Have a friend who is losing puppies by the hr aged 8 - 14 wks, 2 litters both had their first and 2nd vaccines 10 days ago first died within 4 days last 3 are still at vets in a bid to save them.

Its all very supicious as this is the 2nd time in a yr this has happend, the vets said Parvo so she steamed her land house etc, didn't introduce any new animals for the recommended 6mths so no friends visiting with their dogs and everyone parvoside spray in and out.  No problems during this time so vets given the go ahead to breed again to maintain her lines and yes everythings gone well with both litters until last wk post vaccinations.

Some are dying within 12 hrs of first symptom, they are testing positive for Parvo but to my mind they should do if they've been vaccinated - maybe wrong on that?  The vets are treating as Parvo and alleging the new F strain for which there is no vacine is responsible BUT they don't smell of Parvo!  I know from when parvo first started back in the 70's you know a dog had it by the smell you didn't need a vet to do any tests, you could smell it in a house or even the park.  This breeder has OCD so is very very clean any toilet duties are cleaned up and disinfectant down straight away, dogs feet are washed etc all as a result of the last episode.

These pups have no fever, no smell, sudden onset vomiting, followed by dire-rear then death with a lot of pain and blood passed once they've died not thick tar like loss as you see with parvo more like when cut and huge amounts.  I am suspicious of poisoning as her neighbours are horrific people, she's brought some land from the council and tried to block it off as neigbhours use it as a car park illegally, she has been threatend, her home broken into, her workers harassed attempting to put up fencing so much so no one in the area will do any work on the plot now.  The vets say no because they vomit saying rat poison is designed to stay in the system it doesn't induce vomiting - the police have now visited and spoken with the neighbours but refuse to accept a PM report from any vet but won't take a body for their own investigations! 

I am deeply concerned about my friends state of mind now that her precious dogs are dying and she feels its her fault.  Am I wrong to be supicious re poisoning or are the vets right with the F strain Parvo diagnosis?

> The vets say no because they vomit saying rat poison is designed to stay in the system it doesn't induce vomiting

IF the puppies are being poisoned it could be by a variety of substances (maybee even something 'innocent', just poisonous to dogs - plants, houshold cleaners, anti-freeze....), I don't understand why a vet would say it's not poisoning, simply because RAT poison doesn't produce those symptoms.

>the police have now visited and spoken with the neighbours but refuse to accept a PM report from any vet

Does that mean there are PM reports, if so what do they say?

How would the neighbours have access to poison the puppies, are the pups kept outside?

>This breeder has OCD so is very very clean any toilet duties are cleaned up and disinfectant down straight away, dogs feet are washed etc all as a result of the last episode.

I take it that the breeder is not using any cleaner or disinfectant that could be poisoning the pups atall, some chemicles may not produce immediate effects if ingested in small amounts (a dog cleaning it off its feet), but a build up of this over time may well cause problems.

Whatever the cause, how awful that the pups are dying and even more awfull that the reason can't be pinned down.

> Am I wrong to be supicious re poisoning or are the vets right with the F strain Parvo diagnosis?

Having had a quick google for poisoning symptoms, vomiting is a common sign, rat poisoning is one of the exceptions being that it produces seizures and not vomiting, so again, the vet wouldn't rule out poisoning simply giong on the fact that rat poisining does not produce vomiting.

However it seems really hard to understand how anybody would be able to poison 2 seperate litters of puppies without other dogs being poisoned, unless the puppies are housed seperate from thier mums and housed outside (unless they are housed inside, but with easy access for anybody to get in to them undedected), or that the puppies are being fed different food to thier mothers and somebody can gain access to the food.

The pups go outside to the toilet along with the adult dogs, her garden has paths at the front and her own land at the back, the land the housing trust tenants are using as a car park so lots of easy access despite her being out with the dogs, she's not out there all the time. The vets won't do a PM because the police have said we won't accept it from owners vet, they have offered the police the bodies but they've said no I'm trying to get her to get a PM done to prove it one way or another but she's numb with grief and fear I think now. 

She's cleaning with the STEAMER like mad and has done since last yrs losses because I'd already told her steam was a good way of sterlising everything without the worry of chemicals that may create new problems.  I have told her that rat poisoning generally takes a wk to start to show symptoms but as you say there are many other products out there that can do this.

These pups are 8 and 14 wks old so doing their own thing out in the garden they're reared in the house not outside in a kennel or shed or anything like that.  I would expect the adults to develop the same symptoms if they've got this new F strain of Parvo the vets are calling it, if there's not vacine available then surely adults would be just as open to it as the pups in this time frame?

