Hi all
I am a new breeder, and need some help and info
My small terrier bitch has had seven puppies which was completely unexpected. Should I have three put down so she can raise the other four safely?

why put 3 down? Are they ill? If they are healthy, then they should be kept alive and to feed off mum?

No all seem healthy, are not ill, but vet said she could not raise more than 4. Should I bottle feed other three?

did the vet give a reason as to why she could not nurse more then 4? If your girl is healthy and willing to nurse then i would let puppies be with her, unless there is a medical problem? Then for the puppies to survive you will need to bottle feed them .

I have a german shepherd who had a litter of twelve successfully six years ago. What about getting her to foster the others?

I have a german shepherd who had a litter of twelve successfully six years ago. What about getting her to foster the others

Then you are are not a new breeder if you have bred before.

If she is coping with all pups why the need to euthanize any.. why would your vet say such a thing

Unless there is a medical reason then why would you pts 3 healthy puppies?  They need to be monitored 24/7, to make sure they are all feeding from mum's teats at least every 2 hours.  If the mum is unable to feed them at the same time, then it would be a case of managing their feeding turns and possibly supplementing with whelpi.  Whilst Mum is feeding the puppies her food should be greatly increased.

> I have a german shepherd who had a litter of twelve successfully six years ago. What about getting her to foster the others?

I don't understand how this could work, as your GSD wouldn't have any milk, and is most likely to squash them!

> If she is coping with all pups why the need to euthanize any.. why would your vet say such a thing

I can understand the vet suggesting euthanizing all but two pups because of pet over population with an unplanned litter, this would e quite a responsible thing to do. 

Otherwise there certainly is no reason any bitch could not rear the number of pups born possibly with help if weight gain slow, but this size litter is not excessively large.

Why did you even breed your bitch?

Do you really want to put healthy pups to sleep?

People like you make me sick quite frankly.

> My small terrier bitch has had seven puppies which was completely unexpected. Should I have three put down so she can raise the other four safely?

How can you bitch have a litter unexpectedly -had she been scanned & nothing was seen ? Surely you must have noticed something before the litter was born

Depth breaths people (calm)

Now, NO you should not put down those poor, innocent,little puppies that YOU ASKED TO BE BROUGHT INTO THIS WORLD!!!!!!!! Pull you finger out get some whelpi/lactol/skinners puppy milk and assist if needs be. She has 8 nipples why cant she look after 7 on rotation? Slap your vet with a wet fish, and get a different one. Your GSD had pups 6 years ago? Does she have milk ? NO! so she cannot foster them, they are not her puppies have some sense man!

I suppose the GSD had a litter 'unexpectedly' too

What are you doing?? Trying to single handedly fill up the rescue centres??

[i]Now, NO you should not put down those poor, innocent,little puppies that YOU ASKED TO BE BROUGHT INTO THIS WORLD!!!!!!!! Pull you finger out get some whelpi/lactol/skinners puppy milk and assist if needs be. She has 8 nipples why cant she look after 7 on rotation? Slap your vet with a wet fish, and get a different one. Your GSD had pups 6 years ago? Does she have milk ? NO! so she cannot foster them, they are not her puppies have some sense man!

Well Said LouiseDDB! could not have put it better myself!

Is it the school holidays or something?

Please can we keep replies constructive and polite - if you don't feel the poster is genuine, then don't reply to the thread

Thanks

I know of a JRT who successfully reared on her own 13 puppies.  She would feed so many and then when they were finished feed the rest.  If your bitch is healthy and you give her enough food to make enough milk to rear 7 pups she should be fine.

I had to have a week old puppy put to sleep yesterday due to her not growing at all in fact she was smaller than when she was born.  She had a very traumatic birth and the vet seems to think that this was the reason for it.

This has upset me greatly and the thought of someone putting healthy puppies to sleep for no reason is awful.

Now, NO you should not put down those poor, innocent,little puppies that YOU ASKED TO BE BROUGHT INTO THIS WORLD!!!!!!!! Pull you finger out get some whelpi/lactol/skinners puppy milk and assist if needs be. She has 8 nipples why cant she look after 7 on rotation? Slap your vet with a wet fish, and get a different one. Your GSD had pups 6 years ago? Does she have milk ? NO! so she cannot foster them, they are not her puppies have some sense man!

tottally agree
well said

Hmm what if this is a person  is less experienced than we would like? What if this advice has come from the vet?I read the post to mean that it was the size of the litter that was unexpected not the litter itself surely a little sound constructive advice would be better than what has been posted so far,especially as we know others read and hopefully learn aswell as the OP.

