hi guys im new here

unfortunately cropping and docking of dobermans is illegal in the uk, i do not agree with this i feel let down by my country.

has anyone got any advice on how i can go about getting a pup with croped ears and docked tail.

thanx for the reply's

James

importing from USA/Europe (though more Euro countires are banning both) at over 10 months for Pet Passport, or doing 6 months quarantine, a very expensive thing to do just for the look. 

Hi mrbond,

My I ask why you disagree with this law? Maybe the law is there due to vets understanding the concept of unnesscessary suffering on the pups? IMO It is mutilation of a young pup, to go through a procedure to surgically remove parts of a pet dog! Is it to make your doberman look menacing and macho?

Dobermans are majestic noble looking creatures enough, without resorting to having them altered for what reason is this to the dogs benefit?
Why don't you think of having cosmetic surgery first... book yourself in for a new nose and chin then put an animal through it..

How can you feel let down by your country when ear cropping has been illegal here for around 100 years?

James,

Stop for a moment and consider your dog's wellbeing. A dog that is allowed to keep the tools of communication that nature has endowed him with is likely to fare better with other dogs. Dobermann's are meant to have a tail and fully functional ears. Why deprive them of these essential tools in order to satisfy a human fad ?

You should also know that since ear cropping has long been illegal that very few are experienced in the operation, there are fewer and fewer vets prpeared to do it in countries where it is still legal (I would hope you would not find one on these shores who'd even countenance it) and so you'd probably end up with a botched job and much pain for your dog.

By the way, why is it so important to you?

I am gobsmacked at the OP, why would you want to put a puppy through being cropped? what purpose does it have here in the UK i for one am glad its banned, ok it took a while to get use to tails on them but i think they look fab now and as nature intended them to be, and Yes they are still fit for purpose it doesn't stop mine running for hours over the fields just cause they have a tail, i have 2 Dobermanns with tails and Yes we spell it with 2 N's here in the UK and 2 without and i get so many comments on how nice they look with them.

Does having cropped ears and a docked tail mean they 'guard' any better No, i certainly hope you never get your hands on such a fine dog.

Sorry everyone i am so mad at his ignorance

i actually couldn't believe my eyes when i read this post. i don't like to ever sound harsh to people on the forum but i'm so disgusted that someone would want to do this to a dogs ears and for what reason other than it looks good to them.
personally i think it looks awful and would advice you to re think before putting a poor dog through this.

> Sorry everyone i am so mad at his ignorance

No apology needed.

oh great another docking topic!

As said in another post, cropping has been banned for a long long time so you'd have to import a dog over. If you can put up with beautiful natural ears, you could try Southern Ireland for a docked pup.

To be honest, i find it odd looking at a docked puppy now, i think i quite like tails.......especially the gentle tap against the wall when i walk through the door which then turns into a great whacking sound the closer i get to the dogs, its my welcome home music! ha ha

Trip, trap, trip, trap.

yes, P, I think you are right! :D

I just drove to my horses thinking your such a twit for even giving this post the time of day it must of been a total wind up to get people to bite and i took the bait big time, but course you say Dobermann to me and my ears prick up so i have some excuse, i ant really a twit lol

this op is a wind up.

I must say that I love the look of cropped and docked dogs but I would never put a pup through its ears being cut off and bound for months on end just to get this look. I really wish that the look of cropped ears and docked tails was naturally occuring, with the later there are bobtails and tailess genes appearing in certain breeds or that can be introduced to other breeds with success(remember bobtail boxers anyone?). I know also there are natuarally occuring erect ears in all different lengths (bar complete removal as in the Neo mastiff). I don't think it would be that hard to introduce a breeding plan where the look of cropped ears could be introduced to occur naturally, that would be my wish :D 
To the OP, I think the suffering that the pup has to go through (not regards to the docking, as I am pro-docking) but the cropping of ears does not justify the end result at all. Appreciate a dog on its temperament and not on its looks, afterall would you rather a good looking dog that's nasty or a not so good looking dog thats got perfect breed standard temperament, bearing in mind you are going to share your life with this animal for 12+ years?

I really can not believe that people would activley seek a dog with cropped ears.

Our spaniel is docked it serves a purpose as he is worked. Having had spaniels with full tails (that have often sustained injuries while out in the field)  in the past, it is also alot easier when grooming. Not having to detangle a long haired tail.

Cropping of a dogs ears however does not serve any purpose, only the desire of the delusional owner. IMO dogs with cropped ears look deformed and thank god this practice is banned in this country.

Agree lab007,
Just as well it is only the 007 bit you have in common! :D

A classic example are Min Pins, in the UK they have small naturally erect ears.

In the USA and Canada they crop them and many of the natural ears are large and don't go up.

This could get me flamed for saying this, but I live in a country were cropping/docking is still allowed in most provinces. 

" you'd probably end up with a botched job and much pain for your dog."

