Well as the subject says, we've had to resort to a citronella bark collar and we will be trying it out tonight!

We've tried ignoring the barking at night time - hard when you need to be up at 5.45am to go to work or hubby comes off a late shift and that way he would learn that barking wouldn't get him any attention but that sometimes works and sometimes doesn't and is exhausting having to listen at 3am barking.

We've tried going in and putting him back to bed and telling him no in a stern voice and that hasn't worked.

We've left the radio on so he doesn't here the outside noises and that used to work and now doesn't.

We've let him have run of the flat so he doesn't feel locked in like he is in the kitchen and he just barks.

We refuse to have him in our bedroom as when you get up for the toilet, he wakes up and follows you and then won't settle back to sleep.

He has 1-1.5 hours walks a day and he plays happily in the afternoon and evening with his bones and balls etc and generally sleeps most of the evening while we are watching TV and then we put him to bed, shut the dog gate and the door to the lounge, kitchen etc and he is quiet for about a minute and then he kicks off - sometimes for a minute, sometimes 10 minutes and sometimes on and off for 2 hours which is not acceptable for us and our neighbours aswell.

The last few nights, I have slept on the sofa (I can sleep anywhere) and have left his bed in the lounge and he goes to sleep in his bed with no problems and doesn't bark at all. It is not even like he wants to sleep next to me, he is quite happy to sleep on the floor or in his bed away from the sofa but obviously I cannot spend the next 15-20 years sleeping on the sofa while hubby is asleep in the next room and it is not right that he is getting what he wants (the dog that is!).

I am not looking forward to trying this collar and they recommend it is only used when the dog barks excessively which in Indy's case is bedtime as he is on his best behaviour the rest of the day!!

Anyone used one and how effective are they?

We just don't know what to do with him as we are at the end of our tether and I am sure our neighbours are too about keeping him quite at night!

Just be aware that if the cause of your dog's barking is anxiety at being left alone, this collar will make it worse. It may stop the barking, but the dog will be more insecure.

I have tried one and it did not work, the dog just learnt to move the box around to the side of the neck so it squirted past the ear and didn't hit him. Or he barked until it was empty.

From what you have said your dog sounds as though he is suffering from seperation anxiety more than anything else. The collar you have will not work for this type of problem infact the dog will just get used to it and completely ignore any spray eventually, I would take it back it is pointless.

To fix this problem, you need to start leaving your dog out of your sight to begin with for only 5 mins at a time throughout various times of the day, after 3 days then begin to leave the dog for 10 mins at a time where he can not see you at all, then move that up to 30 mins, then an hour where you are upstairs not in his sight at all, you must not return to him at all if he begins to cry, you must not tell him off that is giving him attention all the dog wants is you, when you return to the room to be in his view again you don't even make eye contact with him, just go about your business as usual.

This is how we get a dog used to being away from us and how they learn to settle when we are out of the house or even upstairs and in your case in bed.

It may only take a week for this to work if you are consistant with it, so begin now every hour start removing yourself for 5 mins at a time.

I agree I think he does suffer from separation anxiety.

The one problem I have and it is a big problem is my neighbours!

We live in a flat and they are opposite us. When we first got Indy he was always very barky (why did we get a terrier?!) and our neighbours complained about his barking was driving them mental. With some training and him growing up his barking got better. Last July, they came knocking again advising that his barking when we go out is driving them crazy and he would be calling environmental health (we beat them to it and they advised unless he was barking all day every day then they wouldn't have a case). We then realised that they have a Jack Russell living the other side of them which we reckon was making the noise as they accused Indy of barking one afternoon when we he wasn't even at home.

Suffice to say, they are very very uptight and moany neighbours (in their late 20's) and they don't agree with him barking at any point of the day whether it be day or night. They think he should be quiet all the time which is not a dogs instinct.

I know we need to try and get something in place but with them prone to knocking on my door and complaining even after explaining to them what we are trying to do (we are not ignoring his barking we are trying to resolve it), I can't deal with them and having to try and resolve the issue. If we lived in a house then things would be different but in a flat, we have to consider our neighbours and the fact that my hubby is at work when they are at home and most likely to come knocking and complain (mainly evenings and weekends) then I am stuck! My hubby and Mum think I should just leave him to bark if we go out, I know he won't bark for long - maybe 10 mins and he has plenty of toys and water etc to keep him occupied and to be fair once I am out of the house, I don't really care if he barks but at nightime, it disturbs our sleep and probably everyone else in the complex too!

> Anyone used one and how effective are they?

I have used one.  It does not teach your dog not to bark and I've found it MUST be used only when I'm there to observe and intervene.

As a general rule I'm quite happy for my barker to tell me every time he sees something he wishes to shout at.  Cows, walkers, postman, cyclists, tractors, ducks, car doors.  OK.   I get that he would prefer these things go away.  I do not wish to stop him barking completely - it's too ingrained - but I do want to restrict him to just once or twice.  The persistant barking is a nuisance because some days every event just joins onto the next one and he'd shout for ages!!