To The OP if all the puppies and the bitch are healthy and strong then there is no reason why she should not be able to raise the full litter with supervision from you to make sure that each pup gets the chance to suckle regularly.Mum is the best at raising her pups if she is able. If she is lacking in milk then it may be necessary to bottle feed the puppies using a suitable bitch replacement milk which your vet will be able to sell you.
If however the vet made this suggestion on medical grounds then it may well be best to take advice from them.

>If however the vet made this suggestion on medical grounds then it may well be best to take advice from them.

Also it may be sensible to limit the litter size to the amount of guaranteed homes available.

> Slap your vet with a wet fish,

Well I read the post as the actual number was unexpected, not the litter itself. So if it was me, I would watch and see. If mum copes fine, brilliant. If she's struggling, then the pups may need a bit of topping up with a bottle. No need for anything drastic, plenty of small bitches have managed to rear larger than average litters. And if there aren't enough buyers lined up for as many as this, start searching now, there's a few weeks in which to find the good homes.

Orphaned litters are hand reared. if the bitch cant cope then OP should take over. When mating a dog the number of pups is something out of your control and also something you make allowances for, you also prepare for the worst and its reasonable for any breeder to expect to help out, why breed if not!. Its all part of breeding, bitches can and frequently do have larger than average litter sizes. Plus i don't think for a small terrier breed it will be too difficult to find homes for them, being as before this mating took place you should have had a waiting list of several potential owners (one can dream) and a few extra if you get time wasters or heaven forbid more puppies than you expected.

The bitch picks the size of the litter and if you can't compensate for all eventualities then DO NOT BREED

Don't extinguish life before it has chance to shine

Well - Im going to stick my head over the parapet here.

Having some of these pups euthanised now is NOT a horrific thing to do, and it is not a cruel thing to do (and if you think it is then you also think having a dog euthanised full stop is cruel!, ditto having a dog put under a GA, the DOG knows nothing regardless of the scenario there!). They dont know what is happening and it sounds as if mum has got enough to do looking after a fewer number as it is.

If there are not 7 or MORE guaranteed excellent homes waiting for these pups, then having some euthanised now is a responsible step to take.

It is not the ONLY responsible action available - but it is one of the options.

Hand raising pups is not ideal - it can be done and obviously IS done - but these puppies often grow up struggling to behave appropriately as dogs having missed out on vital learning experiences with mum. If there are not enough homes available currently for perfectly normally behaved dogs, and there are not - what makes these pups hand raised and thus at a disadvantage from the word go, any more rehomable.

I also took it that she had 7 pups (as in the number of pups unexpectedly) not the litter was unexpected.

> Well - Im going to stick my head over the parapet here.
>
> Having some of these pups euthanised now is NOT a horrific thing to do, and it is not a cruel thing to do (and if you think it is then you also think having a dog euthanised full stop is cruel!, ditto having a dog put under a GA, the DOG knows nothing regardless of the scenario there!). They dont know what is happening and it sounds as if mum has got enough to do looking after a fewer number as it is.
>
> If there are not 7 or MORE guaranteed excellent homes waiting for these pups, then having some euthanized now is a responsible step to take.
>

I'll join you, note I said the same thing.  I have personal experience of such an instance of 9 puppies born to a very young undernourished bitch homed from Bristol Dogs home after her season (yet they allowed her to get in whelp).

The Vet gave just that advice and homes were lined up for two pups within our circle of canine friends and the rest put to sleep very soon after birth.  We still regularly see the two pups who are nothing like each other or Mum (A GSD type cross), who knows what the father was, but they were like liquorice all sorts when born.

if you think it is then you also think having a dog euthanised full stop

if you told me , you had or are thinking of having a dog euthanized (full stop) for no other reason that is is breathing, then yes I would its cruel

The time to have had these pups euthanized was when the owner first suspected the pregnancy...BEFORE they were born.

