I hope I can get a vet appt today. This morning she wasnt eating much.It could be also she became fussy as I gave her boiled chicken with steamed rice last night.I tried to give her nutrical but she doesnt want also and she made cream coloured water stool with blood in it.Nothing much inside,it could be cos she has finished pooing in the night

I will update again if I managed to get a vet appt.I m worried..but at least she is still playful and drinking.

tazmanica your doing really well with them,it's great how much you've taken on board from everyone. often folk will come on and not listen at all, just wanted to say it's nice that you have heard and acted on what the guys are saying. you'll do fine with them if you keep it up and give them a much better life than they started with.

hope the blood clears up. how bad is the bleeding?

I am still waiting for the vet clinic to open at 10am so I can call them to see if i can bring summer in

The bleeding is not scary but still stool is not supposed to have blood in there,especially almost one whole week.

I gave her kaolin.The petshop medication for diahhrea but it doesnt help.I dont think she has diahhrea cos she isnt pooing nonstop.Maybe 4x a day?or 6x? I think its very common for pups. But the stool is not formed but not watery.Just loose and have blood in it.

That was why I m worried.Beside this,she is super active and mischievous.

I have a good news to share... this morning I woke up.They did it on the paper!!! and so excited when they see the leash. After I drove my son to school and came back an hour later.The paper are dry and they did it OUTDOOR!

Great news, sounds like they're starting to get it! Hope you really went to town going mad with joy and praise for them! Most puppies want you to be happy with them and praise them, so as soon as they figure out what they should do to get praise, they will do it! Hope Summer's stools are improving too, you're doing a great job with them both!

brilliant, their catching on quickly then!

someone suggested possible colitis earlier and i;m not sure how it goes with dogs but i have a similar condition and it does sound similar (sorry everyone, sure thats delightful information!), i;d definately check with the vet. on the other hand there are about a million different things it could be so i wouldn;t worry to much till you've heard what the vet says.

I still havent get hold of the vet.But Summer poo a while ago,although it was very loose but at least no blood stain in it for twice.

I brought summer to the vet. She even poo inside her traveller crate on the way there.
the vet took a look at the fecal and find nothing in it.He gave me worming powder and anti diahhrea drops for 3 days.
I will update again.Thanks for all your concern.I highly appreciated.
At least I am getting new skills learned but whenever I posted on US forum,I get all kind of scolding that why I get puppies from petshop instead of helping me with the problems that I am facing.

Glad things are improving.

Just ignore people who only want to bash you rather than offer useful advice - im sure you wont buy a pup from a pet shop again and im more than sure that you wont get two pups together again (once in a lifetime, never again sort of thing!).

Unfortunately, some people do like to hide behind their computers and kick people needlessly.

IM all for trying to explain why something is wrong and the problems that may occur - thats how we learn, but you cant turn back time and you love your pups so you cant take them back!

yeah, the first vet wanted me to return the westie as he suspected she has pancreatic insufficiency as she poo alot,eat her poo,lose weight.But test showed negative. But we decided not to cos we must responsible to nurse her back to health.

Summer still have 'melted ice cream' poo till now but at least I dont see any blood 'yet'. This morning their space is clean again.I thank God sincerely that they know I would be so tired if they would to poo and pee everywhere.

Thanks for everyone in this genuine wonderful forum.

Tazmanica74 - I have been away for a few days so just read the updates and wanted to say you are doing a fantastic job - there is so much information to take in and so many things to do - it is tough at times - but well done for sticking with it...

Maxine

I second that, if only all owners were as dedicated as Tazmanica!

it's a very sensitive subject for actual breeders, as you saw at the start of the thread a few of us got a bit hairy about it to. to be perfectly honest to us it seems like a really sill mistake to make but since thousands of people do it all the time it must be pretty easy to get drawn in. we forget that the majority of us have been born into dog having families or had good mentors around us to teach us to avoid these things. you'll know for next time and can try and educate others for the future plus you'll know for next time...

your clearly interested in doing things right for the pups now that they are there, which is a lot more than they would get from a lot of owners so we're all delighted to try and help.

