I'm hoping the every resourceful CD'ers can help me out on this one.  I had an incident on xmas eve with my rott boy that has now got me thinking about self control - more to the point whether he has any!  I don't want to go into the incident but examples of behaviour where this may be an issue are things like counter surfing, jumping up, climbing on furniture, lunging at other dogs, mouthing when excited, grumbling at strangers/other dogs etc.

My question is around whether these are fully trainable issues or if there is an element of the dog wanting to not do the behaviour IYKWIM.  For example I have trained my rott boy not to counter surf and to sit down when people are petting him but I'm sure given the opportunity he would counter surf if I wasn't in the room and would happily greet people upright or on 2 legs if I didn't correct him, would jump up if I didn't restrain him etc etc.  Should I always restrain him from jumping up at people or should he be allowed to develop some self control but we might have some mishaps along the way.

I'm using my rott as an example as he is only 13 months but 7 stone and at last measurement 27" at shoulder so although he is still young he is a big brute if he jumps up, gives an unwanted paw etc.  If my staffy gives an unwanted paw it is barely noticeable so although it may be irritating it isn't dangerous.  I'm sure the answer would be clear to me if someone else was asking the question but I'm a bit unsure as it is all shades of grey for me at the minute rather than black and white.

Thanks for any responses.  Theories and personal experiences welcome as I am sure I would learn lots if this turned into a debate.

I know with my adult that when he was around the same age as your Rottie he became very what i call in my words defiant!! Typical teen type behaviour.

I sent him packing back to obedience classes and we worked hard on them.  He still has his moments as he is a very dominant dog, but all in all he is doing so much better since we went back to obedience and we worked through to our Gold award. We even pop back into the lessons every now and then to put him through his paces.

If you can going back to the basics of obedience in classes and also in the house - he knows what he can and can't do, its just reminding him who is boss here.

Thats what i think anyway and that is what i would do to start with to see if there is any improvement.
Others may or may not agree with me on that.

i believe it is up to us to teach the right behaviour we want from our dogs. most dogs will jump up and maybe nip people when young as they get excited but over time they learn from us what we will or will not allow. like children they learn by watching correct behaviour and also learn self control like us as we get older and can control our excitement more easily.
any of this behaviour in my house is not allowed, i want my dogs to be calm around people and not jumping up and sitting on my furniture but i also want them to be able to get excited when we're out on walks or playing in the garden. it's a case of teaching them when it's ok to be silly and when you expect them to be calm.
good training classes have been a great help to me and my dogs even now their older,as they get to socialize with other dogs and be around  different people.
i know a lot of my friends who don't have dogs hate it if they jump up, so this is something i want allow and i also ask anyone who comes to my house to ignore the dogs when they first arrive until the dogs are calm. this way they know if they want attention they must behave in a certain way and also they don't pester everyone who comes to see me.
  

I think it's a bit of both, they need to be taight what we want from them and we can help instill self control but maturity also brings self control. Maturity does not teach the dog anything though so if it has never been taught to NOT jump up, any self control that comes with maturuty is not going to do much.

Counter surfing - your dog is a dog and is highly likely to take any given opportunity to see what he can find to eat (I know some dogs don't do this), working on it may help but I really wouldn't be worrying about him maybe wanting to steal a roast chicken if you aint watching him

> Should I always restrain him from jumping up at people or should he be allowed to develop some self control but we might have some mishaps along the way.

What do you mean by restrain him? do you always pull him back with his lead? If so this is prbably why he isn't learning anything, he can't use self control to do a behaviour he doesn't know he should be doing. Eg. if you teach him to greet people while he is sitting (lure & reward, pre-emp it and get in there with commands before he is to OTT to listen) then as he will learn that is what he should be doing, if he is young, his self control will let him down from time to time, but when he gets a bit more self control he will know he is to control himself in that situation, if you see what I mean.

My Mastiff went through a phase of greeting people on his back legs I've worked really hard with him and bless him, he's done so well. He can do a great job of ignoring people now, but when he does get excted at the thoguth of greeting them he will sit himself down, you can see he really is putting in lots of effort to control his self, as he's getting older (he's 2 & half yrs) it's getting easier for him to do this - so there is hope BUT self control only works if the dog has been taight what to do in the first place

Oh, just read to the bottom of your post, your Rottie is only 13 months, LOL don't expect too much yet, just grin through it and keep on instillin gthe training, it will pay off in the end

I'd say acceptable t us humans behaviour is all training, acceptable levels of self control and grown up canine behaviour are learnt from peers and a case of maturity.

I consider most dogs in my breed and similar size to be puppies until two years of age, and socially mature at around 4 years of age.

I think a major problem is people expecting too much from a pup/adolescent, especially if they themselves are not putting in the work, a nd also the strange phenomenon accepting things in adult little dogs, that would not be accepted in a pup of a large breed. 

Size does not equal maturity or lack of, but that is often the attitude owners are faced with.

I agree totally with you brainless about the strange phenomenon of small dog behaviour v big dog acceptable behaviour. having a toy crossbreed and gsd I often find myself letting  little dog do stuff big dog isn't allowed as do complete strangers. If he ran up to someone I would be annoyed I had made an error with her most times everyone grins  or laugh. Same scenario with sofa sitting  yes for her no for him. I am really a bad mummy LOL
Fortunately both a quite well behaved or at least we are working on things.
To get back to the original question i would go for training first which may produce self control in an adult dog (hopefully)

> My question is around whether these are fully trainable issues or if there is an element of the dog wanting to not do the behaviour

> Should I always restrain him from jumping up at people or should he be allowed to develop some self control but we might have some mishaps along the way.