>if you told me , you had or are thinking of having a dog euthanized (full stop) for no other reason that is is breathing, then yes I would its cruel

I think you're confusing cruelty (to an animal) with psychological (for the human) unpleasantness. Euthanasia is only cruel if the animal suffers in the process. It's no more cruel to have a puppy euthanased than it is an adult dog, or indeed having a litter aborted.

I don't think any regular contributor to this board would dream of "thinking of having a dog euthanized (full stop) for no other reason that is is breathing".

However, there are some people who would suggest that putting new born pups to sleep when there isn't a really good chance of finding them permanent, loving homes is far kinder than condemning them to a bad life of being passed from pillar to post, ending up unwanted in kennels or abandoned. I have to say that I have sympathy with this view and can understand why someone would make this decision - difficult though it would be.

think you're confusing cruelty (to an animal) with psychological (for the human) unpleasantness. Euthanasia is only cruel if the animal suffers in the process. It's no more cruel to have a puppy euthanased than it is an adult dog, or indeed having a litter aborted

Jeangenie  sorry, my use of the word cruel was not meant literaly towards the pups/dog , just a response to themeex  use of the word.    cruel??

, and it is not a cruel thing to do (and if you think it is then you also think having a dog euthanised full stop is cruel! 

I assume this litter has only just been born... so why on earth are a few members of this forum suggesting that it is perfectly acceptable to have some of them PTS unless good homes are lined up ? There is plenty of time to find loving homes, why resort to destroying them ? I am flabbergasted tbh. The OP has stated that the litter size was (understandably) unexpected, not the litter itself. Therefore, the litter has been planned and as such the breeder has a duty to find permanent homes for any of the puppies he/she does not plan to keep.

Put it this way, if someone came on the boards and said they have a new litter of 7 puppies and can actually only be bothered to watch over the bitch and two or three pups and can't be bothered in finding good homes for all 7 and so plans to have 4/5 PTS, are we to assume that some people on here would say, yes, that's perfectly acceptable, go ahead ?! Of course not ! Somehow I think such a person would be vilified on the spot by EVERYONE on here - and rightly so !

Edited to say : and if the mother proves not to have enough milk for all the pups, the OP needs to hand rear some of them, simple as that, not have them PTS !

I dont understand why you are saying it like these dogs are pitbulls or a difficult breed to place!!!

They are small terriers for crying out loud even if they are crossbred and or pedigree but not KC reg they would still find very good homes very easily. This cannot be justfied she has had 7 not 14/15/16 a rediclous number. The mum can cope and i dont think the pups will be week because its not too nbig a number, if she had 13 pups and a few were failing to thrive then fair enough. Sounds to me like a yoing vet that doesnt really know his **** from his elbow like so many nowadays. Im hoping that they might raise the age before they study vet med so they have had some life experiene first and past puberty. Small terriers dont cost a fortune, dont have huge vets bills, food bills and the insurance premiums are probably on comparison to a cats! Get a grip

Its rediculous to try and justify this, theemx and brainless and the rest, if you look at the facts, (its not an undernourished rescue bitch thats been caught by anything and everything) the OP has just been given some very bad advice. But my advice to the OP is to have her spayed once the litter has gone, and leave breeding to those who are clued up and actually care for the dogs produced.

>they would still find very good homes very easily

Then why are there so many terriers, including puppies, in rescue centres?

>Sounds to me like a yoing vet that doesnt really know his arse from his elbow like so many nowadays.

Sounds to me like a very sensible vet who has his feet firmly on the ground of reality, and isn't swayed by fluffy-wuffy puppikins.

> Sounds to me like a yoing vet that doesnt really know his **** from his elbow like so many nowadays.

I am frankly amazed that without clarification from the Original Poster as to the Vets reasons/rational for his/her advice you can draw this conclusion. The Irony is that it serves only to highlight your own immaturity.
   This 'villagers with Pitchforks' mentality (without gleaning the facts of the matter) does nothing for this Forum (or thread) nor your use of swearing or your signature which I cannot believe you have been allowed to continue using, given that one of the biggest complaints from new members is the 'rudeness' of others.
   The ultimate Irony is of course how pious you are given your very un-healthy history of 'breeding'!!! I have said it before and I will say it again..... Given that you yourself have been in a position of not very responsible breeding I would have thought you would know you 'catch more flies with honey than vinegar' and would strive better to assist Posters rather than chase them off with fleas in their ears (to potentially carry on)

