Am starting to feel very down about dogs period just so many anti's locally despite a lot of very good breeders round this area its getting beyond a joke when ya neighbours start asking for advice coz their family members have bred their poodle to x breed and do I think £750 is enough! Feck off I pay out hunderds in tests for what Joe public couldn't give a fat rats behind about just what they want NOW.  I wouldn't mind but my breed don't have any tests listed but I do them anyway because I want to know whats going on with my guys, both myself and breed partner have been in GSD's and Rotties, we know what can happen despite excellent scores for both parents so do test.

One lad on a reptile forum is there shouting his mouth off about show breeders who the hell do we think we are to tell HIM he's not allowed a long hair akita just coz he likes them!  I had my say re health issues that can be related to something as simple as coat colour and length but he's like GSD's have long coats without problems so shut ya mouth!  Told him about the Blue coat colour causing alopecia or even death despite it being a desired trait in some breeds others its a killer until the responsible breeders have worked out whats going on with them they shouldn't be bred together just because he likes the look of them.  Am expecting to see an increase of longcoats in Akita's and Rotties if he's anything to go by and a few who responded to him.

I have a litter due soon and am seriously considering giving up after that, carry on showing till my guys are past it, which at 16 1/2, 10 and 3 ain't going to be that long really eh?  There are 13 breeders in the country not exactly a over populated breed maybe next yr there will be 12 or less?

I'm sorry that so many ignorrant people are getting you down.  We can't change people like that, no matter how hard we try, no matter how many truths come up and smack them in the face.  We just have to stick by our well informed beliefs, like they stand by their silly ones.

Yes I agree with GCG
I would have loved a litter from my bitch her hips and elbows are fine  and all relevant blood teste etc done but there are things about her that I just do not want to run the risk of passing on through her puppies she is a really hard work dog and not reliable enough around other dogs for me to chance it so she,ll probably always remain an only dog,
We,ve all got to try our best to stick to our own beliefs and manage what we have got responsibility for.

I am sorry to hear you are feeling so down about things. I know exactly how you feel but, at the end of the day you are doing what is right for your breed and thank god for breeders like you. Please don't give up as it will only give anyone looking for a lovely new edition to have to go to one of these BYB instead
In my breed it seems to be the fashion to breed back to back litters at the moment and I really wish there was something I could do to change their ideas but, all the time there are pounds to be made they will carry on regardless. Its really upsetting when you know they are only breeding for money with no concern for the damage they are doing to the breed. I just keep my fingers crossed that they will give up soon and move onto some other scam !!!

Just heard a reptile show has been stopped by Anti's too AND you'll like this one I can't get my house rewired for health and safety reasons as the electrician's worried that my hognose snakes are going to hurt him!  They want an assurance that a snake that went missing a yr ago has been found and they'll be safe!  Erm excuse me if I could find it I would have done and FYO its 8 inches long as an adult weighing less than 100 gms what do you think its going to do to you?

To be fair, many people are terrified of snakes, no matter what size they are, just as some people are terrified of spiders, or even dogs.

Sorry should have said Jeangenie the guy owns Boa's which max out at about 9 ft and a couple of his workers have corns, as well as all of them having dogs, hence me being more than a tad confused about what he's pulling thru him!

Yes, that does make his attitude difficult to understand!

Don't you dare leave the way clear for the baddies.

I know what you're saying but the baddies just carry on anyway as you know its so demoralising all this mine aren't pedigree's they're crosses so are fitter and healthier than your's.

Even had it on Facebook recenlty again us pedigree 'show' folk only do it for prizes and money, what money?  If I win at a show the best I'll get is a rosette, more normally a bit of card.  I've had 1 litter in the last 4 yrs not 4 in the last year, turns out neighbours family were the same people advertising Poodle x weim and lab x poo's back in Dec so you know full well those bitches have had 2 litters each since last summer with no health testings and several thousand pounds made in time for Xmas 08 and now what a birthday or late holiday?

> my hognose snakes

Oh wow you have hognose's! I use to have two western hogs they are so cute!

