Would like your input about premier shows.

Would you enter a Premier Open Show when you would not enter a normal open show given the same judge and venue?

Would you travel further to a Premier Open Show?

Would you pay more to enter a Premier Open Show?

What advantage do you think a Premier Open Show offers the exhibitor?

Any other comments on Premier Open Shows their advantages or disadvantages to the exhibitor or show society.

Many thanks.

>Would you enter a Premier Open Show when you would not enter a normal open show given the same judge and venue?

Not specifically a Premier open show. What makes me enter an open show would be a breed judge, a decent classification (at least four classes) and a good venue. An idea of running order so you are not standing about all day is also a draw for me.

>Would you travel further to a Premier Open Show?

As above

>Would you pay more to enter a Premier Open Show?

To be honest, if I want to enter a show (for all the above reasons), I don't particularly notice the entry fee in more than a passing way. If it were noticeably higher cost, I wouldn't necessarily have an issue with that, but would expect decent rosettes etc. available.

>What advantage do you think a Premier Open Show offers the exhibitor?

Qualification for Crufts for BOB is presumably a draw for those who don't have the time/money/inclination to enter champ shows, but isn't particularly of note to me.

>Any other comments on Premier Open Shows their advantages or disadvantages to the exhibitor or show society.

Not really. I can see why they were implemented, but I think for most exhibitors I know addressing the points in my first response would make more difference. The Premier OSs I have seen seem to get a decent entry in my breed, but not particularly any better than a decent breed judge with no clashing shows.

M.

I enter normal open shows anyway, more than I support champion shows.  Makes me laugh that many newcomers seem to sidestep open shows these days and go straight to champ shows. 

For me it's not a question of which to enter because as a breed with classes for the first time this year, I've done the import register rounds for the last god knows how long anyway and have promoted the breed as much as I can so will go to quite a few shows if they had breed classes.  Though I need a dog to show at the moment, hopefully my new puppy will be the one!

I support open shows - venue and location play a big part for me - I don't tend to travel more than 1 hour to an open - as yet haven't excluded any judges that I go under!

I wouldn't enter a Premier just because it was a premier - i.e. if the location wasn't right for me then I would not enter

I guess I would pay slightly higher but if it was really high probably wouldn't.

I suppose the fact that BOB qualifies for Crufts is the thing that benefits the exhibitor - but not sure how many don't attend Championship shows that would have qualified them previously? 

If the entry numbers are low then someone who poss. would not qualify at the champ show would - as a BOB has to be declared?

  Makes me laugh that many newcomers seem to sidestep open shows these days and go straight to champ shows. 


Hi Perrodeagua,  Just wondered why it makes you laugh.  Not picking on your post , just wondered.

I personally am a great supporter of open shows, always have been. There are a good dozen I faithfully do every year to support them.  Only done a couple this year as in my neck  of the woods this is really the chunk of the shows starting.  In the last 6 months  I have been very disappointed of late with the open shows.  Judges are just anyone for my breed and they never seem to offer any B list judges from our breed clubs which I think is appalling really.  A recent open show I was at the judge was a person who came up from near Kent area and isn't even in terriers.

The worst show I have been at this year is The Carluke show.  As long as I live I won't be back. The inside rings were a disgrace. Bright red sand. Can you imagine running small white harsh coated terriers that you spend all year keeping clean on that.   I carried mine between the " plastic " sheets.   There was no clean space the whole place was red sand and quite deep.   Everything I took was covered. My grooming tools everything.     I spoke the one of the committee members and was horrfied at her attitude to my comments.

On a positive note there are those who set themselves apart from the rest though and have a wonderful show and committee. Off the top of my head Tayside Lochee never fail to impress me in their efforts to support up and coming judges, the thought into the running of the show and their committee. 

Lily Mc gives a very thorough reply about the reasons for entering a show.  I thought a bit of feedback from a person new to showing might also be helpful.

I've just started - the puppy and I came out in January.  We've only done 15 shows; 9 Open, 1 Breed, 1 Premier and 4 Champ.  I've tried to read as much as I can, I ask for help, go to Ringcraft and buy the books.  We also have a very supportive breeder and a few similarly placed puppy owners from the same litter. 

