can anyone tell me who is the offender...the person who docks illegally or the person who owns an illegally docked dog....or both? reason for asking is that i saw some friends today (the ones who had their cocker shot by suspected poachers that I posted about a few weeks ago). Their friendly local keeper has sold them a working cocker (i know! Iknow!) who is 12 weeks old and docked. i asked if they had the paperwork/chip info for the legal docking and they said he had no chip or certificate etc. So im curious to know if they are also offending by owning him?

The person who did the illegal docking is the one who committed the offence.

If he was born in England (don't know about Wales) he could have been legally docked. Working gundogs can still be docked if the breeder can prove that they are potential workers. In this case I would think that a gamekeeper would only breed from working stock and would therefore expect some, if not all, to go to working homes. Here in Scotland we can't even dock working bred pups.

If they are stopped they can give the details of the keeper and it will be up to him to prove they were legally docked.

>Working gundogs can still be docked if the breeder can prove that they are potential workers.

Yes, but they must be chipped at the same time. If the dog isn't chipped then the docking isn't legal.

Oh, I didn't realise that. As we don't have docking up here, and I don't have a docked breed, I suppose I haven't been paying too much attention.

You live and learn.

> As we don't have docking up here, and I don't have a docked breed, I suppose I haven't been paying too much attention

I think this is the view held by many people in that it wasn't well publicised and many people do not know about the docking ban etc etc.  I'm sure there are many people that have bought a docked pup not realising that the act itself (except workers) is now illegal.

They do NOT require chipping at the time of docking, pups are docked at 2/3 days of age which is far too young to be chipping any dog, they MUST however be chipped prior to them being 12 weeks of age to meet the legal requirements of the act. 

If the dog has no paperwork, then it does not automatically mean that it was illegally docked, but it does tend to point in that direction, was the cocker bred by the keeper or by a 3rd party?

Ask your vet to scan the pup for a chip to establish if the dog is actually chipped or not.

Mike

I think both!  The person buyng has willingly bought an illegal dog.  It surprises me how many gundog breeds are still being docked and I'm sure that many of them aren't going to working homes.

Looking at the Defra site, dogs which have been legally docked must have a certificate issued by a vet. The certificate contains certain information required by law and must be signed by a vet. The certificate is issued when the microchipping is done.

>pups are docked at 2/3 days of age which is far too young to be chipping any dog

From the CDB " Puppies being docked must be microchipped, either at the time of docking or when the vet considers they are old enough."

no PD they INNOCENTLY bought a docked dog without knowing the law. The keeper didnt breed it himself either and has nowgiven up his job & moved away......doubt anyone could trace breeder easily but now I have told them the legal issues they are afraid to take it to the vet incase he reorts them or something!!!

Well with the story as you put it Sam, then the person has nothing to fear.  Is it a gundog breed?  Just wondering because of course we know that legally it's only working breeds that can still legally be docked IF they are going to be worked.

Just as an aside to the docking issue, it has been a joy to see undocked puppies and youngsters which I have never previously seen with a tail. They look much better WITH what nature intended them to have.

Kat

Oh I don't know. I saw a Dobermann with a tail yesterday. The tail curled over the dogs back. It looked awful. A well set tail will probably be fine, but who is going to decide how these tails are going to be set in few generations? The tail carriage will either make or break some breeds. I don't envy the breeders of these breeds.

> Just as an aside to the docking issue, it has been a joy to see undocked puppies and youngsters which I have never previously seen with a tail. They look much better WITH what nature intended them to have.
>

Some do, some don't and some are a disaster. Reckon it may take years to get the set right, only hope the rest of the dogs conformation survives the breeders trying to sort the tail.

Just looking on my friends site who is a DW photographer and there's a photo of a Dobe with a tail on there, sorry, don't like it!  Must admit I'm falling in love with my girls tail at the moment, just hope that it doesn't all of a sudden start curling.

>Reckon it may take years to get the set right

It's no different to what the breeders of tailed breeds have had to do in the past, and still have to make sure they hang on to.

> and still have to make sure they hang on to.

What to JG she says wondering if you mean the handler can hang on or the tail will hang on?