> Even had it on Facebook recenlty again us pedigree 'show' folk only do it for prizes and money, what money?  If I win at a show the best I'll get is a rosette, more normally a bit of card.  I've had 1 litter in the last 4 yrs not 4 in the last year, turns out neighbours family were the same people advertising Poodle x weim and lab x poo's back in Dec so you know full well those bitches have had 2 litters each since last summer with no health testings and several thousand pounds made in time for Xmas 08 and now what a birthday or late holiday?

Yes I know exactly what you mean. A lot of people I have met over the last year all good breeders are saying much the same thing. I think they have taken a bashing which they should not have had, unlike the irresponsible breeders who richly deserve being banned from breeding. At the rate the good breeders are questioning whether to carry on or not we will only have puppy farmers and byb to get a puppy from, so please do not feel so down hearted. Right now the good breeders desparately need some very good PR, but sadly I do not think they will get it. Unlike Champdogs where we give a right to reply TV does not and so the good breeders have no comeback at all. All we can do is stand our ground, and hope for a better future. I am so sorry to hear you are feeling this way, but even sadder to know you are not alone, even I have considered giving up, which means there would no longer be any eye testing available in my area after 28 years of running sessions.

Yeah have 20 odd but again giving serious consideration to packing the herps up too.  I specialise in Western, Mexican and Tri coloured Hognose including colour morphs but am getting tired of the aggro in relation to that hobby too! 

Know what you're saying Polly about the eye testing clinic.

> Feck off I pay out hunderds in tests for what Joe public couldn't give a fat rats behind about just what they want NOW.

You know how you hate being tarred with the 'big bad breeder' tag? Well Joe public - in this particular case me - feel the same way about you assuming that because they aren't a 'breeder' like you, they are all totally ignorant. It doesn't mean that they do not know anything about dogs. Some do, some don't, just like some are good breeders and some are not. 'JP' is very often used as a very derogatory term on this board, and as in the past, I would remind you that JP buy your puppies. So perhaps you could try and differentiate somehow, because I do know exactly the type you mean

All credit to you for health testing regardless, is it these conditions that you test for epilepsy, Legg Calve Perthes Disease and MPSIIIB ?

If only the GSD was as healthy as the Schipperke, someone once said to me that they are like miniaturised GSDs, but without the health problems. She had a black GSD and a Schip, they looked great side by side

> I had my say re health issues that can be related to something as simple as coat colour and length but he's like GSD's have long coats without problems so shut ya mouth!  Told him about the Blue coat colour causing alopecia or even death despite it being a desired trait in some breeds others its a killer.

I understand where you are coming from, where people just breed colours for the sake of money and I agree with you. However I do question some of your statements, they seem a bit extreme.

Colour has a very different influence within different breeds.  I believe that, like GSDs there have been long coated Akita around for a some time, but, like the GSD, it is non-standard and is considered a fault. I am unaware of it being considered a health problem, but it isn't 'my breed interest' so bow to any superior knowledge otherwise. I do however think they look gorgeous, so if they crop up naturally in a litter and someone has a preference for them, what is the problem? I would rather see conformation issues addressed within some breeds rather than get all het up over something which is a fault, but is not unhealthy.

I am curious though, as to what health problems you believe are associated with long coated GSDs as a direct result of coat length?

I have also never heard of any dog of any breed dying because it has a coat which is a dilute colour - so could you please give me an example of this happening?

In GSD's (and this is all I can comment about) I don't agree with breeding for non standard colours for colour's sake.  However, in my opionion Long Coat GSDs are a different issue. LC GSDs were originally accepted in the German Breed standard and were then dropped. In 2010, the German SV are reinstating them, and they will have their own registry, so will again be accepted in their country of origin, and the long coat will no longer be a fault. Whilst at present the long coat is considered a fault, the plus side is that the long coated GSD's are, for the most part, mercifully spared the excessive hind-angulation of the standard coat and colour of the german showline GSD.  Coated GSD's can and do compete just as well as standard dogs in the breed in all forms of obedience, search and rescue, agility and other working disciplines.

