Hi List
just a question, How many litters can be registered by 1 bitch in 1 year?
info please as it dosnt state on the kc website and feel silly to report an incident if it is allowed

mel

http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/item/346  should answer your question.

For an unlicensed breeder, there is no restriction in place.

For a licensed breeder, only one litter per bitch per year.

M.

mellssa i dont think the k.c would regester more than one litter from the same bitch in the same year, bitches should not be bred every year every other year i think you shall find is the norm for most  breeders, and why would anyone want to breed the bitch twice a year ? thats not ethical to say the least.

i dont think the k.c would regester more than one litter from the same bitch

Yes they do unfortunately, I was browsing only yesterday and found a pending litter advertised on the website of a well known, successful shower/breeder of my breed, I did more research and found that this bitch has already had 4 previous litters, 2 of which were just 7 months apart and this litter is due just 7 months after her last.
Although I don't know if she is registered with her local council.

it's a shame on the kc as well as breeders who do this,
my boy's dam had 6 litter's his breeder breed her again after she had the litter of 2 he was in and his brother is 5 months younger than him, yes you read that right and i have the BRS TO PROVE IT.
the stud dog owner is as bad as the breeder for allowing this in my opinion

hi cocopop.this disgusts me for one, just shows you there is good and bad in all, regardless of the reasons they give for  there breeding programmes obviously this is not done for the health and benefit of the bitch.

> why would anyone want to breed the bitch twice a year ? thats not ethical to say the least.

For money usualy,as long as people will buy their pups they'll keep producing them.Unethical breeders far outnumber the ethical ones I'm afraid.

hi suepei, yes it is a shame on the k.c for allowing this they could just as easy put a stop to it, i  honestly did not think they allowed it .It would be interesting to know if it has been changed over recent years if anyone knows, as i am sure they never did allow it but i am going back a little here. so much for them improving things.

The people who breed and register pups twice a year would still breed twice a year - they'd just go back to their old way of not registering the alternate litters. It wouldn't benefit the bitches at all.

The rules have choppped and changed a bit in recent(ish) years. At one point, the KC ruled that no-one could register a litter less than 12 months apart, but there were some issues for people who had bitches whelping just a short time before the year. Rather than swapping the ruling to something like 10 months, the KC took the ruling out for unlicensed breeders.

Mind you, although there were a few publicised cases of reputable breeders who'd ended up with unregisterable litters for the sake of a week or two, I bet there were also plenty where dates were fiddled. As ever, it's the honest ones that suffer.

As has been said though, those that are that way inclined will just have unregistered litters, either pure-bred or cross-bred. Until the public are better educated and the market for selling is not there (IF that ever happens), I don't know what the answer is really.

M.

charlie72.yes i agree with that ,even in the well known show.breeder kennels as has been stated.

There can be good reason to mate on the next season if for example the previous litter was only a singleton or two pups, the bitch may ahve missed several times before, the desired sire may be getting on in year, the bitch close to the end of her breeding life etc etc, but it should not happen routinely.  Of course there are the bitches with shorter cycles so they have had a season in between but litter born 10 or 11 months after the last which is fine.

hi all thankyou for the info ,
i have rang the KC to report the incident BUT the Kc said that they only LIKE  people to register 1 litter per year , But they do register 2 litters per year per bitch as they are not a governing body,
Iam left feeling totally upset with the KC, Seems to me that its the pound signs that matter Not the welfare of the dog,
the lady who has had the pups also owns the stud dog, SHAME on both breeder and Kc ,
so in my thinking its allowed to breed a bitch for 3 years running producing 6 litters , OMG

mel1ssa, more if they start at 2 and are bred to the age of eight, disgusting.

Unfortunately the law that protects peoples right to earn money or trade openly binds the KC. You are not allowed by law to restrict in any way peoples ability to trade or earn a living, the KC could report someone who wished to register a litter if the KC knows that the person concerned is banned from keeping a dog but otherwise they can't refuse to register a litter from parents that are registered with the KC, if they did they would be guilty of restricting trade.

yes your right start at 2 and finish at 8 thats 1 litter per year for an accredited breeder, but for the everyday breeder of kc registered dogs ,they can register 2 litters per year per bitch, no wonder puppy farms are so rife,

Actually I was going to do a back to back mating with my girl, her other pup is only just 6 months old tomorrow.  I have decided against it but she is extremely fit and well and was back to normal shape when the pups were 8 weeks old! 

I've never done it in the 16 years of owning the breed and didn't breed from my girl until she was almost 3.  Not everyone does it for greed but it's not something that I would normally contemplate.  My girl only had 2 in the litter in comparison to a friends who has the same breed who had 11.

mellssa i dont think the k.c would regester more than one litter from the same bitch in the same year, bitches should not be bred every year every other year i think you shall find is the norm for most  breeders, and why would anyone want to breed the bitch twice a year ? thats not ethical to say the least.