glad their doing something for her runs, i hope they clear up a bit

their run is much better today although its still not firm but at least its not a big mess all the time.
Tomorrow would be the last packet of the worming medication.So I have to bring her back to the vet if she still has the run?or give her a break for a bit and see how things go?

what do the instructions say? i've not had this prob before but sure someone else will be able to say. i'd probably leave them a day or so though and see how it goes. if it's firmer already and you're still a dose to go hopefully it will be clearing up.

vet says one sachet a day and he gave me 3 sachets.Tomorrow morning would be the last sachet so I pray very hard she would show something.
This evening her poo is again melted ice cream style...yucky..BUT NO BLOOD!!hooray!!

there is blood again in this morning's stool but the stool was much firmer and lesser.

this might be a bit of a strange one and i'm not sure if dogs can get them but might she have a pile if shes been going a lot?

Its indeed a strange one but what is impossible in this world?

Yesterday I saw a puddle of messed food.Light coloured and I thought it was her poo but today when I saw the same kind of pile again.I actually think she vomitted...And her poo is still not totally firmed.

I might give her till Next monday and if she doesnt improve,I would have to bring her to vet again...

maybe not leave it so long as that...she's still young and could go down hill quickly if there is a prob.

this is one of the reasons that puppy farms are terrible- you can bet if she'd come from a good breeder this would either not have happened or with their help she'd be better by now. this is not a dig at you taz, i just really hope people who are considering getting a pup from somewhere as irreputable read this thread and think about what they are doing. i do not understand these 'breeders', heartless, evil people

Yeah. In my country,whenever someone wants to get a pet,they go to petshop.That was what we know of petshop but we often neglected where the petshop got their puppies from...
so far so good this morning but winter isnt eating.I gave rice and dry food plus a small teaspoon of canned food (chicken and rice for puppy) inside.Summer finished all but winter smelled it and walked away.She has been always a fussy eater so I removed the food in 10mins.And would resume the same lunch again to forbid her to be fussy.

Winter's poo is drier.Not solid firm but not loose or watery.Summer's stool is still jello.

glad winters stools are good. are summers getting firmer?

is this the first go with the canned food? maybe she just doesn't like it

today both's stool are watery but I didnt see much than blood strain in Summer's poo.Just once I saw a thin pinkish so I shouldnt alarm myself.
Winter ate her lunch ok,although she didnt finished.

Sometimes I wonder what is really wrong with them...

What is their body condition like, it could easily be that you are offering too much food.  This can also cause them to have looser stools, or of course to be picky as they are not really hungry. 

Most guides on dog food packets tend to over estimate by quite a large amount the actual amount the pups need. 

This is as a safeguard for the company in case the odd untypical dog was underfed.

How much by weight are you feeding each pup a day,a nd what age are they now. 

I am sure someone like Blue who has West Highland Whites may be able to advise how much hers eat at that age, though all dogs are individuals, which is why you need to get into the habit of feeling the pups to see if they are fluctuation in condition, as of course they will be growing.

Brainless,I think your suggestion make sense too. So I hope Blue can advice me here.
Ok,they are both between 3-4 months old now.Winter was borned on 26 Jan 08 and Summer was 9 Feb 08
Winter was last weighted last Monday at 5.2lbs (2.4kg) but she lost some weight due to the loose stool.I feel she is heavier now.I would say 6lbs (2.73) now.
Summer was weighted at 5.5lbs (2.5kg)last monday and she was 6lbs (2.73kg) on this Monday when I took her to vet.
I dont know how much I m feeding them now since I m giving them boiled chicken and steamed rice since 5 days now.I am giving 3 table spoon of rice with 1 tablespoon of boiled chicken. 3 times a day. at 5.30am,12noon,5.30pm.

this morning there were stool on newspaper but 2 types of stool.the melted ice cream type and the firm hard type so its very clear  the firm type was from winter and loose one was from summer.

I personally always find it difficult to tell someone how much to feed as I think the key thing is to look at the dog and see if it looks fine. I know as a novice owner this is hard but just watch them , do they seem thin or have exposed ribs ?  if not then they are getting what they need.  The Scottie should be heavier than the westie if they actually typy to their breed.

