Just trawling through the puppy register/new litters on here, and I have noticed  a litter of both GSP and ESS , both litters have been docked, all of them, and the wording says ..... suitable for working or pet homes... legally docked, and certificated (by vet)

As far as I was aware you can dock a pup/s in a litter if they are going to working homes, but how have the breeders managed to get the whole litter docked, as surely  all will not be working dogs, as they state in their adverts ...working or pet

Just curious as to how the managed this.

At 3 days of age when most pups are docked it is impossible to tell which will have the potential for work so the whole litter would need to be done.

If the litter is likely to be used for working and that can be proven then they can be legally docked. It doesn't mean they have to go to working homes once docked.

We are seeing an increased number of Rottie pups turning up at a local obedience class, just 3 months old!!!

Kay

> We are seeing an increased number of Rottie pups turning up at a local obedience class, just 3 months old!!!
>

Great to hear more and more people are training their dogs, espicially the ones that need it a bit more then most!

Do you mean docked Rottie pups as it is not legal to dock those.

I'm getting the impression (not on CD just in general) that doggy & non doggy people still aren't 100% sure of the whole docking laws & rules regarding showing them.
I had a big debate about it with a friend of mine at training, him saying a lady's pup isn't allowed to be shown at a show of ours because it had been docked (it is still legal on the IOM to dock) the schedule said "only undocked and legally docked dogs may be entered at this show" and he took it that this meant basically only tailed puppies and dogs docked before 06/04/07 were allowed to be shown.
I tried to explain that this wording was correct and didn't mean what he thought it was, as there are 2 different wordings depending on the show, the public weren't paying to enter our show so infact the pup could be shown as it was legally docked.
How ever it if Q'd for Crufts it wouldn't be able to attend as the public pay to enter so the schedule should say "any dog docked on or after 06/04/07 may not be entered for exhibiton at this show" or to that liking.
How ever he wouldn't beleive me, I am right in my thinking?

> it is still legal on the IOM to dock

Is it really? That's a lesson for me. How does that come about then? Ignore that, have just googled and found your political status. Well, I never knew that, I would have assumed you were officially part of the UK and subject to its laws.

(Not against docking, by the way.)

M.

Yes you are right about mainland showing, paying public etc, but if docking is permitted in IOM why do they say only legally docked dogs permitted at your shows?  Do they mean any old IOM docked dog can enter but a mainland one has to be docked under the working heading and therefore legal? Why do they care if they permit showing?
Sorry lots of editing

The shows are held under KC rules and regs and we do some times have exhibitors from the UK come to ours shows so the statement has to go on the schedule saying legally docked dogs can only be exhibited so a rottie docked in the UK after 06/04/07 couldn't be shown as its ilegal in the UK but docked in the IOM or Ireland etc could be shown but if it was docked before 06/04/07 it could be shown at any show as it was legally docked in UK before the ban.

How ever not many IOM exhibitors dock now becuase this would restrict showing in the UK, ie Leeds charged the public to enter so the example IOM rottie docked after 06/04/07 wouldn't be allowed in even though it was docked in a "country" where it's legal. confussing eh!

Blimey, it's no wonder the general public are confused, is it!?

M.

> confussing eh!

I'll say

Exactly, and I think these different rules have confussed some irish exhibitors, my puppy was the only one that was shown in ireland with a tail (in our breed) all the others in her class are docked (after 06/04/07) and there for couldn't be shown at Crufts or paying public shows and I think they are unaware of this because their dogs are legally docked in Ireland they think they are ok to show in UK.

I hope the Crufts schedule make this clear as I wouldn't want to see DEFRA marching into a ring and pulling some one up for having a docked pup/junior and then this would probably result in the KC being in trouble for allowing an "illegal dog" to be shown (i can image that'd be the spin they'd put on it)

Yes Brainless, that's what I meant, docked Rottie pups, aged 3 months !

Kay

So confusing, no wonder people have no idea on the docking laws...

Sadly we still see puppies who where traditionally docked before the ban, docked....so far I have seen a couple of Rotti`s, Boxers, (saw one the other day)  people either plead ignorance or simply say , we wanted a docked pup.....makes me wonder how many vets are doing their job in reporting them.

Yes you are right about mainland showing, paying public etc

That's how I understand it also,   any show that has a entry fee (for the public, not exhibitors)   you will not be allowed to show  legally docked dog, that where docked after  the cut of date.

And those that are legally docked should really only come from the Gun dog group,  as , as far as I know these are the only exemptions??

Well unlike the smoking ban there was no publicity outside canine circles about the docking ban therefore I am sure there are lots of puppy producers and general public unaware of the rule.  Plenty of them continued to dock their own pups even though it has been illegal for lay persons to dock for some years.

>And those that are legally docked should really only come from the Gun dog group,  as , as far as I know these are the only exemptions?

Some terriers as well.

> And those that are legally docked should really only come from the Gun dog group,  as , as far as I know these are the only exemptions??

Terriers that work too.

Terriers that work too.

Sorry, forgot them....LOL!

> makes me wonder how many vets are doing their job in reporting them

I wasn't aware that it was a vet's job. Is there a law for people with legally docked dogs (which may have come from overseas after the ban) to take relevant paperwork with them every time they visit the vets?

I guess they could take the KC papers of the original country registered?

