I dont think I have been any ruder to you , than  you have been to the judge concerned , who maybe cannot reply to your post ( or even know about it )

I havnt come on here just to start an argument . I didnt know this forum existed till yesterday . pure co incidence , I will be looking at other treads , but as Im a `show`er` this was the first  one I looked at .

It is of course silly to get into an argument .but do you not think the judge in particular would be hurt and offended that you think they didnt have the courage to withhold . personally I think in these circumstnces , which , as  you have said very rarley come up.
As I have said before , they would have been damed if they did and damed if they didnt

I think we should just move on . and think what a lucky person ( who obviously has a specimen of sufficiant merit ) they were to get a stud book number so quickly in their pups career

and what real value is a stud book number ? Ok youve qualified for crufts for life, big  deal , if your dog is halfgood enough it should be able to do qaulify each year anyhow. and then what ? Its not worth anymore re stud work etc , it dosnt make it win more , everything is subjective

I know loads of dogs with CH before and JW after their names that really I wouldnt give a SBN to

If my comments did offend then I could only apologise - everything in this world is down to opinion and as I did say I thought the judge was very good and we certainly would enter under them again.  I was just a contentious (sp?) decision on the day.  So let us leave it at that

Now the merit of a SBN is an interesting discussion, which I would be very interested to hear people's opinions on. 
I'm not completely au fait with how it is perceived in other breeds, but I know that it is something that people do get very excited about and I think rightly so within our breed. 

I'd like to put this from another point of view if I may.  I am now in the unfortunate situation that my 2 v. good Belgians no longer show (1 hates it, the other has been hurt by judges twice and now can't cope) so I only have my rescued Staffy bitch to show.  She's far from perfect and in a class of 5, she will be placed 5th every time!  However I love my showing and treat it as a social occasion and only now show at open level, neither myself of my dog care too much if we get placed or not but I would be mortified if we had a place witheld just because she's not perfect!  I can understand whitholding places at Champ. level, but at open, no.  Luckily I've not had this happen to me (yet!!), but if it does I will pack in showing alltogether.

I remember many years ago I entered my pet bred dog at an open show , I really didnt have a clue what I was doing then ( do I now I wonder ? lol) and he was the only one in the class  . , the judge , bless them , gave me a first and in the crit wrote ` stood alone , good condtion ` I still have that crit too . what a sado

That's what I mean about my Yankee, he's got a lovely head and movement but is a bit big and hasn't got enough coat, though neutering at 3 years old (for other reasons!) improved it a lot. We get placed at companion shows but never open shows, but recently we were 1st and BOB out of the only one entered, and I'm sorry if it's sad but I would have loved to see a write up, a judge could comment on his lovely head and movement and just say 'up to size' or something. But although she judged all the gundogs at that show, she hasn't done a write up, most disappointing!

Is a stud book number only given in breeds with CC's?

Im pretty new to showing so maybe im not getting the finer points of something..

But i would be disappointed to learn that my bitch only got various placings because there were that many dogs in the ring.

She got a 2nd at WELKS.. out of 2... so did she deserve that 2nd place.. or did she just get it because she was there. If id turned up with a three legged wrong coloured stunted wonky mouthed bitch, would that still have got second place?

Id like to think she deserved the placing she got (and I think she did, and earned it despite my atrocious handling which was commented on in the critique LOL!). If she only got it for being there.. well is there any real point going?

Should I just take her to shows where I know class numbers will be small... does this mean her award at WELKS is worth less than  her 2nd place at an open show where she placed above a pretty good dachsie pup...

Confused of Manchester.

> Is a stud book number only given in breeds with CC's?

Yes, I believe so. Different breed have different placings they have to achieve to get a SBN and that can be changed every year along with the band your breed is in.

> She got a 2nd at WELKS.. out of 2... so did she deserve that 2nd place.. or did she just get it because she was there. If id turned up with a three legged wrong coloured stunted wonky mouthed bitch, would that still have got second place?
>

Had the judge thought she was not worthy one would expect they would have withheld the place, only way to know the worth of your exhibit is to show a at least 6 championship shows and see how you go. At WELKS the dog that beat you was in the eyes of the judge better than yours but at another show the judge may think yours better than the one who beat you at WELKS, only time and more exhibiting will tell you the average of your exhibits success.

Now, contrary to some comments you hear, judges are people and therefore have different ideas of how to enterpretate (sp) the standard and the KC regulations. So some judges will withhold for very minor faults and other would not withhold if the dog had died and had visited a taxidermist. On the other hand most judges add a sprinkle of common sense to their judging and will not give an award a dog that is not of type or un-sound but will not reject one that has faults but is still easily recognised as it's breed and is sound.

Umm  I started this thread when I saw the results posted for WELKS and was a bit confused.  I think the judge withheld 1st and only gave 2nd but I'm waiting for the results to be published in DW to check.  Someone who was at the show said they too think that's what happened but it's very easy to get distracted and miss things!!

The subject has really caught peoples attention and also as a 'newbie' I've found the responses really interesting.  Although as my breed does not have CC's I realise that I've huge gaps in my knowledge, we obviously don't have as many classes or, it seems, quite so many rules!!

Like you theemx we've been placed in small classes and we've also got several Best Puppy placings - as the only puppy!!  I wondered if that was our 'turning up' prize.  However since then we've also got a couple of Puppy Group placings at Open Shows and we've been given BPIB at 3 out of our 4 Champ Shows so I can take consolation from that.  At our very first show we were the only puppy in a class of adults but being given Best Puppy made all the difference to my confidence and encouraged me to keep going.  My hands were shaking so much the pair of us looked like we were in an earthquake and then I dropped the lead on his head whilst we were moving.  Thank god for a sympathetic judge and helpful steward!! 

I think certainly at open level, the element of encouragement newcomers get for prizes might well outweight any downside of placing dogs that one ought not really place...

So it does have that in its favour, at our first show Kel came home with a Best Puppy in Group and a Puppy Group 3 and I would like to think she at least deserved the group 3, the BP.. wel she was the ONLY puppy so shed have to be the best one there.

Without that win.. I doubt though that my OH who in the main, does the handling, would have realy wanted to carry on, hes a sensitive flower and theres nowt like a shiny ribbon to make it all worthwhile to him!

I do have to say, that without the tolerance of judges for newbie mistakes we would not be here (and the tolerance of other exhibitors - you would have had to time me with a CALENDAR getting round the ring at WELKS and its only the fear of utter humiliation that kept me from collapsing, built for running I am not and built for running at Deerhound speed... well. it was a sight most would rather not have beheld I bet!), and i will remain ever thankful for the encouragement and support of the people I have met at shows.

Prizes are after all the icing on the cake really!

> I think certainly at open level, the element of encouragement newcomers get for prizes might well outweight any downside of placing dogs that one ought not really place...
>

Think this is true and I think it is right, nearly all of us start with a dog bought as a pet and learn that the dog we have is not good enough and go get ourselves a better one if we can. Or some of us never quite get the high flyer we would like but learn to enjoy showing anyway. Showing does teach one a lot about dogs and the different breeds and opens you to more dog owning experience from others that there is no other way of acquiring.

There are a few who are lucky to find there very first dog is top class, perhaps courtesy a breeder and there is a big excitement around the breed ring if a newcomer suddenly finds their beloved dog doing really well.

We too have had a first place at an open show because my dog was the only one. My daughter went in the ring as there were few dog entered an she wanted the chance to be placed. She was given first as the other entered dogs didn't turn up. I am so grateful to this breed judge as it really encouraged her, his write up was fair as he said the dog was unspectacular but then listed his good points and concluded that more ringcraft would help.