a few young lads doing obedience especially in YKC classes

>A smile and a welcome would to new competitors, and appreciation of the wonderful work they have done with their dog to get them to the point where they may feel ready to start to compete in pre-beginners, and especially when they are such a painful minority and feel incredibly uncomfortable and freaked out  by the alien environment and the shock that it is an environment with no one they can identify with or relate to would be nice. 

I am shocked, when judging Pre Beginners most judges will be only too helpful & their stewards as well. I'm judging a Pre B's on Monday next week & again in July. My steward on Monday is working Pre B's himself & it a really good steward, even though he only started stewarding a couple of weeks ago. I will pull the legs of male handlers who I know(not in a nasty way)but try my best not to worry people just starting out & TBH I do stop marking dogs when they have lost enough marks to put them out of the places-there is no need to overly hard on people feeling their way in to the sport. If your son is under 18 he can entry the YKC Obedience classes from the lowest class he doesn't have to be a member to enter, but only members get invited to Crufts. If you go to the ObedienceUK site. There's a link on the left side of the site to a beginners guide to obedience, which will be useful to anyone starting out in Obedience. You can PM me for details of an e mail yahoo group especially for newbies to obedience where he can get help and advice from some lovely handlers, including this year's Res Dog Championships handler(who has a young daughter herself, who is just starting out in obedience)

> It's a great shame your son felt uncomfortable - sometimes it's par for the course with a teenager and even if approached in an intended friendly manner they would still feel unsure - that not being the case here let's hope he just attended at a bad time and it's a one off Hopefully, if he still feels its worth giving it another go, he'll meet up with a friendlier bunch next time and maybe even find himself with a good mentor.

It's worth him looking to go to a YKC camp if he can as he will meet loads of young handlers their doing all the canine activities as well as some very positive trainers

Thanks for the link. My son competes with the YKC last year did 2 YKD shows before and he did well at Crufts.But this was notnhing like that it was horrible. I entered some pre beginners last year and they were lovely, although I met some stern judges in beginners so this year I thought we would just keep it fun and relaxed and enter pre-beginners and hope to stay in that class for as long as we can to gain confidence and expereience. 

aaah...

"Another important point here; some judges allow you to train your dog in the ring if things don't go too well, others do not. Remember that in the classes we are concerned with here you can talk to your dog as much as you like. If you have to use your lead, you will lose marks, and if you touch your dog you will be heavily marked. Some judges stop judging once you touch your dog, but the Ring Steward should continue calling the round for you. Other judges will stop judging and help you as much as they can. If you come across one who doesn't like handlers training their dogs in the ring, just politely thank them for their time and leave the ring. There is always next time"

I think this is what cause d the fiasco. The recall present sit was crooked so my son automatically without any reason and without thinking stepped back and called the dog into a straigght present. He was challenged about it and the Judge mistook his answer as demanding training round. My son did not know there were such things his score was then scribbled out and he was eliminated from competition. He found her rude and hostile and mean and she found him rude.They did not get along very well. It was a nasty experience. I have never seen my son upse or cross before or ever heard him be the slightest bit rude to anyone. So it was a sock to me and I've found it hard to get my head round what went wrong and why at that level it was all made into such a serious ordeal.  I won't be choosing to be working under that judge again myself cos although beneath it she was sweet nd I did actually quite like her she scared the heck out of me when I was in the ring. 

There are a lot of men at obedience shows working dogs, stewarding, judging and generally wandering about. Okay, most obedience people are getting on a bit but they're there.

A smile and a welcome would to new competitors, and appreciation of the wonderful work they have done with their dog to get them to the point where they may feel ready to start to compete in pre-beginners, and especially when they are such a painful minority and feel incredibly uncomfortable and freaked out  by the alien environment and the shock that it is an environment with no one they can identify with or relate to would be nice.

You've just described the majority of pre-beginner handlers who feel everyone else is working higher classes, they don't know anyone and are terrified of the judge and steward.

You and your son might find it useful to read up on the rules and how obedience works. You can get rule books from the KC website and the ObedienceUK website had a getting started guide which is quite good. There are also email groups and you can ask loads of questions on the newbies list and get answers.

Moonmaiden got there first! that'll teach me to read too quickly!

I judged Wakefield's YKC classes last year & although my steward there can scare the pants of adult handlers(especially if they manhandle their dogs)she was brilliant with the kids(she does have several small G children)& even the ones for whom it went pear shaped(like the BC that tried to retrieve my large heavy back marker in the Sendaway), they all went away knowing they had done their best.

I simply mark what I see & if someone steps back in recall or retrieve I will mark it, if someone touches their dog I will mark it like every other error by dog or handler. You cannot simply stop judging(not stop marking as I previously mentioned)unless the handler does something seriously against the rules(like the guy who picked up & shook his dog)then there is nothing in the rules that allows a judge to just stop judging because the handler has made an error like handling/touching the dogor stepping back in the presents

My son competed under you at Wakefield and he wasn't on good form at all because he just grew 2 foot overnight. Growing so fast he lost the ability to walk properly and stand up straight and found his dog had done an incredable shrinking act! This is why the YKC is good because the kids are understood. Firm but kind.   It was very nice and there were lots of kids from pet dog families competing which was nice.