1 year= 12 months= 365 days. I once had a litter born 363 days after the previous. Had I been a licensed breeder I would not have been able to register that litter, now it was fine. Don't forget there can be a huge difference between timescales here! Two litters within 12 months doesn't have to mean one every 6 months. For a fit and healthy bitch there should be no problem with one litter a year -not every year of course, but once, no problem. There's lots of other scenarios as well -say you had a bitch have just ONE pup.

> Unfortunately the law that protects peoples right to earn money or trade openly binds the KC. You are not allowed by law to restrict in any way peoples ability to trade or earn a living, the KC could report someone who wished to register a litter if the KC knows that the person concerned is banned from keeping a dog but otherwise they can't refuse to register a litter from parents that are registered with the KC, if they did they would be guilty of restricting trade

If someone were earning a living from breeding would they not need a licence though? In which case they would only be allowed to register one litter a year from a bitch?

> If someone were earning a living from breeding would they not need a licence though? In which case they would only be allowed to register one litter a year from a bitch?

That is true but it is not the job of the KC to licence kennels that is the job of the local council. And the job of a local council to check on the number of litters each bitch may have but how would they do that. It is also true that at times vets will advise the mating of a bitch after a failed or small litter so the whole thing is unenforceable.

So the KC have no idea who's licenced and who's not? You'd think that would be something that would be on their system if they won't allow more than one litter(from one bitch in a year) from a licenced breeder.Must be wide open to abuse.

marianneB,i personally would not breed a bitch twice in the same year and i doubt very much once a year, but i understand some of your points on being different scenarios  i was not looking at it like that in my original post  Re there only being one pup, and the bitch maybe coming to the end of her breeding days, and maybe the stud dog due to retire, but it would not be for me, however under those circumstances  the k.c could have this information from the breeders and regester under those circumstances, i know this shant stop iresponsible breeders using every season as has already been said reg 1 leave next and so on,

> i personally would not breed a bitch twice in the same year and i doubt very much once a year

I would not either because I would find it too exhausting myself, however I would worry about breeding from any bitch that was not fit and well enough to carry another litter towards the end of that year unless the first was a particularly large litter.  These things really should be within the capabilities of a fit, healthy bitch.

Because these pups have got KC papers they are being sold for 700.00 . this lady is not what i would call a proper breeder she is abusing this poor dog with 4 litters under her belt at 3 1/2 years old,, perhaps she wouldnt of done this if she wasnt allowed to register these litters so close, as they would be worth only half the money ,, staffys without papers are only worth 150.00 each

As others have said, people like that would be breeding at this frequency and quantity anyway.  I would be amazed if she actually gets £700 for a Staffie when they are so freely available.

i will be gobsmacked if she does , but apparently as their are blue that is what KC registered ones are going for

I would not either because I would find it too exhausting myself, however I would worry about breeding from any bitch that was not fit and well enough to carry another litter towards the end of that year unless the first was a particularly large litter.

Exactly -it would be terrible if a bitch was so worn out after a litter she had to rest 2 years! So yes, same here -after having ten large puppies, I DEFINITELY need a longer break LOL -at least from large breed, large litter LOL.

Opinions please.....

The Kennel Club used to have a regulation (B22d) which was removed in April 2002 "which restricted the breeding of a second litter within 12 months from the same bitch". This was removed after the KC had consultation with the veterinary profession in regards to breeders who had difficulties with bitches who had uncertian ovulation cycles etc etc.

I'm digusted with the number of people that back to back mate and that the KC allow this to happen by happily registering all the litters. I have recently come across an awful case of this and I'm so annoyed something has got to change!

I would like Regulation B22d to be bought back, it is part of the health and welfare of every pedigree dog therefore in the interest of the welfare of the bitch firstly; this should be reintroduced and everything else I could go on and on about!

How do others feel?

I think if you read the thread some opinions have already been expressed .
There is not unlimited litters allowed and their code does state

>Will agree not to breed from a dog or bitch which could be in any way harmful to the dog or  to the breed.

as well as demanding that the Welfare Act is complied with.
Beyond that I think you would be moving into the territory of not allowing people to do something that is perfectly legal as a previous poster has mentioned.

> so why can't the KC have a similar rule?

For the reasons I have given above.

Was my post so very incomprehensible?

> i personally would not breed a bitch twice in the same year and i doubt very much once a year

I would not either because I would find it too exhausting myself, however I would worry about breeding from any bitch that was not fit and well enough to carry another litter towards the end of that year unless the first was a particularly large litter.  These things really should be within the capabilities of a fit, healthy bitch.

You make it sound from your post above that you would back to back mate if it wasn't so exhausting for you, not your bitch who if was healthy enough you would consider mating her again........depending on the size of her last litter.

We have different opinions and thats what this forum is all about, I would like alot less of my breed been registered every quarter I don't like some peoples breeding practises in my breed and if there was a way of control it monitor it etc I would support it.

> who if was healthy enough you would consider mating her again

Yes, why not if she is healthy?
Overbreeding is a different issue.  The numbers are exactly the same whether the two litters fall within one year or spread over a greater length of time.  The only matter of relevence to overbreeding is the total number of puppies produced.

