The other night my son took our dogs for a 2am stroll and came across what he called a staffie... no collar or owner, running free lucky no trouble ensued with my lot. It was not a friendly greeting as even my tinkerbell did not wag her tail. I was at the time intrigued on where this dog has come from.
Then yesterday driving up my avenue I saw a young girl of about 9 with a big long legged gray staffie type had a mastiff head on him?. She had a loose rope lead on him and he was yanking the lead so hard was dragging her into the road, the mother came out and stopped this from happening. About 5 minutes later when i was upstairs all my dogs started barking so I looked outside and saw this dog charging about off lead up and down our road. After that he had hold of the young girls sock or boot tugging her while she was lying on the ground, again the mum came out to get the dog off and indoors but the dog just ran around the parked cars...

This dog does not look like any pedigree staffordshire I have met before, but whatever it is- it all looks like major trouble, he is only a young dog by looks of his silly ways & they have not an ounce of control.

> a big long legged gray staffie type had a mastiff head on him?.

There appears to be an influx of "mastiff cross staffie" pups for sale on internet sites. I do not know what sort of mastiff (English/Neo/DDB etc.), but whatever it is it makes me shudder. There is no way people are suddenly deciding that huge mastiff dogs would be better and more suited to family life, being bred with the much more lively and 'reactive' SBT, giving a suprise (you never know what the pups temperment will be) temperment. Disgusting

Labs and St Bernards are on the top ten list of attacks on humans with a deadly end in Germany.

I have been reading all your views on children with dogs etc, I have a daughter that has been bought up with dogs all her life, when she was born i had a border collie, that dog never in all the 15 years she was alive barr her teeth, growl or even go for my daughter, why? because from an early age my doughter was tought never to tease or torment dogs, but to stroke them and to be kind.  I know have three bullmastiffs, my boy is 56KG my sister has four children who were under four, my sister looked after my dog for a week, i can tell you know my sister left him alone with the children, when the baby cried who was only a month old he used to tell my sister he was crying, the three older children dressed him up as sparticus from lazy town, he just sat there and let them do it, but ill tell you something any strangers that came to her house he would round up the children and guard them with his life, no one would hurt them kids if he was there.  My dogs are socialised with children, dogs and other people, I thinl i have made my point here!!

This has been a very interesting discussion and there has been lots of common sense spoken.  However I am not sure where you are arguing from emogenebull.  I have a wsd who is very reactive - yes she came from working stock and although I thought I knew what I was taking on - I really didn't.  I have two grandchildren one who is nearly 5 and has learnt the hard way that dogs should be treated with respect.  My wsd will snap or show her teeth when she feels threatened - she is that sort of dog.  Now both dog and child get on together.  I believe my granddaughter has learnt respect for all dogs.  However my 2 year old grandson hasn't a clue and won't leave my dog alone.  Yes he will learn eventually but I can't turn my back on either of them.   The dog I can handle but child is not ready to understand yet.  If you have had a dog that has been good with your children then you are lucky.  I have to protect my dog from the children - I can't blame her for feeling afraid of their unpredictability.  Going back to points made before - I have taken on a dog from working stock - she does need to work - hence I do agility with her.  Yet I do know other people who have had dogs from working stock that are calmer and more biddable - which is why I thought that I was clever enough to go out there to find one. 

9 times out of 10 our dogs that are used to our children will be perfectly fine, but it should not be relied upon as both animals and children are unpredictable and either could do something to hurt the other. 

A dog reacting could mean a scarred child and a dead dog.  Yes I am feel it more likely my dogs need protecting from children so they never need/feel the need to react negatively towards a child.

I have had both a very reactive dog who couldn't cope with children, especially other peoples for long, but because I could read her and made provision for her being able to get away when it was too much she was the most wonderful dog with my children, especially my daughter whose shadow she was,a and was never a problem with my son when he was Born until her death when he was just a year old.

My current breed are much less reactive around children and in fact seem to have a natural affinity and are much less bouncy around them or older people, but again even though I have had them around toddlers upwards I would never put them in a position of having to make their own minds up about a perceived threat from a child.

Now my children are grown up I still do have to stop my current dogs from sitting on little people to ensure a fuss

Hi emogenebull

> My dogs are socialised with children, dogs and other people, I thinl i have made my point here!!