Small terriers dont cost a fortune, dont have huge vets bills, food bills and the insurance premiums are probably on comparison to a cats! Get a grip

Terriers are not a breed for everyone and need a home where the terrier traits are understood and worked with. I have a rescue terrier who did not have the best start in life and I can honestly say that he has been the hardest to manage dog that I have ever owned. He was only 6 months old when we got him but had already learnt many bad habits which have proved very hard, and in some cases nigh on impossible, to train out. Socialisation was obviously not on the agenda for his previous owners and it has been a very long and slow process to socialise him properly and I have come to the conclusion that, despite my best efforts and huge amounts of training etc, that he will never be the easiest dog to own.

dont have huge vets bills

Terriers can cost a fortune at the vet - they may be small in size but they are just as capable and more of getting into situations where a visit to the vet is required.

and the insurance premiums are probably on comparison to a cats!
My insurance premium for my terrier is about two thirds of that for my GR so is not as cheap as one might think and I have probably paid more to my vet for my terrier than I have for my much larger dog.

Although I hate the thought of puppies having to be culled I too agree that it is far better for a pup to be PTS than spend a lifetime in and out of unsuitable homes. I have already decided that if for any reason something should happen to me and I was unable to keep my dogs then my small terrier would be PTS as I am not prepared to see him becoming a yo-yo rescue dog that goes to a home for a couple of weeks and is then returned again. I believe it would be far kinder for him to be PTS in such circumstances.

Some people see small dogs as "easier" to own than large ones and many, many terriers thus go to homes that are not suited to them.

I have heard it said on more than one occasion that if a show breeder has a breed that is not so easy to find permanent loving homes for and they have a particularly large litter, then it is not unusual for said breeder to opt to have some of that litter culled - ie PTS by a vet within a day or so of them being born. Such a breeder will justify this questionable practice by saying they are only breeding to improve their lines, add to the wider gene pool etc etc and therefore it is better to cull anything considered to be surplus to requirements, which they know they will struggle to sell.
Certainly, this is something I feel most uncomfortable with but I know it goes on. Hence perhaps, why some folk on here are happy to state that having very young pups PTS rather than persevere to find good homes is perfectly acceptable.

Oh, and if terriers are so very difficult to find homes for and many end up in rescue, perhaps NO-ONE should be breeding them ?!

Oh, and if terriers are so very difficult to find homes for and many end up in rescue, perhaps NO-ONE should be breeding them ?!

Or perhaps the responsible breeders are making sure that their dogs go to suitable homes right from the start so they don't end up in rescue and it is the puppies produced by BYBs  who end up there?

"Or perhaps the responsible breeders are making sure that their dogs go to suitable homes right from the start so they don't end up in rescue and it is the puppies produced by BYBs  who end up there?"

Absolutely agree. This is what a responsible breeder will do - as oppose to having some PTS.

This is what a responsible breeder will do - as oppose to having some PTS.
But this OP is not an experienced breeder with contacts in their breed.  That's how responsible breeders manager to find the right homes.  Someone with a pet dog and no other contacts stands little chance of finding the right homes for terriers.

Having spent a lot of time in general rescue kennels, all of the dogs there are pet bred and have been placed in homes that either weren't suitable or the new owners didn't have a responsible attitude to dog ownership.   There are just too many pet bred litters being produced for the REALLY suitable homes available and so I support the idea of not bringing unwanted pups into the world.

Or perhaps the responsible breeders are making sure that their dogs go to suitable homes right from the start so they don't end up in rescue and it is the puppies produced by BYBs  who end up there?

Or perhaps a responsible breeder will have given a little more thought to the fact that a bitch may have more puppies  than they wish them to have.

My small terrier bitch has had seven puppies which was completely unexpected. Should I have three put down so she can raise the other four safely?

It is as yet unclear as to why the vet suggested some pups should be PTS??

I'm only guessing, but I know for a fact that rearing four puppies takes less out of a bitch than raising 7 or 8. I'm speculating that the vet was putting the bitch's well-being at the top of the list (as is absolutely right).

> Some people see small dogs as "easier" to own than large ones and many, many terriers thus go to homes that are not suited to them.

My friend occasionally helps with fostering for a small local rescue.