I want mine to bark once then come and tell me what he's seen.  Left to his own devices the barking gets silly and he's too stimulated to remember to come to me.  The spray collar allows a single bark, he gets a puff (I use the unscented one) which makes him pause and look to me for a command.  If I leave my OH in charge he'll say the collar doesn't work - what he means is that he does not read the signs and act appropriately after the first bark.  In these circumstance the dog would just keep barking because no one has told him not to and he likes barking!!  I only use the collar when we are outside as I'm often further away and I need the dog to look to me for cues.  I'd never use it inside as we are generally within eye contact.  Also it's an occasional support tool not a permanent method of management.

I suppose my point is that you must take control of the training element, the collar does not work on it's own.  A barker will bark through the collar if stimulated enough.

In your scenario ignoring is best but with neighbours I can see that's difficult for you.  Your lad has learnt that you aren't consistent, and presumably something happens if he shouts long enough or loud enough?  Even negative attention is good attention for him.  Can you just give in and let him sleep in your room but in a crate?  That way he gets to see you but not follow you around.

Beware the bark of the terrier - unfortuantley breed trait is bark first, ask questions later yap, yap, yap.

Ok, start with the seperation techniques as suggested already, you need to do that! My poor friend had a terrier who was a nightmare, she had complaints from a neighbour too all the time, my solution which did work was to pop the dog in a crate when she was out, it may very well work on a night for you too and covering the crate with a throw to make it dark, being covered stops a dog being stimulated by sight and sound and helps them to settle.

It really did work for my friend. It may well be worth a try for you and will be more effective than a spray collar.

Well it is certainly worth a go and god help the wrath of our neighbours!!

We got rid of his crate about a year ago as it was taking up too much of our kitchen. My in-laws have a huge travel dog  box that he sleeps in when he goes to theirs so that would work the same I suppose and cover it with a blanket!

Well lets see what happens - I can't take many more sleepless nights!!

Hiya,

I do sympathise with you to a certain extent but really feel more for oyour dog who you have agreed has seperation problems yet you are going to use something that will punish him ofr expressing his anxiety.  He only has you in his lives and he is trying his best to communicate with you and tell you that he is feeling anxious about being on his own at night, the fact that he is calm when you sleep on the sofa with him only emphasises that is the case - really your best course of action, certainbly till you work through this anxiety is to bring him into the bedroom, have him in a crate in the bedroom and then he won;t follow you to the toilet and I'm sure after a week or so of this routine you'll find he settles well.

If you don't want him in the bedroom long term then you can put a plan in place to work through this via training and helping him feel happier on his own, rather than making him feel more anxious by something else unpleasan t hapening while he is alone in way of a scary spary that smells horrible.  If this does serve to supress the barking and it may not, and it increases the anxiety which is quite likely then you may end up with a different set of problems.

I don't mean to sound harsh as I know how difficult it can be and how tiring to have a dog that can't be left alonw without being stressed and vocalising that but that is beacuse they are upset and they can't help that, it certainly isn't fun for them.  You need to help the dog start to feel more relaxed - leaving the dog to get stressed and bark things out hasn't worked because he as far as he's concerned he's been proved right he finds being alone scarey and the more of a pickle he gets himself into the more worked up and stressed he becomes.  Take him into your bedroom and work on a plan from there, please don't use a spray collar on him.

This does sound like separation anxiety and I do think the collar could cause more anxiety.

Have you tried using a crate?
You could place the crate in your bedroom then slowly over the weeks move it to another spot until its outside the bedroom, you could carry on moving the crate away from your room until the crate is in the kitchen or front room.

Well I'm off to get the huge dog box from my in-laws today to see if that helps!

The strange thing is that if we go out during the day like when I go to work at 6.45am and hubby is in bed or when I'm already at work and hubby goes to work at 3pm, we put him in the kitchen with his bed, toys, water, radio on and dig gate shut, he doesn't bark at all. We know this because when I do it to go to work and hunt is still asleep he doesn't bark at all and also when hubby goes to work he puts Indy in the kitchen about 10 mins before leaving and he does't make a peep!

The only other time he shows signs of separation anxiety is when we are at home and we leave him on the lounge while we got into the bathroom or the bedrooms, he barks unless he follows us.

Now is that normal to suffer separation anxiety just at night and when he can't follow us around the flat but is fine when leave him to go out?

> Well I'm off to get the huge dog box from my in-laws today to see if that helps!
>

He may well be more settled in a small crate or box.

Your neighbours may not hear anything due to the noise through the day or that they may not be in.
Unless you have a video camera watching the dog all day you will not really know what is going on.