I would hope that the crops I had done on my dogs are not botched.  I think they are very well done.  Not all vets do a wonderful job on cropping and docking, but not all botch them either.  A very skilled hand can do a crop, and some are even doing it with lasers now to get a perfect line. 

I dont know, this is probably because I live in a country where the doberman (and I am not changing the spelling of how Canadians spell Doberman - with one N) but I like the look of cropped ears and docked tails.  As well as with the min pin (for which I breed and show), they are all cropped and docked as well. 

Oh, Brainless, min pins in Canada do have their ears go up naturally as well.  All my min pins in my last litter had their ears go up naturally.  Rebas were completely standing before she was cropped. 

And to get cropped ears to stand, it isnt months of racking.  Two weeks at most.  Star, had her tapes on for 2 days, Cher had hers on for 3 days, Reba never had tapes.  My aunt tapes her dobermans for about 2 weeks before they are standing. 

But I do agree, that each country has its own laws, and I am not here to say that not cropping a dog is silly.  I am just clearing up some statements made.  I do agree that now it is for cosmetic reasons only.  I do agree that if I was to move to the UK, I would have to be ok with having dogs with tails and ears, dogs that I normally see cropped and docked.  To each country, their own laws I think. 

I have been watching this thread with interest, as I first saw it before anyone replied.

I didn't post a reply, as I didn't believe it was a genuine post.

I still think this - even the OP has not come back to answer the objections.

There is another for a large boned alasatian must be male in London etc  etc   of the same vein. Sounds like trolls to me

Interesting views though especially from Canada.....

bilbobaggins, yes, think the name Mr James Bond is a clue- though I did bite, initially.

LOL on another forum I got into a bit of a debate that was getting really heated,then I realised the person had been reading my old posts and deliberatly trying to stir me up.. what a fool I felt. I fell for it  and really damaged my reputation on the forum....Why would some one do that and wow how clever!!

> " you'd probably end up with a botched job and much pain for your dog."
>

Crespin, as the UK is a country that outlaws cropping, such a procedure is not going to be carried out by a vet, hence a 'botched job', as in the poor rescue cases I've seen on the TV that have had thier ears hacked of with scissors/knifes and the wounds left to get terribly infected

> Oh, Brainless, min pins in Canada do have their ears go up naturally as well.  All my min pins in my last litter had their ears go up naturally.  Rebas were completely standing before she was cropped. 

Then why on earth crop them then.  From what you have said in the past I thought the reason for doing so was because they didn't go up????

>> Oh, Brainless, min pins in Canada do have their ears go up naturally as well.  All my min pins in my last litter had their ears go up naturally.  Rebas were completely standing before she was cropped.
>Then why on earth crop them then.  From what you have said in the past I thought the reason for doing so was because they didn't go up????

Ditto. That's what I understood from Crespin's previous posts too - that min pins' natural ears in the US and Canada were too large and floppy (because they don't breed for small, erect ears, because they crop - Catch 22) to stand erect naturally.

Seems madness to me. I have two prick eared breeds of dog, and two breeds of cats which (quite obviously but not certainly) have pricked ears -one of the dog breeds and both the cat breeds should have fairly small ears and a common problem is oversized ears. It's PERFECTLY possible to breed for the right size and shape of ears that is wanted, nobody would ever think the thought of taking a pair of scissors to the ears in case they didn't look just right. We just spend time breeding for the right attributes. So why can't Min Pins abroad do the same?!

> then I realised the person had been reading my old posts and deliberatly trying to stir me up.. what a fool I felt. I fell for it  and really damaged my reputation on the forum....Why would some one do that and wow how clever!!

Sorry I suppose I should put .....allegedly... just in case!!

Yes, some min pins ears do not go up.  Same as in the UK.  I was saying my ears go up.  And I crop because I like the look.  Without the crop, I feel they look like a Chihuahua cross, and not min pins.  I am used to the cropped look, so I choose to do it.  I was saying my min pin ears are small enough to go up.  But I choose to do a cosmetic procedure because of the look.  Just because I like the look, doesnt make me bad. 

Most people dont breed for ears in the min pins.  But with all the laws being changed, behind the breeders backs, it should start.  I was lucky in my litter to have ears small enough. 

> Crespin, as the UK is a country that outlaws cropping, such a procedure is not going to be carried out by a vet, hence a 'botched job', as in the poor rescue cases I've seen on the TV that have had thier ears hacked of with scissors/knifes and the wounds left to get terribly infected

I interpreted the post to say if he imported a dog from Canada or the US, that the ears would be botched. 

Crespin,

I probably didn't write very clearly. I did mean don't get anyone to do it over here because it is illega,l and anyone prepared to do it would probably do a botch job because it is not a mainstream procedure. I was not intending to cast a shadow over dogs that come over from countries where it is legal. Nonetheless, I know of one very recent case in the US where a vet, inexperienced in this op, did mess it up.