Training, repetition and consistency are key.  Firstly your dog needs to know what you want it to do in any given situation.  You need to repeat the situation/exercise often to reinforce the learning.  You should make sure not to change the rules.  Most dogs will acquire a certain amount of habitual behaviours as they get older - and enough to fool you into believing they're fully trained!!  Some of that will go out the window when faced with extreme provocation (eg roast chicken within reach, squeaky toy, excited visitors) but a few training reminders should be sufficient.

At 13 months though, your boy is likely to be testing boundaries, feeling a testosterone surge, or getting a bit over confident.  I found that in mine it also coincided with me 'taking my eye off the ball' as far as his training was concerned.  It had all gone so well I thought we were almost done.  Noooo, training shouldn't really stop

One thing to bear in mind though is that if the drive to do something far outweighs the reward for not doing it, then you'll need to work much harder.  I have one that bounces up to kiss visitors on the nose as they bend down to talk to him.  We don't get enough visitors through the door for me to be fully prepared with treats etc to help train him to stop.  I just check him instead until I'm sure my visitors have understood the 'Don't bend down to talk to him rule'.  He can't seem to help himself - he loves a full snog!!

Thanks for the replies everyone.  I have taken the feedback on board and totally agree that things that small dogs can get away with the big ones can't and also that he is essentially still a pup.  He had a few mischeivous moments as a pup but nothing malicious and has been a dream to work with. 

There is every chance that he is pushing the boundaries due to his age and I have been lulled into a false sense of security.  He is still entire as I wanted to wait until he matured but would less testosterone make a difference to him?  TBH this is a dog that has never tried to hump another dog or person so doesn't seem particularly sexually driven.

> He is still entire as I wanted to wait until he matured but would less testosterone make a difference to him?

My youngest, now 2.5, is entire and not particularly sexual BUT at a similar age to yours he seemed to have a rush of boyness (a bit like my son actually!!).  You know the thing:  characterised by a 'whatevah attitude', a dash of 'I won't if I don't have to', topped up with 'don't look at me mate'.  And, exactly like my son he seemed to be fitted with a 3 second delay - every instruction just took a bit longer to compute...

I put it down to an age thing and it wears off a lot sooner with the dog than it has with my son   I called it a testosterone surge but that needn't be related to sexual drive - just as in human boys it seems to come with some attitude and confidence changes.  Remind your boy of the house rules and stand firm on the things that matter.  Any flexibility in your rules might be taken advantage of at this time so it's a good idea to remind everyone else in the family to reinforce the messages and not to reward him for dodgy behaviour.   Whilst he goes through this stage it's worth focussing on prevention rather than correction.  If you don't want him on the sofa for instance, don't let him in the room until you can be there to correct him before he gets up.  Don't worry he'll grow out of it.  If your question relates to neutering I don't think it should ever be done at this formative stage as he might just get stuck in this adolescent period. 

Dogs a babe your post is very reassuring and sums up what he is like at the moment with other people.  He lurches between puppy 'I love everyone' attitude to the 'what you looking at' posturing.  I take on board what you say about this being a crucial time for not neutering.

My male Rottie is now 3 years old and only 6 months ago decided he was going to act abit like a 'boy'.  If my male could get away with it he would intimidate with noise and pushiness but from around the 13/14 mth age he has been consistently taught how to behave.  I find teaching them how to behave is how I get the results I want.

I do also teach my dogs self control for example, if someone comes into the house and he gets over excited then the people will turn their back on him and wait until he calms himself down...when he's quiet and sat patiently he gets a fuss.  So in theory he is learning self control in this situation.

It takes time and alot of patience but so rewarding when you see it all sink in and have a happy dog that does what he/she is told!

I find this a fascinating topic and have loads of questions but don't quite know how to phrase them!  There's been lots of good advice that I agree with re persistency and patience and awareness of immaturity, but, I still have queries [not yet able to articulate them properly] about training versus self-control as OP asked. 
I've seen loads of obedience dogs behaving like hooligans - not walking on a loose lead, barking at other dogs etc...  In the past I've taken dogs to classes and, with one dog in particular [many years ago] trained him to [to me as a pet owner] a highish standard.  He could do sendaways with direction control at a distance, sit, stand and down changes and long stays - in and out of sight, drop on sendaway - I think you get the picture. YET, I couldn't stop him from being over-protective of me.  Yes I know it was my fault and stupidity in his early years - I was young, alone and liked a dog to protect me when I took him out late at night. What I could never do was to change that when I realised what I'd done.
I still am confused re training v 'self-control' or learned behaviour.  I see many people who let their dogs walk off lead on roads, amble around in their gardens whilst dogs wander past and are calm and relaxed yet I don't seem to be able t do this.  In defense I think I tend to make things too exciting for my dogs in some ways.  I don't know. 
Any thoughts on my inadequacies would be greatly appreciated - if anyone can interpret my ramblings.
Forgot to say he was a Flat coat retriever x GSD and a fantastic dog