At least my breed keeps there's out of harms way although the tail set can be incorrect it does not show so much.

>wondering if you mean the handler can hang on or the tail will hang on?

LOL! No, I meant hanging on to (not losing) the correct tail set and carriage with careless breeding. Even in tailed breeds with many generations of breeding 'for tails', you still get dreadful ones turning up.

Must admit to a giggle, was not too sure what you meant but gave me a laugh.

Some do, some don't and some are a disaster. Reckon it may take years to get the set right, only hope the rest of the dogs conformation survives the breeders trying to sort the tail.
(sorry, can't do that faded thingy)

You see, here we go again. What is to be judged a disaster? The way it looks? Maybe the Doberman is meant to have a 'piggly wiggly' tail, just because we don't like the look of it doesn't mean it isn't right does it?  Immediately we want to start changing things - breeding in a type and set of tail for a dog the way WE think it would look best. Kind of makes a mockery of kidding everyone that breeding and docking (before the ban) is for a 'purpose' rather than to be aesthetically pleasing (in our eyes). For dogs that have been docked since living memory, no-one really knows how their tails should look 'naturally' do they?

It's all a bit of a conundrum isn't it? For those who love their docked breeds I think I can understand how odd it must look, but perhaps it's just a case of getting used to it?

I've seen a variety of 'tails' in the now undocked breeds, and to me they all looked great (including a Dobe who did have a bit of a piggly wiggly) - it just looked jolly LOL

My remark was made having watched a group of puppies of a breed that used to be docked, most the tails were ok if different to one another but one poor pup with a very high tail set had the tail looped in such a way that the tip kept touching his back, it was driving him mad. A disaster. Guess he will get used to it or it will be removed because he sure can't go on the way he was then.

>

> You see, here we go again. What is to be judged a disaster? The way it looks? Maybe the Doberman is meant to have a 'piggly wiggly' tail, just because we don't like the look of it doesn't mean it isn't right does it?  Immediately we want to start changing things - breeding in a type and set of tail for a dog the way WE think it would look best. Kind of makes a mockery of kidding everyone that breeding and docking (before the ban) is for a 'purpose' rather than to be aesthetically pleasing (in our eyes). For dogs that have been docked since living memory, no-one really knows how their tails should look 'naturally' do they?

Chinablue, your post replicates my thoughts.  I was wondering to myself today who changes the breed standard on a traditionally docked breed.  My current favoured breed for next addition to the family is a rottie but I hate the curled and held high tails and prefer ones that sit like labs, BUT if the breed standard is changed to state that a screw tail is the preferred tail set then I would be looking for a dog that doesn't meet the breed standard.  Hmm, what is a girl to do?

to do the 'shaded thingy' copy the text you want to quote and there is a wee button under the box you type in that is grey, click that and your text will appear in the box and when you post it will be shaded.

> I was wondering to myself today who changes the breed standard on a traditionally docked breed. 

The breed clubs were asked by the KC to provide an alternative tail status for breeds which had been traditionally docked some years ago (2002 ish i think).

Thanks for the info Kate, do you know if there is a list available anywhere online?

The description of the desired 'natural' tail is included in the breed standards on the KC website.

For the Dobermann, for example, the clause on the tail reads:
Previously customarily docked.
Docked: Docked at 1st or 2nd joint. Appears to be a continuation of spine without material drop.
Undocked: Appears to be a continuation of spine without material drop, or slightly raised when the dog is moving.

thanks, never thought to look. Doh!

Previously customarily docked.
Docked: Docked at 1st or 2nd joint. Appears to be a continuation of spine without material drop.
Undocked: Appears to be a continuation of spine without material drop, or slightly raised when the dog is moving.>

does that mean...... without being raised or that it should be raised???

It seems to mean that the tail shouldn't be carried high or low.

> to do the 'shaded thingy' copy the text you want to quote and there is a wee button under the box you type in that is grey, click that and your text will appear in the box and when you post it will be shaded.

Hey thanks Cheeky Chow!