TBH I don't believe the points you've made come across as remotely sensible ones.  Leaving a dog, ANY dog, alone with a child is at best foolhardy.  To leave a giant breed outwith it's usual environment with four young children - one a NEWBORN BABY - beggars belief!  Thank God nothing happened but believe me it was more due to luck than anything else.   My dogs are reasonably used to children but only ever under supervision.  I wouldn't consider for a second leaving any one of them unattended with one or more child and NEVER with a baby.  A baby, especially a very young one, crying could set off prey instinct or confuse/frighten the dog into thinking it should despatch it from it's misery.

I believe ALL dogs should be well socialised, ALL children should be taught to respect them and ALL adults show basic common sense and 100% control in supervising them together at ALL times - family dog or not.
Teri

Hi teri, sorry you feel that way, i have always trained all my dogs in obeidence and agility, my dogs are calm, especially around children, i always teach children whether they are my own or not to treat a dog with respect, my dogs arnt snappy they have never barred their teeth or ever gone for anyone, i take it you dont know much about bullmastiffs either, they are family dogs and they like being around the whole family.  I am lucky that none of my dogs show aggression to people but i put that down to that they are well socialised.  If for one miniute i didnt trust my dogs i would not have them around children, where i had my boy from she had six children and that was one of the reasons i had him, plus i carried on the socialisation, all i was trying to get across is that socialisation with children and people and to teach children to respect animals whether it be a dog or cat.  My dogs also live with two cats and a rabbit and they have never shown any agression to them either!

The point is though that you should never take it for granted that nothing bad will happen when children and dogs are left unsupervised.

I can trust any of my dogs, but I wouldn't' put them in the position of having to test that trust.

I have had dogs with my kids, the oldest from 14 months and the younger one from birth.

Hi emogenebull

> sorry you feel that way

please don't be - I stand by it unequivocally

> i take it you dont know much about bullmastiffs either, they are family dogs and they like being around the whole family

As it happens I know them very well having started off my showing career around 20 years ago with friends who owned them, Akitas and Rottweilers.  My early dogs grew up with them and I regularly had them at my home.  We've kept in touch with many Bullmastiff owners and breeders over the years at shows, ringcraft etc. meeting up regularly.  It's a breed I admire although wouldn't own one because I prefer to own dogs which don't outweigh me (going to have to 'go large' soon then LOL)

I don't believe any dog can be 100% predictable in every circumstance - no matter how well trained my POV is that we should not take chances or leaps of faith on the basis that nothing worrying has ever happened before.  Perhaps the situation has simply not yet arisen which will make the dog behave differently?  Very possible IMO and because of that not worth taking chances.

'Family' dogs are more often the ones we read about having mauled - and recently killed - children.  With those horrific facts in mind I will maintain my view, regardless of breed and level of training.
regards, Teri

..............and someone always has to come along to spoil a sensible discussion...........*sigh*

> I don't believe any dog can be 100% predictable in every circumstance - no matter how well trained my POV is that we should not take chances or leaps of faith on the basis that nothing worrying has ever happened before

100% agree. My dog is a big softy, he loves my kids and is great with all kids we meet, but he is a dog (a flipping huge one at that) as a dog he has no way of letting anybody know he is not comfortable with a situation, beyond his very subtle body-language, other than to react as a dog can = running away/growling/snapping/biting, so I would NEVER trust him 100% around kids (or anybody for that matter), it really isn't worth the risk despite the fact he has NEVER shown any sign of being uncomfortable around man nor beast!

> Perhaps the situation has simply not yet arisen which will make the dog behave differently?  Very possible IMO and because of that not worth taking chances.

Exactly!! I think this is a point far too many dog owner miss. What if the dog is having a bad day - head ache/toothache other pain they can't let us know about, this will make them defensive (I know it makes me some what volatile when I've had a raging tooth ache), that's not to mention a situation happening which the dog has not been in before so has not had the opportunity to be taught how to react other than instinctively (child falling on dog etc...).

Also, both of my boys have been brought up with dogs and know not to tease them etc.. but there is just something about my youngest (10yr old) that makes dogs excited, he's very high-energy, he doesn't have to touch my dog to be able to wind him up into a OTT playfull state, he just has to enter the room & talk, just the same with my sisters boxer bitch or most dogs he meets. If he can excite dogs like this without meaning too, I'm sure there are plenty of kids that make a dog feel threatened without meaning too, and only when it's too late would it be apparent if the dog isn't strictly supervised around kids.