BUT it isn't immediately obvious what the differences are between an Open and Premier Open Show!!  At Bridgwater Prem there was an opportunity for a few BOB's to qualify for Crufts but it didn't apply to our breed.  Perhaps the difference is more obvious with a qualifying breed?  For us it felt much the same as an Open show and I'd make the decision purely based on location, classes and judge.  The Prem Show did have more trade stands which was helpful but I don't know if that's usual.  Entry cost isn't really part of the equation as the biggest expense is fuel.

If higher entry costs enable a better venue, I can see that I might travel to places I like.  I've already found that some venues are noticably more comfortable than others and if I'm relaxed - then so is my dog!!

Time of year might also become a factor.  I've rejected several Prem Shows recently as there were no breed classes and we have other shows to be getting on with.  Over the winter though I'll be pleased to keep up the momentum and AV classes in any reasonably local show will be fine.  We've qualified for our first Crufts too so I'll be needing whatever practise I can get in January and February!!

Hope this is of help

Edited to add:  With the way the Open and Prem shows are set up and organised there seems much more opportunity to talk to other people in different breeds.  We've received some amazingly friendly and helpful advice and I genuinely wouldn't have received the placings we have without it.  From the person who pointed me in the right direction; to the one who held my hand cos I was shaking so much; to the lots of people who said congrats; whispered points of advice and showed me how I could hold the lead better; THANK YOU

Makes me laugh because in days of old we would start at the bottom and work our way up, these days people seem to just want to hit the top, no wonder so many open shows are being lost and what with petrol prices, entry fees etc. we will be lucky to have this fun hobby in the future.

Do you not this it has been the same for years.  I can only speak from my experience but some after 20 years still do both types and others do one or the other.

I wonder if things like the ShCM helped.  I thought it was a bit sad that the JW gave a stud book but the ShCM didn't . Both can be won in equally hard ways.

In my breed open show entries have risen 2 or 3 fold. We still have poor classes often none though.

IMHO People go straight to the 'qualify for Crufts' shows these days as this appears to be the 'gold standard' (despite the fact in some breeds it's virtually impossible not to.) 

Before the requirement for Crufts qualification people went to all types of shows for all sorts of reasons:- location, venue, judge, catering, price of entry and distance.
Just think, if there were no need to qualify your dogs, would you only attend championship shows? Or would you go local and get the opinion of a ( possibly ) knowledgeable judge, have a day out with friends, decent bacon sarnie, spend about a tenner to enter two dogs and use a small amount of fuel?     Not all dogs can be chasing tickets surely.
It's no coincidence that since the qualifier, open, limit and sanction shows have paid the price.
I suppose the Premier Shows are seen mainly as a further opportunity to 'Q' and so the devalueing of the common-or-garden Open show continues.

I'm new to showing and didn't even know that Premier Open shows existed. I started with opens so I could get some practice before stepping into the big ring. My first (make that only) champ show was Boston in Jan. I prefer champ shows though and am going to opens less often simply because they are far too crowded. Walking your dog through the venue is like pulling a sardine out of the tin lengthwise. I've been in classes with 16 dogs in a ring big enough for about 6. So it's not the qualifying for Crufts or expecting to win CC in my first year that put me off open shows. Maybe we have so few champ shows up here that the opens are better supported. There's no lack of dogs, that's for sure.

Am off to check my diary for Premier to see what you're on about now. I would pay a bit more if it meant more room.

> Makes me laugh because in days of old we would start at the bottom and work our way up, these days people seem to just want to hit the top, no wonder so many open shows are being lost and what with petrol prices, entry fees etc. we will be lucky to have this fun hobby in the future.

Personally I prefer champ shows because I know there will be a representative entry of my breed.

If I go to Open shows I actually prefer there not to be breed classes, as invariably it is the same few dogs competing each time in my numerically small breed with a very long show life.

I do love open shows as you can meet and learn about other breeds more easily.

I won't go to an Open show that does not have a decent selection of variety classes with a chance to show the dogs under different judges.

Unfortunately I haven't been to one for two years as I have no lifts for Opens, the people I used to go with emigrated, or moved away.

Many thanks for your replies they have been helpful. This morning I had a bit of a crises of confidence, my predecessor as the clubs show secretary was hell bent on getting and then keeping Premier open show status but when I took over I felt that I would rather provide a wide classification for the breeds with lots of AV and Stakes classes this inevitable drops the chance of maintaining an average of 5 per class.