In some breeds there are problems associated with whites, but these are different genetically from the white German Shepherd Dog. Dilute blues and livers in some breeds have a reputation for skin problems, but whether that is a breed trait in those breeds or merely a bloodline trait in those breeds is not known.

To my knowledge there are no known medical problems associated with any GSD colour or coat length.

A white dog back in the GSD showline is credited with introducing epilepsy, however, the modern showline GSD is largely built upon Canto/Quanto lines, and Canto (standard coat and colour) was a haemophiliac and died at an incredibly young age (4 I believe). There is a trend in the modern showline now to seek out the deeply pigmented black and 'red' colour. This will result in overuse of a particular line, just adding to bottlenecking of pedigrees, so the breeding behind anything can be questionable even when it is within the standard, and can be ill-advised when 'fashion' or trend dictates.

I still think that overall, we have a draconian attitude towards colour, left over from the days when without the benefit of genetics people thought paling was a sign of weakness. These colours do naturally occur within the breed. If they result in health issues in a particular breed, such as deafness etc, then of course it is a completely different situation. If they don't, then the first consideration should be health, temperament and conformation (and in the GSD working ability). 

"No good dog is a bad color" -- Max von Stephanitz
(breed founder of the German Shepherd Dog)
concerning German Shepherd coat colors

At the end of the day, if the breeding is built on bad lines, it doesn't matter whether they are standard or non-standard coat and colour, the result will still be bad breeding.

Sometimes I am so glad that my breed is just one colour, and even there -people have preferences re shade (standard says medium shades preferred). 

It really helps that we can largely take colour out of the equation and concentrate on the dog when breeding or judging, as it seems to be such a distraction in many breeds.

Unfortunately for schips blue can be fatal within the first 3 wks of life with non blue siblings going on to live a long happy healthy life hence breeders doing what they can to prevent them being produced.  Any other solid colour is fine, we have colours ranging from white to red with chocolates being produced in America by several breeders now.

The UK coloured schip owners/breeders were very generous a few yrs back in supplying hair and DNA for me to send to VetGen which helped with a coat colour DNA test so good now they can give length of coat, nose colour alsorts of information.  We've also had a DNA collection day with the Schipperke research assistant from Helsinki Uni collecting for their research into Epilepsy within the breed.  Hannes Lohi and his team have been successful in both min dachies locating and cloning the Emp2b gene in 05 and more recently the gene involved Laggatto (sp?) puppy epliepsy.  Only yesterday I sent out 10 sets of buccal swabs for DNA samples to be collected from a variety of breeds and crosses who's owners were willing to submit in a bid to find the genetics involved in the more complicated polygenic forms.

> Unfortunately for schips blue can be fatal within the first 3 wks of life

I found that blue is an acceptable colour in the USA http://www.akc.org/breeds/schipperke/color_markings.cfm

Surely no KC anywhere in the world would accept a colour if it caused death, that goes way beyond a 'health' problem. What exactly causes it's death?

You will find AKC will register all colours but don't permit the exhibiting of any colour other than Blacks unlike the UK where we can exhibit any solid colour. Believe me the American's may permit registration of non blacks but they certainly don't find them acceptable in many quarters and certainly not for exhibiting.

What causes HD or Epilepsy, Legg Perthes disease etc etc as yet no one knows.

I would however be interested in any knowledge you have as to a Test for Epilepsy and legg Perthes disease as you alluded to my being able to test for said diseases in you're original reply?

Brainless

There you go, even you have problems with colour

You are right, it is a distraction. Where colours occur naturally within a breed without causing health issues we seem to have some very odd views, which were only set by Kennel Clubs as 'preferred' colours a very long time ago, and with no apparent reason. Even then they vary from country to country. I checked out the blue colouring in Schipperke's in light of Schips statement and the AKC accept this colour. Health, temperament and conformation should in my view always outweigh colour or coat length if they don't compromise health. In fact, if these colours weren't discouraged perhaps people wouldn't have a bandwagon to jump on to make money for so called 'rarer' colours.