A much more sensible approach mastifflover and safer all round!
Teri

Yes I am sorry I shouldn't have risen to the point.  It was a very good discussion and it was thought provoking too coming from people well experienced with terrier type dogs.  There were points made there that I had and would never have thought of.   You can't bundle all dogs together and make generalisations.  The difference between owning a Setter and a working sheep dog is huge.  (my experience)

~This is a useful read with some good advice on why "dangerous dogs" happen:

http://www.apbc.org.uk/node/361

Lindsay
x

joining this thread a bit late but thought I would share my experiences so far...... my little one is just coming up 6 months.

My dogs are very laid back with her, Alf is a real mummys boy and likes to be involved with baby which means he will sit next to her chair whilst feeding and will often give her his paw (not always a good thing with such a big dog but he isnt being malicious) Fagan on the other hand has always been indifferent to her but the other week whilst I was sat reading Champdogs ( ) I looked up to see little one had managed to scoot on her back over to Fagan, she had hold of his tail and he was lying their quite calmly with his paw on her head!!  She is even more mobile now rolling across the room, a couple of days ago she had Fagans tail again but was pulling the feathering and he let out a little moan, it wasnt a growl he does like to talk, of course I took her away from him, yesterday she rolled onto his bed and he got up and moved to another bed across the room. 

I have let the baby grab at the dogs from an early age, I feel that they need to get used to her now ready for when she is more mobile and is likely to grab at them unexpectedly.  In her door bouncer a while ago she had hold of Alfs eyebrow pulling it towards her and he just stood there bless him (im sure he was thinking "any attention is good attention" )  - jowls are another one she likes to grab !  I ALWAYS praise the dogs when she has hold of them and obviously when she is older she will be taught to leave them alone.  They have their own room where they can go for some peace and quiet which will always be a child free zone.

I do have VERY laid back dogs though, and I know my dogs very well. If I had a very reactive dogs I would go about it all totally different.  I wouldnt leave my baby alone with the dogs (other than to pop into the kitchen etc.)  as ive been typing she has rolled over and grabbed Fagans tail, I told him good boy and he wagged it so she let go, she has just gone over there a 2nd time and he has moved to another bed.

Well you've been damn lucky (or rather your sister's children have). I agree with many others that this is totally irresponsible on your part. You are taking risks that are insane. You would never forgive yourself if something happened - and it could in a flash. It's not even your own kids that are at risk.

I would echo the views of others in that you can never trust any dog 100% with little children/toddlers. A dog that is startled, in pain or scared, has only three options, to freeze, to run away or to defend itself with an attack. We can bombproof a dog for all we are worth but there could still be that one-off moment when they get a fright or are in pain and they turn on the nearest thing and bite. Dogs cannot reason, they do not think through their actions, they react to events moment by moment. Moreover by teaching your kids to pull dogs about there is a risk that while out and about they do it to a dog that is not used to that behavior, with disastrous consequences. After all, toddlers can't reason either, so, for them, all dogs are there to be pulled about.

Your dogs sound fantastic, well trained and laid back. That's great. But why push the situation?

It is for the reasons cited above that I get so furious with people who have their dog offlead on the basis that the dog is so well trained it will never leave their side. Sorry, you can never be sure.

i own 2 docile daft labradors! i woud never never leave any child alone with them though...its stupid and foolhardy!
it takes a second for a nice calm situation to change..
please put your children or anyoneelses  ahead of any feelings you have for your dogs they are irreplaceable!

Also you are protecting your dog from the consequences (being put to sleep) too.

I think the problem is that people see a powerfull dog (not just bull-breeds, the look of my Mastiff makes people think he will eat thier dogs up  ) and automatically think that power=out of control dog. I do agree that the bigger/more powerfull a dog is then the more potential for it to cause serious harm IF it were to bite, BUT I do not believe that these dogs are more likely to bite in the first place. I am sure my Mastiff has a much longer fuse than many (if not most) other breeds that are considered not dangerous, add that to the fact he is trained, socialised and I am always aware of 'what if' and quite frankly he is probably safer to be in the company of than a 'softer' breed.

I completely agree with you - IRRESPONSIBLE OWNERS make for a dangerous dog, nomatter the breed.