4 tablespoons doesn't sound too much for their age especially as they are only being fed 3 times a day.  I think the gap between 5.30pm and . A rule of thumb but it is only an average is 1/2 lb per week of date up till 12 weeks for a westie.

I am getting confused with who is who.. is Summer the Scottie and Winter the westie??

It may take a day or two after the worming to settle down. I would also recommend a probiotic the vet should be able to give you this.

Was it the vet that advised putting them on the chicken and rice.  I would probably change the mix a little by upping the chicken content if you plan to continue feeding this for the next few days to a week.

I also know of quite a few dogs that have intolerance to chicken, so this may be something to consider if things dont improve in a few days.

yes I also heard some dogs are allergy to chicken.
Up the chicken content a bit means give lesser rice but more chicken?
I dont intend to do this menu for long cos I prefer dry dog food.I add a few dry food inside their menu also.

Sorry to confuse. Winter is the westie and summer is the scottie. My kids name it this way cos westie is white and scottie is black,as to winter is mostly white with snow and summer is hot and it will get us darker tan.

I also want to give them probiotic.This is to build up immune digestive right?Any harmful side effect?

Someone with a dog with diarrhoea on another of my forums has been recommended slippery elm powder. I've no idea how it works or how much to give, but it's another possible thought.

Hi Tazmanica74,

Seems the chicken and rice is not working.
Try feeding white fish and potatoes, give at least 70% fish and 30% potatoes, steam the fish, boil potato, mash the potato leave 2 cool, flake fish but make sure no bones are left in fish and just mix flake fish and potato together. For both of your dogs I would say one medium size fish and potato should would make two days worth of meals, just put in a tight sealed container in fridge for it to stay fresh.

Get a good veterinary Probiotic (your vet can prescribe it) two I have found good are "Lacto B" and "Protexin" these two are veterinary but you can purchase them with not a vets prescription.
Also use something like "Tree Barks powder" Tree barks consists of "slippery elm bark and white poplar bark I give 5ml daily mixed ( 5ml per 10kg of body weight) into food or you can use just "slippery elm bark"  tablets small dogs you give half a tablet up to 3 times a day. Slippery elm helps slow down the passage of food while soothing the stomach so giving the stomach time to digest the food properly.

Best not giving any treats if you feel you must say for training only give some fish but remember to subtract the amount from the daily amount of fish. It is very easy to over feed small puppies give small amount if the pup's devour the food quickly give a little more but if they turn their nose up at a meal or just eat small amounts you know you have over fed them.

I noticed you said you live in the USA I know a lot of American's I will ask around to see what good food's are on the market if you like

I know petshop sells probiotic.Does brand matters?
As for the tree bark powder or slippery elm bark powder...er...I really have no idea what that is...I will try to see if I can find them in the petshop.
We are having storm today so the dogs cant go outside. Summer's stool is still not improving.I wonder how come is her stool greenish brown?
Winter is still eating poo despite I m adding forbids powder,pepper or even wasabi.I notice she loves summer's stool and often caught her full face of stool...that is so yucky!!

Tazmanica74 their is no side effects to Probiotic's, a probiotic is friendly bacteria which grow's in the gut it helps prevent disease causing bacteria attaching to the gut. Normaly a health gut has this bacteria naturaly in the gut but when the gut gets agitated say down to ill health, upset tum, stress or even drug therapy the gut has problems replacing the friendly bacteria so giveing a good probiotic will make the tum return to being healthy.

I do not know if you have ever considered or used natural medicines before, if you have not there are many natural remedies that can help, if you prefer natural or wish to try natural then my advice would be seek out a qualified registered licensed homeopathic vet.

If your interested in homeopathic medicines/remedies Richard Allport is a very good homeopathic vet in the UK this is his website http://www.naturalmedicinecentre.co.uk/
It says on his website that he can offer free advice by email, he maybe know of a good homeopathic vet in the USA

Hope the information I have given may be of some help to you

Some probiotic are better than others, Veterinary formulated ones in my opinion seem to be much better and I find you get quicker results.