Personally I would start afresh with all training and try the crate, get a old blanket and you and your partner rub your scent over the blanket and put it in the crate this may help comfort your dog.  Dogs love routine so try doing training each day set times for walking, eating, treating and bed times. Please do not use the crate as a naughty corner, let the dog work out its a safe place so feeding, placing treats in it eg: giving a stuffed kong in the crate. Always give excitable praise by your voices normally dog loves this and will be eager to please and hopefully do what you say. I know this maybe hard in the midddle of the night but simple words like "quiet" "bed time"  when quiet has returned then give praise hopefully little one will take the hint.

I have to say I agree with karenclynes-something like Zylkene or Stressless might be worth a go as well.

Now is that normal to suffer separation anxiety just at night and when he can't follow us around the flat but is fine when leave him to go out?

It may be that it isn't seperation problems as such but that he is worried about being alone at night, something could be worrying him - and just because it isn't obvious to you doens't mean there isn't something that's very obvious to him.  Though I certainly would be tempted to leave a tape recorder on for the duration of the time you are out during the day because from what you have decribed you can't be sure he isn't barking throughout the day?

It could be that as you guys are out during the day when he spends all day alone he just really needs to be with you when you are around and doesn't feel happy being on his own again at night time - if that is the case then again if you don't want him in the bedroom with you at night long term then you are going to have to work through things in small steps.  Again I would advise taking him into the bedroom in a crate or the time being and gradually getting him used to being apart from you while you are in the house.

Westies are very social little dogs that love company and maybe he just ins't happy with spending time alone - do you both work all day?

http://www.defra.gov.uk/environment/quality/noise/research/barkingdogs/constantbarking.pdf

You may find this info is useful

Well the dog box didn't work at bedtime! He happily slept in it during the evening but when it came to bedtime he was not having it! We then decided to bring his bed into our room and place it next to the bed and low and behold he didn't bark all night! He tried to get up on the bed a few times but I got him down by saying no and he then got down and got into his bed and slept. It was a pretty restless sleep for us both but it's new to both of us so give him a couple of nights and I'm sure he'll settle down.

Need to still work on the slight separation anxiety but overall I think we have cracked it and perhaps we just needed to realise that he wants our company and as long as he settles down and sleeps then we will all be happy!

Thanks for all your advice and deterring us off using the bark collar. We are going to try and work with the separation anxiety that he has when we go to another room but apart from that, everything is good!

Hi,

Really pleased for you and him and so glad you didn't use the collar.  I'm sure he'll settle quickly after a few nights and get the idea that he needs to sleep on his bed not yours - he just wants to be near his humans is all

> the dog just learnt to move the box around to the side of the neck so it squirted past the ear and didn't hit him. Or he barked until it was empty.

Clever dog

Well our 2nd night was better!

Went to bed at 10pm and sleep at 10.30pm and he settled down fine. My husband came home from work at 1am and he woofed once and that was it and then he kept trying to scratch at the duvet so I thought he might need the toilet so took him into the kitchen where his puppy pads are and he went for a wee and a poo and then came back to bed and settled back to sleep chewing his blanket and slept until 6am this morning when me and hubby got up for work.

So far so good and he seems to love being close to us and isn't inteferring with our sleep so its all good! Lets hope it continues!

Thats lovely sounds like you are going tohave a happy doggie there. My gsd sleeps next to my bed when I go to sleep infact all my dogs have done and then moves to his spot on the top of the stairs later that way he can see everything its is guarding spot. Little one has settled in her crate scince day one on the kitchen and I think that is safer for her just incase gsd should get up too quickly and squash her when I am asleep. I am all for dogs in the bedroom but dont have the big ones on the bed

anyone that as a barking situation this is a good read from defra.just read it in the bath,thanj yo lindsay

Cheers Briedog! I thought it was useful too!

Lindsay
x

The obvious answer is get another dog to keep him company !!!

And possibly end up with two dogs barking when the owner leaves the room ...

yes but 1 got 7 barking when going out for walks.chase howling beacuse pagan in season so he as the barking collar on but no spray in it but he thinks it in there so he dosnt howl.
but say they know their routing so only bark when we come home,
at the door when someone there

> And possibly end up with two dogs barking when the owner leaves the room ...

Too true.  I have one that has learnt to bark.  He has no idea what the triggers are, and shares none of the same terrier type barking issues as his pal.  He just likes to join in and try out his deep manly woof !!

Well I am pleased to report that my little man has completely stopped barking at night since we moved him into our bedroom!

He comes into our room when we are going to bed and he chews his blanket and then he settles down to sleep. My hubby has been getting up at 5am for work and he doesn't even stir and is as good as gold until I get up and even then he is still half asleep while I get ready.

He scratches at the bed if he needs to go to the toilet but for the last 3 nights he has gone all night without going at all.

He seems to be so much more settled now and doesn't seem to hear all the noises that I think used to make him bark even though you can hear them more in our room, he seems to sleep better.

I just wish we realised that bringing him into our room would have stopped his night time barking sooner!

Absolutely brilliant news!