It is not up to vets to report any illegally docked puppies. The only person who can ask to see the docking certificate is the police; it has nothing to do with anyone else.
If any of my pups go to vets whereby the vets complain about the docked tail I simlply tell them to change vets.

There are a whole litter of ' legally ' docked pups for sale in my local paper today .

As long as they have the docking certificates then they are legal. There are lots of legally docked pups for sale in my local paper.

you can legally take your pups to Ireland (no passports needed) and get them docked there (only if you have the money for the ferry etc!) so i think alot of people are starting to do this. There is nothing as far as I am aware to say that this cannot be done.

> you can legally take your pups to Ireland (no passports needed) and get them docked there

As I understand it that is actually illegal. I am sure it was factored into the Scottish complete ban that working dogs could not be taken across the border to England to be legally docked, and I am sure the same applies wrt taking puppies to Eire to dock if they were born in the UK.

Having looked, according to this link http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/item/1659 it is only Scotland specifically that has banned puppies from being taken out of the country to be docked. And docking would still appear to be legal in NI. It is all somewhat confusing....

Am i right in thinking that it is not against the law to own an illegally docked dog , just to dock illegally ?

> http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2006/pdf/ukpga_20060045_en.pdf

It's section 6 in there - but legal terminology loses me. As far as I can see it is not an offence to own an illegally docked dog provided you were not party to it being docked, but it is illegal to own a legally docked dog over 3mths old without the correct paperwork... or that's how it reads to me, I may be wrong.

If you look at section 6 (2) (a) it states , ' A person commits an offence if he is responsible for a dog .'
That leads me to believe that you can be prosecuted for owning an illegally docked dog .
Very confusing !!!!!!!!

I thought that bit was related to the bits below, that he commits an offence if he is responsible for a dog that he allows someone to remove the tail of - rather than just being responsible for the dog.

Does the word "minfield " come to mind!!!!!!

A person commits an offence if (a) he is responsible for a dog ,  (b) .......

If it was the way you mean it should say ( IMO) A person commits an offence if he is responsible for a dog which (a)........

It is the way which an individual interperates the wording which could lead to prosecution because we just can't understand it !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Pass the chocolate !!!!

> As I understand it that is actually illegal. I am sure it was factored into the Scottish complete ban that working dogs could not be taken across the border to England to be legally docked, and I am sure the same applies wrt taking puppies to Eire to dock if they were born in the UK.

Can you show me where this information is please as i have not come across it

sorry have just re-read the posts and found the piece Thanks!

> It is the way which an individual interperates the wording which could lead to prosecution because we just can't understand it !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It's how lawyers make their money because they are the only ones that do understand it.

> Pass the chocolate !!!!

And sorry you can't have the chocolate as I need it all today!!!! Red wine?

I'll say ' no thanks ' to the red wine . I've given up alcohol - chocolate is my new vice !!!!!!!!!!!

See http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/cgi-bin/item.cgi?id=1659&d=pg_dtl_art_news&h=242&f=0 for a definitive answer.

Where ?
I can't see the answer to my question - who will be prosecuted , the person who docks the dog or the owner of a dog ?
I believe i have read previously that it is the person who docks the dog . Therefore there is no deterrent to buying a docked pup .
I am personally not against docking , i would just like to know the answer .

The person who docks the dog and the person who owns the dog at the time it's illegally docked are both guilty of an offence.

So if you buy an already docked pup - you won't be prosecuted . This is what i thought .

No, it's not an offence to own an illegally-docked dog.

Information here.

you can legally take your pups to Ireland (no passports needed) and get them docked there (only if you have the money for the ferry etc!) so i think alot of people are starting to do this. There is nothing as far as I am aware to say that this cannot be done.

no you cant, it is illegal to take the pups there, dock them then bring them back

> In Response to Brainless
> Do you mean docked Rottie pups as it is not legal to dock those.
>
> ive been under the impression that it is illegal to dock rotties i cant see why it would still be leg

Brainless said "it is not legal" hayley123

lol sorry, ive deleted the post

LOL - I have days like that too

I met a docked 3 month old Rottie pup on Sunday at a puppy training school open day.  Wish I'd been brave enough to ask why it was docked!

So what it all boils down to is...taking aside the legally docked pups,  we are still seeing Rotti`, Boxers, and other breeds who will have no exemption  to dock, being docked.

If it is no one's responsibility  to report the illegally docked pup, i.e vet , trainer,  or any other form of authority, to the police.. how is the law to be uphold..???

By the way I am very much pro docking!!!  but it just seems yet again  we have another law that is a total farces....  as illegal docking is still going on and no one is accountable.

Yet again it is the responsible who abide by the law.... the show breeder will not dock  for the simple reason they want to show, the working breeder is allowed to dog legally,docked pups can come in from Ireland,   but as always, the pet/byb  breeder are the ones who blatantly ignore the law and carry on regardless.

No wonder it is all so confusing!!!!!!

I met a girl recently who had bought a docked JR x Border Terrier puppy from a local farmer.  When I mentioned that I thought they weren't allowed to dock she explained that as he'd bred them to be working farm dogs - and didn't know which he'd be keeping - that it was ok to dock them all.

Has she got that right, or has he just told her what he hoped he would get away with?  I didn't question it much further, as I wasn't sure, but I suspect she wouldn't have reported him anyway as she doesn't mind one way or the other.  I suppose that until tails become commonplace many people just won't 'notice' docked dogs.

I'm off to read the rules!!