It could be summer has eaten something green could be something like grass or it could be the small intestine acting up (food traveling through small intestine to fast), what consistencey is the stool?

Some dogs enjoy eating poo this maybe just a puppy stage. Puppies watch their mama eating poo so sometimes they copy, sometimes eating poo can be a nutrient deficiency other dogs it can just be a bad habit. Personally I would not worry about this and just concentrate on fixing their tums as you may find it will stop then, if not then we can give you tips on how to try and stop this.

Personally I would start again and stop feeding your pets for 24 hours but always make sure they have water, giving them just slippery elm and a good probiotic.  Then next day give small amounts of food four times a day along with the slippery elm and probiotic. Over the next few days gradually building up the amount daily. 
If the dogs are running around not seeming ill and stools are forming then they are recovering but don't over load the stomach.

If normal faecal matter does not return I would return to the vets for a check up taking stool samples of each of the dogs asking them to test them just to be on the safe side.

I dont know what is bark tree powder.Checked on the internet also cant find much.
Next thursday the puppies have appt with vet for 2nd shot.Can they go for shot when their poo is not solid?
Actually,how do I rate the consistencey?Its definitely not hard.My kid always say it looks like ice cream beginning to melt haha

Yes they are so active.Doing well with training without treats but replaced with lots of praises.I really cant tell where is wrong with them,or at least with summer.
Winter was having this diahhrea loose stool and losing weight thing the next day she came home with us but now she is all well.I think summer should be well soon too,huh?

your doing everything right for them tazmanica, if there is a prob with summers digestion it will have been from her poor start in life. the poo should be of a similar consisatancy to a healthy human poo- a proper stool, not a puddly one, mid brown and they shouldn't be straining to pass it. melted ice cream soes not sound right to me.

have you tried crushed pineapple in winters food? it's ment to put of the poo munching, apparently it makes it taste yucky.

yes,I put 3 cubes of pineapple cutted into their food this morning but she still eat the poo from summer.
It has been raining bad for 3 days now and the weather forecast says it will last till Next tue.so they cant go out at all.But they are doing good on 'just the paper' request by me haha

well,they were not straining when they poo,but its not waterless poo.I read somewhere it says it could be drinking too much but I thought we should make sure water is available all the time?

I would like to ask. If chicken and rice doesnt work out.Can I try beef and rice instead?

I have to go get fish to try out too.But we are not at the coast area,so its usually only frozen fish.

can someone tell me where can I get slippery elm powder?I checked on amazon but I was wondering are those for human?
Do you know of an international website where I can do my purchase?

You should still be taking them outside rain or no rain, they aren't made of sugar they won't melt, LOL :D. 

Do not resort to having them going on paper indoors as you will be undoing your training.

Rain if anything will make them concentrate on doing their business and getting back inside quick.  You can always take an umbrella out.

Lay a towel down by the back door for them to stand on and towel them off with another to limit mess.

> read somewhere it says it could be drinking too much but I thought we should make sure water is available all the time?

You're right - clean water should be available 24/7; it's even more important if they're losing fluid with each poo.

>If chicken and rice doesnt work out.Can I try beef and rice instead?

No, beef is generally less digestible than chicken or white fish. It doesn't matter if the fish has been frozen - just thaw it out and boil it up, then add a little fish and the 'juice' to some thoroughly over-boiled rice - the grains should be really soggy and sticking together, not how we'd serve it for ourselves.

Don't worry about taking them out in the rain - it won't hurt them, and you can towel them dry when you get indoors again.

i think beefs a bad idea, a lot of dogs can be sensitive to it. frozen fish should be ok i think but someone else will confirm

the pineapple might take a wee while yet, they need to digest it properly.

i doubt it's drinking to much cause yes water should always be available and the body shifts excess fluid through urine anyway. if they have runny poos they need more water as they are losing hydration through the poo.

bit confused, why can;t they go outside? they'll be ok getting a bit wet, their terriers! hardy little dogs though they might not like it much

I would use fish rather than beef if the chicken doesn't work. And yes, be brave and get them outside in the rain - the more you suffer through the weather the quicker they will get housetrained!