I wonder how they came to that conclusion? The German Shepherd and Labrador tails for example appear to be a continuation of the spine (which of course they all are) but are carried very differently. I guess they just had to have something in the standard as these dogs will now be appearing on the show circuit. It will be interesting to see what variety of tail sets appear.
K

> It will be interesting to see what variety of tail sets appear

As I said earlier, some good, some bad, and some a problem, as you don't like the word disaster. Do wonder how the showing methods will change. Watching a ring full of Rottie pups and some held the tail like a greyhound, some a Lab and yet others with the tail over the back, the handlers were ignoring apart from those who had very gay tails and these were being swiped at.

I show my Rottie bitch with a tail and while in a stand her tail hangs low (as I think it should) once on the move generally all Rotties will hold their tails higher and ideally they should only curve slightly...some however do curl more over the back. 

Either way I love to see a Rottweiler how they should be....with a tail, its nice to see a dog wagging its tail and having it there to help with body language.

> its nice to see a dog wagging its tail and having it there to help with body language.

Although I am sure that a dogs tail gives signals to its human companions I do often wonder how much it is used between dogs, particularly different breeds of dogs.

At one time I thought like you do but since owning one of the primitive breeds who's tails are curled over the back all the time they are awake I have started to wonder if the tail is that important in communication between dogs. Thinking along the same lines I don't recall that docked dogs had much difficulty in communicating either, some dogs are good with other dogs some are not I do not think the tail has any bearing on this.

One used to be told that the tail was part of the balancing system of a dog, I doubt that too as my dogs nor docked dogs seem to have trouble balancing and none as far as I know are prone to falling over.

I don't think the tail is important at all.  Get down on all fours at the same level as your dog and see what is the first thing you see with your dog, it's definitely not the tail!  Never had any problems with my natural short tailed or docked dogs!

I'm not too sure what to think about the tails, my boy has never had communication problems just because he can't wag his tail high like others, his face tends to show he's happy!
As I say to most people, I couldn't imagine her with out her tail and I couldn't imagine him with one.

The only problems I've encountered with now having a tail is that Lily's tail keeps wacking Razzle in the eye, poor sod's got a sore on it now, he's played with Labs, GSD, Dallys and Whippets + many many more with tails and not been hurt by a tail so why does it happen with a Boxer with a tail?

LOL he now squints everytime Lily gets excited!

in answer to the original question the person who docked is at fault providing they dont live in Ireland or the litter was born in Ireland.  I still get queries from about 2% of people whon dont know about the ban. 

Docking is still legal in Ireland for working breeds and some UK breeders are taking their dogs over there to be whelped (so they say) and then docked and then charging an extra feww hundred pounds because they are legally docked. 

"Its nice seeing dogs wag their tails" Docked dogs also wag their tails" you just have to realise they are waggin their tails, mostly of the time their who rear ends wag too so there is no difficulty in wagging and comminicating, although from a canine communication point of view I understand this could be misunderstood but not humans unless you do not understand dogs.

Tails as part of balancing are a myth, i have owned docked breed for over 20 years and none have fallen over on a walk or wobbled because they cant balance, I think this excuse comes from cats as cats do use their tails for balance but cats are climbing walls, fences, buildings and trees and need balance - dogs are not!!

Surely a tail should be carried in relation to the breed tailset and topline.  If a dog obviously drops off at the croup whether tail docked or undocked it should be penalised.  I think breeders over the years have been able to hide tails that drop off my hoiking the tail up (in docked breeds) and therefore hiding a fault. As with my breed a tail is a continuation fo the spine and if it 'drops off' then it is a fault.  Some of the Dobes at the mo (docked and undocked) drop off but a good handler could hide it better in the docked as you can hold the tail up.  I think in a dobermann as the tail is a continuation of the spine as per breed standard the tail should be up and curled over.  If the tailset is low then the tail would be carried low but in a dobermann a low tail carridge will look silly.

Does that make sense?

My Spanish can climb trees, walls etc and run very fast never ever have I seen either the docked or the natural bobrtails loose their balance doing any of these activities.

was in ayr town shopping when kids spotted a  rottie bitch only 16 weeks old with a docked tail i asked the lady wher she bought it she said up north, i said its against the law to dock its tail she said yes i know but i would not have bought it with a long tail !! so the owner kindly removed it wow , could not get any further details out of her, some people ..s