A few years ago she had a Westie bitch who was a biter.  she had been in a home with an old lady who didn't understand terriers and looked on her white fluffy pup as a lapdog, until she couldn't cope with the bad habits she developed.

My very experienced friend who is an experienced obedience competitor and past judge used to rescue dogs, (mostly GSD and Collies) found  her very hard work.

She was homed with an older couple of whom the husband understood and could deal with her fiery nature.

Sadly this gent has died and at 8 years old she is still the same, the wife feels unable to cope with ehr alone, and sadly the rescue this time have decided she really is not homeable, and was put to sleep.

Where is the constructive adviced that was asked for in this thread, have we all been on something that we are all so irritated and ready to argue with each other is there something in the air or water ????
This question hasn't really been fully answered but the OP appears to have been either scared off without giving full facts for fear of being cyber bashed  or is sitting laughing at the commotion that has been caused.

I thought I had done that in my first post , and explained why the Vet may have suggested PTS, but it had already gotten away with us.

"I'm only guessing, but I know for a fact that rearing four puppies takes less out of a bitch than raising 7 or 8. I'm speculating that the vet was putting the bitch's well-being at the top of the list (as is absolutely right)."

Presumably, that very same vet is unaware that if a bitch has more puppies than she can cope with that there is the option to hand rear some of those puppies ?!
Having in the past bottle fed a huge litter very successfully, two hourly day and night (albeit only for a week until the mum's milk came in) I know that this is a highly viable option and preferable to having them PTS.

>Having in the past bottle fed a huge litter very successfully

At work we've also had hand-reared puppies brought in which have been very sickly and failed to thrive.

>preferable to having them PTS.

For an animal, being euthanased is no different to being anaesthetised for surgery. They don't know that for one they're supposed to wake up afterwards, and the other they aren't. The procedure, as far as they're concerned, is identical.

You are right that the flood of deeply unpleasant and unhelpful judgemental comments have made me wander if this was the right forum to seek advice and support, and I am now very worried about saying anymore, for fear of what else will be unleashed! Is there any point my in clarifying any part of my circumstances that arose in my placing the original post?

I would hope that given  some more specific information that there are posters on this forum who would give you helpful advice.
How is mum and puppies, is she feeding and cleaning them ? Are they all suckling well and do they seem quiet, happy and contented?

>Is there any point my in clarifying any part of my circumstances that arose in my placing the original post?

The more information, the clearer the picture. I for one would try to give non-judgmental advice bases on what information you give. For instance, it's not clear whether the litter itself was a surprise, or just the size of it, and why the vet suggested reducing the numbers.

Unless your GSD is having a phantom pregnancy (or has a current litter) then she wouldn't be able to foster the extra pupies.

Oh dear, dbartlett, you haven't got off on a very good footing have you?

You see, its difficult not to be judgmental when we are given facts that start "I am a new breeder".

If you are a deliberate new breeder, how is it that your "small terrier bitch has had seven puppies which was completely unexpected". What was unexpected?   The complete litter?   Or the fact that she has whelped 7 puppies?  Different scenarios there - yes? 

What reason did your vet give for suggesting euthanizing part of the litter?  Ill-health or ill-preparedness on the part of the mother?  Inconvenient for you to rear?  

You then go on to say " I  have a german shepherd who had a litter of twelve successfully six years ago" - which belies your first statement that you are a new breeder - unless of course your german shepherd had the litter before you owned her.  

You see, we do need more information before you can be given best possible advice and guidance.   

If the scenario is that unknown to you, your bitch has been pregnant and has whelped seven puppies that you were not expecting (and whose parternity must also therefore be unknown)  then I am amongst those who think that the bet course of action would be to euthanise the whole litter (as soon as possible)  - and have your little bitch spayed as soon as possible.   There are already too many unwanted puppies in rescue at the moment    Its not something I'm happy with - but in worst case scenario, I feel this would be the best solution.

If it is that the litter was planned, but is larger than anticipated, and that you will not have difficulty in finding homes for them all, then I would be looking for a foster mother that already has milk who could rear some of the litter.   If you have the time, have the experience  and support from your family, then maybe you could hand-read two or three of them.

So you see, we cannot advise you and support you without knowing all the facts.  And even when we do know all the facts, we may well criticise the way you have gone about things.