Thank you for wording that just Right, i'd have gone all round the houses with it , but you summed it up nice,
I totally agree with you i have same thing when i take my Big boy out the path ahead clears of people and some make stupid remarks like ("he'll eat you for breakfast") this from the women holding her little dog in her arms thats grawling  snarling and yapping at my boy,
, but i must say i also have the same reaction from some people when i have my bullys out silly peope who think their pit bulls , shame on them by bullys are much better looking than a pit

i woud never never leave any child alone with them though...its stupid and foolhardy!


Agree with  this 100%, even tho my dogs are as soppy as can be, and love kids, i still wouldnt want to chance Any child being left alone with them its just not worth the risk,

their was a women in the vets the other week with a baby in pram who pushed her babys kicking legs straight into my dogs face then told me (when i looked shocked and pulled my boy away)
that its ok as her baby was used to dogs she wont hurt him she rolls around the floor at home with their own dog ,
well thats up to her and i make no judgment on what she does at home with her own dog,
but this is my big Rottie who she has Never meet before this day and i personal cant for the life of me understand why Anyone would put their babys pram straight in the face of an unknown dog let alone a large Rottweiler that you have never meet before, some people have no sense at all,

>Moreover by teaching your kids to pull dogs about there is a risk that while out and about they do it to a dog that is not used to that behavior, with disastrous consequences

I dont think you can "teach" a 6 month old anything which is why im trying to bombproof my dogs, yes there is always the chance that if in pain they may bite but as I said, I know my dogs, even when in pain the most my eldest does is hold onto my arm very gently with his mouth if I am doing anything to him.  Im not teaching her to pull them about, when she sits on my lap I try to show her how to stroke them, but of course she is very young at the moment so instantly grabs. 

Any toddler can run up to a strange dog and grab it whether they have dogs at home or not - its up to the parents to make sure that doesnt happen.

I dont trust my dogs 100% but at the same time they need to all learn to get along, im not going to shut my dogs away from the baby or take one of the other with me every time I pop out of the room.  I dont believe I push the situation, the dogs always have an escape route and I believe they need to learn that they may get grabbed at from time to time, the same as they have learnt that the cat may dig his claws in when curled up asleep on them - they dont bite him and I know from experience that hurts

>It doesn't help that many in the show world for example bait their terriers, whether bull breed or not, against one another before going in the ring - does it?

Absolute tosh.  

DerbyMerc

I've witnessed it many times across many breeds.  Absolute fact sadly.  Hopefully now a drastically reduced practice but nevertheless still evident.  The fact that responsible owners / exhibitors /breeders and judges find it unacceptable is wonderful but not all do.

I totally agree mastifflover, when I was little my Dad always said to me you can never trust a dog 100% because you don't always  know if he's in pain, having a bad day etc. and always stressed how important it was not to startle them in any way, I grew up with dogs so although I heard him I always kind of thought that the dogs I knew would never hurt me (the way kids do). I learnt the hard way though when I was about 14 and I bent down over my stepfathers elderly sleeping terrier to stroke him, he had such a fright he jumped up and bit my face and it was only that my brother was there it didn't end with my cheek being ripped off. It turned out Sam had an ear infection so added to me being a bit foolish a dog that was rock steady just lost it for a moment. 

For some reason I can't read page 1 and 2 of this debate so forgive me if I talk at cross purposes or repeat what people have said.

Any dog, if not recognised for what it was bred for and the characteristic traits, is a menace in the wrong hands.

My SIL has a greyhound. Some years ago she brought her greyhound to my house. My cat, who never made an appearance when visitors came in, made an appearance! Yep....greyhound gave chase...caught and gripped cat....shook him...then dropped. My cat was badly injured but recovered. I had not one iota of anger to the dog. She did what she was bred to do...chased a small animal. However, my SIL's reaction annoyed me. She blamed my cat and refused to acknowledge her dog was capable of harming another animal. I advised either lead exercise in public or muzzles. She ignored. One year later the dog gave chase to a yorkshire terrier in the park and killed her. Who was to blame? My SIL of course - for not recognising what the dog was bred to do.

I get quite annoyed at people who deny their dog was ever bred for aggression when, in some breeds, that's exactly what they were bred for. If you fail to recognise your dogs purpose, you're in for a whole heap of trouble IMO.

I have collies and recognise they are an intelligent herding breed with a need for work. People who don't recognise this can end up with a destructive, neurotic, nipping, car chasing, destructive and unhappy animal. Hence the reason collie breeds are one of the most common in rescue.

Don't deny what your dog was bred to do. Acknowledge and respect this.

Just my humble opinion
xx