Variety is a wonderful thing and perhaps it would be good for many breeds to help prevent narrowing gene pools. It probably sounds like heresy but is it really? I don't know, but perhaps it's time to open our minds to change.

> You will find AKC will register all colours but don't permit the exhibiting of any colour other than Blacks unlike the UK where we can exhibit any solid colour.

So Schip, have I got this right - the UK KC finds blue an acceptable colour in the breed?
Why would that be if it is a health issue? I am somewhat confused. Yes, I can understand as in some other breeds it not being a desirable colour, but you still haven't explained what it is exactly that causes death in the blue coated puppies.

> I would however be interested in any knowledge you have as to a Test for Epilepsy and legg Perthes disease as you alluded to my being able to test for said diseases in you're original reply?

No, sorry Schip, you have misunderstood me. I was very interested to read that you said you carry out health tests that aren't a requirement for the breed. I wondered what they were and how you decided to test for them, so looked up the Schipperke Club Site and the KC site. These diseases were the only ones mentioned so I wondered if these were what you tested for. I really know very little about the breed, but joined in because I was interested in what you had said about coat colour and length being health issues, and mentioning Akitas and GSDs specifically. I am however always open to learning.

Chinablue for JP you have a very indepth knowledge of GSD lines and history.

The whole gist of my original post was how dispondant the good breeders are getting about the whole situation re show pedigree dogs. 

Again yesterday I see dogs advertised on the same reptile site with things like Hope to have dad's hipscore results back before the pups go depends on when I hit the BVA.  The mother didn't need scoring according to his vet as it was her last litter and she's 6 so not worth the bother and the father works everyday - yes love so did some of the shoot dogs that came to our woods but they still had HD when checked before breeding.  Or another with my dogs don't need BVA/KC health testing coz My vet says they're fit and healthy ergo they've been Health Checked and advertised as such!

Hi Schip
Thank you. I have a deep interest in 'my' breed, and I love to learn and am always learning from people with a greater knowledge than myself. There are many people who do have an interest and knowledge in their breed or dogs in general,  and then there are the 'others'                 

I do understand exactly where you were coming from, and it sickens me how people generally behave. I'm afraid education just won't cut it with this type, they can't and won't be told. Legislation so that puppy farmers can't operate and pet shops can't sell puppies is the only way to start - remove the option. Good lord, the vet sounds like one out of the dark ages, should be struck off IMO.

So, going back to the colour issue, what IS it about the blue colouring that can be fatal to Schips, or is it the bad breeding behind it causing health issues?

So Sorry to hear that yet another good dog breeder who does everything right and by the book and has nothing but the intrests of the breed and their dogs at heart has been put off by the so many ignoramus people who thinks its ok to just get a dog without doing any research or anything at all

Being a Stafford owner I can see why people lose faith as I own 2 of one of the most misunderstood breeds around, nearly every other day you hear people say as they walk past ''That aint as big as a Pit' or 'That bitch would do well with my dog, is she up for mating?' This coming from a specky teenager who is holding a lab on his leash and doesnt have the first idea about mating , testing or pedigree!!! Grrrrrr!!!

I have lost all faith in dog walkers after twice I asked a people if their dogs were safe so I could let my boy stafford off to have a play with theirs as they were wanting to have a little play together and all looked fine (He was 6 months and learning at the time my boy)  both said 'of course you can, he's so friendly' as soon as his lead was off their dogs were on him, dominating him, trying to roll him, I snapped him back on leash and walked away before I did something I regretted but not before giving both a piece of my mind~!!!!
Twice in a row that happened and now I have a nervous stafford who needs resocialising in training classes which we have booked for next month, but if he were to retaliate from learning past expierances who would be too blame even if it was the other dogs fault?? I wonder!
So I  personally definitly dont trust when people say their dogs are safe as hardly anyone knows what a trained or socialised dog is anymore

Such a Shame so many good dog owners feel they dont have a place anymore