It was all just very unfortnate and at a time encouragement was really needed. don't want to blame the judge because she is very nice and I loved her, genuinely for me she was perfect. But I can understand she could seem too stern for my son  - I just think she assumed he knew much more than he did because his dog is so good. And she had no idea how alien he was finding the whole show environment. The Judge misunderstood my son and my son misunderstood her. I've now told my son there is only 1 rule: the Judge is GOD, and what they say goes because they all have different ways, priorities and rules and methods of scoring and they do not have to smile, greet you or put you at ease.. that is an added bonus.

You've just described the majority of pre-beginner handlers who feel everyone else is working higher classes, they don't know anyone and are terrified of the judge and steward.
Karen I know what you mean because I went to my first shows last year. Buy actually there is no comparison. I am new too and went to 3 or 4 shows last year. People chat to me say hi and I already know a lot of people. I might be new to dogs but I am not new to chatting to anyone I meet on the street at the bus stop, no matter who they are! At my first show al I needed to do was say Hi to the person parked next to me and they took me under their wing and showed me the ropes and looked after me all day and introduced me to lots of people. By the end of the day I had a brand new full  social network .

It is harder for kids because they are not part of the adult social network, because they don't drive and can't choose where they can go like adults can they frequenly do not belong to a dog club so are not familiure with working the dog under instruction because they train their dog alone. Many kids only know what is taught in a local pet class..but many local classes do not teach what is required for competitive obedience. So they have more unknowns to contend with unless they are still young enough to be ooozing with confidence for nothing much to matter. They are most likely not going to be taken to  many shows each year and so are highly unlikely to progrees or be intersted in the higher levels of obedience, even if they are dedicated to trainng their dog.

> I've now told my son there is only 1 rule: the Judge is GOD, and what they say goes because they all have different ways, priorities and rules and methods of scoring and they do not have to smile, greet you or put you at ease.. that is an added bonus.
>

Hmm not sure I agree totally with you, the KC rules are quite specific about what you can & can't do as a judge, the only 2 things the KC doesn't tell you to do is the round itself(ie the pattern of heelwork)& how you actually mark mistakes/faults. The Good Pactices guide does actually tell you to be"pleasant"etc

hope you have entered at our show as the YKC entry isn't big & we have a lovely Pre B judge & steward(daughter & mum)

It's the same in conformation!
Females well outweight the males.

My brothers way of looking at it, for the past few years, He can be the only boy in a junior handling class and all he could say was "there's more chance of me finding someone who shows then you" Cheeky bro!  Needless to say he does have a fair few girls at each show who he can talk to, make friends with and has a reputation for his "entourage" :D

Of course he loves all the attention!  I also wonder if the ratio was the other way round, if he would have stuck with his showing or maybe continued with his badminton....

Anyone who claims to be good at training dogs should be good with teens too!

As we know, love and training with animals does not go hand in hand with being the same with people. I've found many to look admiringly at a dog but be very abrupt with the handler. I agree as an adult we can handle that when it happens but a youngster may find it hard.

He wasn't put off continuing was he?  In a way, he got thrown in at the deep end, it can only get better.

At least it wasn't a surgeon/doctor, they are top of my list for abruptness.

ah my lad loves football! Football first, girls are fine..if they are into football.

We are not a dog world family, although I am reasonably obsessed. It is a shame we didn't get involved when my kids were younger but we didn't have dogs anyway and my lad was actually very scared of dogs until he was about 9 and wouldn't go anywhere near them. lol.

Carrington he was already at the edge of stopping obedience, which is typical at 15, but loves it too so was struggling to decide which way to go and was on the brink of giving up anyway, but can't quite give up becauase he is actually very very proud of his dog.  So I think he will contunue going to the YKC classes because they are good fun. But I think they stop at 16 anyway.

Moonmaiden thanks very much for your input. It makes us feel much better.

I guess the secret is to go to lots of shows and gain a lot of experience but my family have a mix of intersts so right now we don't have the time to devote ourselves to gaining all that much experience. So much to do! So little time!

> But I think they stop at 16 anyway

They stop at 25 !!!!!!!

Oh wow 25! oh that's really good! 

Yes, many years he has left in YKC

Gives time t o become thicker skinned?

People frequenty say you need to develp a thick skin to compete in the dog world...which I think is a shame.  I admit we are a family of sensitive big softies and I don't think thats too bad a quality really even if we could change.  But we don't intend to get too involved in competitions...for us it is  just a little very light competition to give us the incentive to do more with our dogs.

You only really need to be thick skinned in order to deal with loosing when you know you didn't deserve it and to cope with the few arrogant, non thinking people you get in every competitive sport.

Did you go to Ripon ? I judged one of the Pre B's there along with my sidekick-Man in The Hat

Yes. But I couldn't get my son to have a go because he was obsessed with some football match... suddenly it is football football football...he has turned to the dark side. lost forever! On the plus side I now inherit his dog!   But I will try to persuade him to have a go at Beverly,   ( last year that was a lovely show with all the lovely food and homemade cakes. )

I think I was in the ring with you...it was you who had the lovely ring away from the buildings, and with the friendly advise printed out about training rounds? My dog was rather head in the clouds but I was pleased because he enjoyed himself which is all I want to see in my dogs! I can't go to a training club or go to enough shows to get the experience to think 'competition' but just want it to be a fun mental activity for my dogs. But it is hard work to make it feel relaxed and fun!  It is easy to get the dogs enthusiastic to work when I am alone in the park or back garden but to transfer that to a ring is hard!  But I enjoyed your ring, you put on no competitive pressure. Very plesant. Thanks.

I thought I recognised your dog(an Aussie)but couldn't remember where from LOL

Yes it was me with the crazy steward in the Hat !!