My predecessor dropped the number of classes to make sure he would have enough entries to continue with the Premier show for one of our two shows a year when I took over I decided to give the classes back but continue trying to give each breed a breed specialist judge and enough AV classes so each exhibit could go under at least 3 different judges. However this morning when I was sorting the schedule for the November show I did wonder if my decision was correct. Wondered if I had done the club and exhibitors a disservice by my decision but your replies make me think I did not and as I had thought the exhibitors want, breed judges where possible and a wide classification.

Thanks.

Sounds good to me, Jackie. I am on a breed club, so if you ever need assistance with judging lists for Rough Collies (or Smooths!), drop me a line.

M.

> Sounds good to me, Jackie. I am on a breed club, so if you ever need assistance with judging lists for Rough Collies (or Smooths!), drop me a line.
>

Thanks, should have said it is a Hound Group club, we do have stewards from the pastorial group but not judges as yet Very nice of you to offer though you would be supprised how difficult it is sometimes to get judging lists.

LOL, oops. My friend breeds and judges Whippets too LOL.

M.

I think your decision is an excellent one Nova - one of the reasons I don't bother much with open shows these days is because my breed rarely if ever has classes and when we do, rarer still do we get a breed judge.  If the judge elect is also doing the varieties and group, there's no point in entering more than one class as the dog(s) get no further different assessment from a hands on POV and it just means a long drawn out day, especially if training youngsters.

If you can help some breeds get specialists and also exhibitors the chance to enter under different judge(s) for variety classes I'm sure you'll get greater support!

Very best wishes for a super entry,
Teri

Lily MC - Always open to suggestions, just send a message with name and contact details and I will give your friend some thought when I am working on the next judging panel.

Was only joking Jackie, best I could offer under the circumstances!

M.

Lily Mc, I'm not proud will take any offer with grace, so if your friend is looking for appointments and is on a breed B list I would welcome the information, personal recommendation is always nice as I can't possible know ever judge I appoint and I live in dread I will appoint a heavy handed one.

If you need a Beagle judge please let me know I have lists from two clubs with lots of up an coming judges. Went to an open show recently and we had an allrounder who was very very nice but did not have a clue got it all wrong bless, you have to laugh!

> If you need a Beagle judge please let me know I have lists from two clubs with lots of up an coming judges.

I have the Beagle Association list for 2008 but to me they are just names, so if you want to make suggestions via the message system I would be grateful to have your recommendations.

can i ask what the difference between an open and a premier open is? im very new to showing, and so far have only been to 2 shows, 1 open, 1 champ. the only reason i went to the champ one is that im up in scotland and went to borders as it is within several hours drive. im not planning on doing many champ shows this year but wanted the experiecnce of one. i have another open show at end of month and one in august.

Excellent, you'll need B list so they can do 4 classes plus? I have the BA & BC 2008 lists at home so will double check them tonight and then email you some recommendations. Thanks

Bertbeagle that would be very helpful, we offer 6 classes for beagles at the moment and the entry is getting a bit disappointing so rather than cut the classes I would rather go for a judge that people would want to support. We usually have someone from the B list although will take them from one of the A lists as well, prefer to have an up and coming person if possible because they are usually still showing and people know them and will support them.

Just had a look and your June show clashed with the BC Champ show (same day) so that's why the entry would not have been so good. We have some great up an coming judges who would definatley get supported, don't worry I have a few people in mind but need to check what lists they are on etc.

> can i ask what the difference between an open and a premier open is?

Think the answer is not a lot, if you win BOB or BP in selected breeds you will get a certificate to say you have qualified for Crufts. And that is just about it.

From the point of view of the show society you have to be successful and have had an average class entry of at least 5 per class over your last two shows. That is becoming more and more difficult and there is a 'huge' form to fill in to be given the status of a premier show that I think people are beginning to wonder if it is worth it as to reach the magic number 5 they are having to cut some breeds altogether and reduce the number of classes for others so that a few breeds can have the chance of the BOB & BP being qualified for Crufts.

The last show I stewarded for was a Premier and of the two breeds that had certificates both the winners of BOB were champions so there was from their point of view no point at all.

> Just had a look and your June show clashed with the BC Champ show (same day)

We did know that and have moved it for next year to a week later we also used a judge that could do another breed as well, one has to think about the judge traveling a long way and only getting a few entries. The November one should not be a problem as I think we have avoided just about everything apart from the Christmas shopping

Am looking for Beagle judges from Nov. 09 onwards have a judge for this Nov and next June, well tell you who in a private message as I will get told off for doing my work on the forum