And thats were we differ, I wouldn't. If something happened and my bitch only had one puppy I would wait a full 12 months or longer (this is what I feel is ethical and what my breed club rules are) before I mated her again. If that meant she was over the age, then tough! She would not have another litter, my dogs are pets they come first not me who might really want another litter, however do I really NEED another litter? For me the answer is no, if it means the end of my line as I only have one bitch then so be it.

> this is what I feel is ethical

Why would it be unethical if the bitch is healthy?  Infact would it not be unethical to breed from a bitch that could not recover her health within a year in the first place?

> however do I really NEED another litter?

I don't think many people would say you could only ever have one litter out of a bitch.  You might not produce what you had hoped for.

Why would it be unethical if the bitch is healthy?

Yes I mean a healthy bitch, Isabel this is how I conduct myself as I said thats where we are different. Just because my bitch was fit and healthy and fully recovered from the litter 6 months previous would not want to make ME breed from her again on her next season.

I don't think many people would say you could only ever have one litter out of a bitch.  You might not produce what you had hoped for.

No most breeders would not, but due to choices of how often you breed and circumstances you might only have 2 litters from a bitch if you didn't produce what you had hoped for is that really a huge problem? I wouldn't have thought so, certainly not for me and you may well of kept a daughter so you could then when old enough breed from her in hope to get what you had hoped for. Most breeders have 2 or more bitches they breed from anyway so all will not be lost.

I can't really follow that.  Are you saying you think it is OK to have 2 litters or not?

my breed of dog does have large litters normally, but it went without saying that my bitch had to be fit and healthy  before any mating took place, and to  be given the all clear after her pups  were born, she was definately capable  fit and healthy  enough to have a litter the following year, but my personal opinion  for several reasons i would not want her to spend most of her life being a brood bitch to me this defeated the reason for me having the dog in the first place.

> i would not want her to spend most of her life being a brood bitch

Nor would anybody else!

I never said you should only have one litter from a bitch, I was trying to give an example of what "might" happen. A situation you might find yourself like myself who only has one bitch. 

Yes if a breeder wants to have 2 litters from a bitch fine, if they have 6 litters from a bitch (which the KC will allow) that I don't agree with, particulary in some breeds. Again my opinion.

>if they have 6 litters from a bitch (which the KC will allow) that I don't agree with, particulary in some breeds

The KC, however, is aware that its rules have to cover all breeds. That's why the lower age limit for puppies is fine for early-maturing breeds, and the upper-age limit is fine for short-lived breeds, and the limit on litters is fine for those bitches who have small litters. However the lower age limit is wrong for late-maturing breeds, the upper age limit is wrong for long-lived breeds who're still in their prime at 8 years, and the limit for litters is wrong for those whose bitches have large litters.

But it would make an impoosibly and unwieldy regulation to take all the variables into consideration; it has to be a 'one rule fits all' regulation.

i would not want her to spend most of her life being a brood bitch to me this defeated the reason for me having the dog in the first place.

Me to Molly, my dogs are pets and they do all sorts of fun stuff like drag hunting in the winter which my bitch loves, there is nothing better than spending a winter morning watching the hounds following a scent actually working, giving tongue, doing what they are bred to, it's such a joy to watch and hear. I bought her into my life as a pet not a brood who is producing every year, she gives me so much pleasure as all my dogs do and deserve's a fun life been out and about enjoying herself.

> But it would make an impossibly and unwieldy regulation to take all the variables into consideration; it has to be a 'one rule fits all' regulation.

Which is why breed clubs have specific codes of best practise/ethics to cover the individual breed over and above the KC's general code/rules.

bertbeagle, i knew i had read this somewhere and yes it would have been as long ago as 2002. i just did not realise that it had changed since, saying that i have not bred since that time so no reason for me to know of the changes.

isabel, sorry have i misread or is your reply directed soley at my dog? or intended for  dogs in general.

Generally.  None of use want our dogs to spend most of their lives as brood bitches but this is a seperate issue to how people might choose to space the litters they do have.

isabel, i would  also like to think that most dont want there bitches as brood bitches as you say everyone has a choice  re spacing there litters.

I breed Jack Russells (IKC reg ones) & i have been amazed at just how many people worldwide breed back to back litters, i know one breeder in Australia breeds her bitches every season regardless, she is not a friend, i cannot stand her ethics, one bitch is 7 years old & onto her 9th litter already. It really annoys me that KC's worldwide not just england have so little regard for a dogs welfare, licensed breeder or not i don't think anyone should be pumping out pups for the sake of it, imagine if these folks had to take back pups due to health problems, could end up with 6 pups a litter & in one year 12 pups with possible PRA, PLL or cataracts for example, wonder what they'd do then. Theres one thing i do know most who breed this way aren't doing it to improve their breed or get a show pup for themselves. I noticed in some other parts of europe they can even breed a bitch under a year old & register the litter!

> I noticed in some other parts of europe they can even breed a bitch under a year old & register the litter!

The American KC will register litters from bitches as long as they are over 8 months old,there is also no upper age limit whatsoever.The AKC also prohibits it's breed clubs from putting any restrictions on breeders whatsoever including health testing! Trying to find a responsible breeder there is not easy at all.