> The vets won't do a PM because the police have said we won't accept it from owners vet

It shouldn't matter to the vet what the police say, if a pet owner wants a PM the vet should do a PM. I agree with you, I think a PM is definatley a good idea, hopefully it could shed more light on the cause.

I've just spoken with her and her adult son tells us he found an empty bottle of Antifreeze in the bushes last wkend but put it in the bin thinking nothing of it.  Her son in law has his own garage so they don't buy any for their own cars as he deals with all that during services and MOT's, pity he didn't tell her before as the bins went on Friday but as he says he didn't think it was anything other than neighbours being lazy.

That seems to have kicked in somewhere in her brain as she's now trying to ring the vets to get a pm and toxicology report done, for her own peace of mind she's got to do something, she needs to know one way or another as do we all.

If this is happening I wouldn't let my pups out at all.  I was going to ask what breed and what vaccination as many years ago had a problem with my small breed dying soon after being vaccinated, but feel that this may be something totally seperate.

How terrible to raise pups to 8 and 14 weeks, don't quite understand why the 14 week litter is still there, even toy breeds go at 12 weeks? What a shame the 14 week litter did not go to their homes immediately after the second vaccination, as according to your friend the first pup fell ill within 4 days after 2nd vaccinations.

When you first wrote I thought it may be a reaction to the vaccine, I know one of my pups had his booster when over 12 months and had a terrible reaction to a different vaccine previous used, he was so ill within 20 mins he needed to be carried out of the surgery and was ill all day, some pups have died re: a reaction to the vaccines, it may be possible there is something in the genetics that causes a terrible reaction, or something in the manufacturing of the vaccines, I hope that this is also being checked out by the vet.

Vets don't always get things right, not always their fault, sometimes things are not apparent at the time.

Why oh why with this worry of Parvo in the first place were the pups not in an enclosed area, your friend has gone to all this trouble months in advance yet not made an enclosed garden area that no-one or nothing else can get to. If I had had all these previous worries I would have bought or made an oudoor kennel run for these pups to play in.

I'm so very, very sorry for your friend, what a tradgedy, completley and utterly heartbreaking to raise the litters this far it is devastating, if foul play is in fact found to be used here, I hope that proof can be found and the perps made to pay for the cost of the litter including compensation, but it will be so hard to prove, the antifreeze bottle may well have had fingerprints on it, if the pups are found to have antifreeze in them it may well have been proof, otherwise she can never prove they did it.  Why just the pups though, it makes no sense. How could anyone ever hurt pups.

I will hope and pray for her that some pups will be saved, but otherwise I honestly would look to other breeders to raise her litter for her next time, does she know anyone that would be willing to help at all. Anyone in her breed club? It's the only way I would personally ever breed again, something is badly wrong here.

Its  2 holdback pups at 14 wks, sorry I didn't explain myself well this morning I couldn't believe it was happening again to be honest, won't tell you what I said to her son full grown adult knows whats happening over the land and doesn't think its important.

They are in an enclosed area adults as well non of the dogs get near the fencing, but as the police have pointed out tonight anyone can get into the garden and put anything down.  They're now checking her car as there is damage to that too, seems some new neighbours are known to police says a lot doesn't it?

She is talking of giving up on dogs and vows never to breed again,  my thoughts howcome Just the pups as I wondered earlier if its the new F strain of Parvo after all surely the adults would suffer too as they've got no immunity same with poison its all very disturbing.

Its  2 holdback pups at 14 wks, sorry I didn't explain myself well this morning I couldn't believe it was happening again to be honest, won't tell you what I said to her son full grown adult knows whats happening over the land and doesn't think its important.

They are in an enclosed area adults as well non of the dogs get near the fencing, but as the police have pointed out tonight anyone can get into the garden and put anything down.  They're now checking her car as there is damage to that too, seems some new neighbours are known to police says a lot doesn't it?

She is talking of giving up on dogs and vows never to breed again,  my thoughts howcome Just the pups as I wondered earlier if its the new F strain of Parvo after all surely the adults would suffer too as they've got no immunity same with poison its all very disturbing.

Oh dear god, i'm so very sorry for your friend.
Thing is she may find out what it was that has caused these pups to pass away, but would she ever be able to prove it was any neighbours??

Is there any way that she can improve her fencing and also place CCTV onto the premises to cover the garden area where her dogs go.
Its all a bit strange that the pups have suffered but not the dogs, but then pups aren't as strong as adults in fighting many different things.
Not heard of this new strain of Parvo, which i'll be reading up on now.

Do really hope she finds out what it is and that the pups which have survived continue to do so and flourish.
My thoughts are with her at what must be a very tough time and tell her not to give up, there is fight left in her yet!!!