For what it is worth it is not an operation I agree with or would seek, but that is my opinion. I particularly dislike tail docking because I do believe it makes it harder for a dog to signal to other dogs, sometimes leading to crossed wires. I'm sure you or others will disagree, as I say, it's my view and we can agree to differ.

> Yes, some min pins ears do not go up.  Same as in the UK.  I was saying my ears go up.  And I crop because I like the look.  Without the crop, I feel they look like a Chihuahua cross, and not min pins.  I am used to the cropped look, so I choose to do it.  I was saying my min pin ears are small enough to go up.  But I choose to do a cosmetic procedure because of the look.  Just because I like the look, doesnt make me bad. 
>

It seems strange that as you breed and show your dogs to a high level you feel the need to "prove" your dogs are not  Chihuahua crosses but pedigree Min Pins with having to resort to having your dogs ears messed with? as you admit for the look alone...A real animal lover would not subject their young pups through a unnecessary operation? I take it the dogs are given a general anaesthetic for this operation? Wouldn't it be far better from the dogs point of view to decide to have dogs un-cropped and say to buyers of the breed the reasons are unnecessary or is it a necessary thing to do to win rosettes at shows?? Then ultimately the offspring from champion dogs would mean more puppies booked to sell. All leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

I dont need to prove anything, especially that my dogs are pedigree min pins and not chihuahua crosses.  I crop because I like the look.  And until I am unable to have my dogs cropped, by a law maker saying I cant, then I will continue to do the procedure.  

I resent the fact that you say I do not love animals, especially my pups and dogs, because I choose to crop and dock.  It wasnt that long ago that the UK could dock tails, and now if someone admits they like the look of a docked pup instead of one with tails they get flamed on the forum.  My pet puppies are not cropped when they leave, they are natural.  If the owners of the new pups choose to crop, I give them information on a very skilled and qualified vet who does a wonderful job. 

When cropped, the dogs are put under a general anethetic and it is done.  Normally also have puppy teeth pulled at the same time that arent coming out on their own.  Also, get the dogs tattooed.  So if I went to have the teeth done, and tattooing, they are under anesthetic already, and it doesnt take long to crop ears. 

If I was showing a natural eared min pin, yes it is harder to win.  The judges at this point are not used to seeing min pin with natural ears, and a tail.  You need a more than spectacular dog, for the judge to look past the ears not being done.  Because it is normal here to have them done.  But if I went to the UK with my top min pin (who did lots of winning, and her daughter is following in her footsteps) she would not win often because she has cropped ears.  (BTW I know I cant show a cropped min pin in the UK, just using it as an example.  The example being the judges over there are not used to seeing a cropped min pin, and therefor it would look abnormal in the ring, and it would be very hard to win with one). 

Crespin
What age are the pups when they are taken for their ears to be cropped?
Don't worry I'm not going to flame you, it's just for my understanding, thankyou for putting me straight on the length of time that there ears are bound, I think we in the UK rely to much on what we read
I understand your point of view but I don't agree with it. As for saying that you are not a real animal lover, i think that is a bit of a low blow because of your choices. I personally think cropping is not necessary but I don't doubt for one minute that you make sure that pain is limited to a minimum. If she didn't love animals, why would she pay a lot of money to have the ear's professionally cropped at the meantime having tatooing and teeth pulled thus limiting the animals exposure to the GA? she could have easily cut them with scissor's with out GA if she didn't care about the pain and suffering of her animals!!!

Hi James,

I prefer docked & cropped Dobermann's. My new pup is docked although his ears aren't cropped. I was going to consider the option of importing which is quite an expensive route. You're looking around 4-5grand & you won't get the pup until 9-10mths. Personally it wasn't an option for me as I believe the first few months of a pup's life are critical. Usually pups that are waiting to be exported are kennel dogs, & don't have much socialisation at all. I also met a cropped & docked Dobe a few months ago - he was a fantastic looking dog but he didn't have the temperament to back it up, & with a breed with such a fierce reputation I don't think it's worth it. At least with a pup you can ensure he receives correct socialisation & training.

I do know of a breeder who has available a 10mth male cropped & docked Dobe. I can pass on details if you like. PM me.

What age are the pups when they are taken for their ears to be cropped?

In Min Pins, you can have ears done up to a year of age.  Dobes, Danes, Boxers, (basically your bigger dogs that do not have naturally standing ears) are done quite early, at 8 weeks of age. 

I usually take them to have ears done at around 5 months of age.  They are also given pain medication which limits the pain they experience after surgery.  They come home with foam glued to the ears to also help them train to stand. Foam lasts a couple days.  Also, at around 5 months of age, the heads are basically what they are going to be as adults, and you know what "type" of crop you want on the head based on size, head shape, etc. 

My pet pups, are tattooed young, at around 12-16 weeks of age, but they are not cropped.