What do you mean JG, I love my rice mushy personally lol!!

>I love my rice mushy personally lol!!

Eeeewwwwwww!

You are doing brilliant with your pups when you can train with no treats Tazmanica74

Only a healthy dog should be vaccinated having diarrhoea is not healthy. A good vet will not vaccinate when an animal still has diarrhoea if s/he starts trying to persuade you ask your vet for the contra-interdiction this is a leaflet that states what is and is not allowed, all vaccine manufactures state that only a healthy animal should be vaccinated. Always remember you are his/her's client s/he does what you say your animals health should always be top priority, waiting another week will do no harm.

As for the consistency I call it Mr Whippy when it is like that LOL
It does sound like small intestine is irritated and the food is passing through the small intestine far too quickly. Try and get some probiotic's and give smaller amounts of food for a few days.

If you want to try fish, frozen fish is fine defrost and steam or boil it well and make sure no bones are put in your dogs plate.

You can purchased "slippery elm bark" from any good health food shops the one used for humans is the same used for animal. If you can not find it just holler I will ask around my USA friends if they do not know I will search for good USA websites for you.

And do what everyone else says about them going outside, they so love it, your doing mighty fine with the potty training keep it up - well done you

-> I love my rice mushy

I love mushy rice as well LOL

ok,I still bring them out if its just rain but since Friday,it was storm with very strong wind so I didnt bring them out.The wind was strong that our full filled trash bin went disappear. No,its not hurricane LOL
Finally the rain stopped so they had a good run in our fenced yard.Now both of them lying in their bed sleeping like a baby.

Yes,please help me to ask around if anyone in USA know where I can get the tree bark powder.

This afternoon, for the first time I saw firm stool from summer but only ONE TIME.The 2nd time was wet but not melted ice cream. I hope I can see better after dinner.

Sounds like the irritation of the bowels is finally calming down.

Wow sounds like terrible weather where you are and YAY for summer for doing a firm stool congrats Tazmanica74 hehe

Well I have just checked the Dorwest Herbs website for you and they do have there products in the USA,
this is link: http://www.dorwest.com/products.asp?dept=94  scroll down the page to see links in usa.

I clicked on this companys link: http://hppets.com/shopsite_sc/herbal_supplements_dorwest_herbs.html it's in the usa.

not good.I think it was the pineapple...very watery stool again from winter. She has been firmed for a few days..and today,summer was having 50% firm stool till evening.

Winter had 4 watery poo this evening after dinner within 20mins. Summer's initial stool was solid whole long firmed stool but the ending part became loose.5mins later,she went back and had watery stool again.

sigh....I dont know where go wrong again...can only think it must be the pineapple.

thanks Katt

I just ordered the tree bark powder but it didnt indicate how much to give.
I also just ordered nutri vet probiotic from the store and would be picking it up tomorrow.

I am suddenly feeling very helpless once more...thought all went well when I saw firm stool from summer..and now winter started the watery stool again...

this morning both's stool were SOLID! I didnt add pineapple into their food this morning but I figured it cant be passed out so fast right?

I saw rice grain in winter's stool. It could be cos she was eating it too fast? Cos she finishes her food less than 1 minute.

And I caught her trying to nip on her own stool again.

Can anyone help me out about the poo eating digusting habit?I let them run in my yard and when I turned around to grab some papers to clean it up.Saw her feasting on it.Forbids doesnt work,pineapple doesnt work,wasabit doesnt work,pepper doesnt work,petshop's brand doesnt work....

Good news about the solid poo!

>I saw rice grain in winter's stool. It could be cos she was eating it too fast?

If it was a rice grain and not a tapeworm segment, you need to boil the rice with more liquid - it's still not absorbed all the liquid that it can. Speed of eating has no effect on digestion, it's the speed of transit through the gut that's important.

>Forbids doesnt work,pineapple doesnt work,wasabit doesnt work,pepper doesnt work,petshop's brand doesnt work....

Nothing will work instantly - you need to try one thing for a week; if at the end of the week there's no change at all, not even a lessening of the habit, then try a different thing. But only one trial at a time.