I am looking for breed recommendations for my twelve year old to do agility with as my breed is too large for him to handle easily. He currently borrows a collie from a friend but she is moving away soon .

My son's first choice would be another collie but I have said that i would like him to also look at other breeds before choosing.
He obviously doesn't want anything that will embarrass him in a few years, when he is out walking it, but other than that has an open mind.
Another important consideration is that I have a large boisterous breed and so I wouldn't want anything too small and delicate in the house.

Kooikerhondje?  Shape, speed and brains of a Border Collie, but slightly smaller package.  (14-16 inches).  Eager to learn, desperate to please, and boy can they run.  Fast.  My other half was a little mortified when I told him I was getting a puppy, I had a CKCS at the time, I lost my last Kooiker when I was at uni so he had never met one.  In his words they are 'a proper dog that just dont take up all the room in the lounge'.  He takes her jogging with him most weeks so she cant be that bad to be seen with!
Down side is that you will have to wait a few months for the next litter to be born, but plus side is that they are proven aces at agility.  Send me a message if you need to know more.
However, if you dont want to wait there are hundreds of collie crosses waiting for homes in rescue centres.  I'm sure you could easily find a small collie type that would suit your boy well.

there are loads of breeds that are good at agility but don't forget if you get a puppy it will be a long wait until they are old enough to do this activity.
a lot of terriers are really good, i've seen a few at my training classes and TT's can be good but of courses collies are really good but do need a lot of mental exercise.
i would of thought it's worth having a look in your local rescue centre for a dog over a year old that maybe suitable.   

what about a german spitz, they have the heart of a lion, and they can also live with big dogs, i have mine who live with border collie,akita and rottie,
and they all get on together,
if you are not that particular about a breed what about a rescue dog, have you had a look on the agilitynet rescue
page they might have something there that would be ideal for you

kelpies are fantastic dog if they come from the right person. what about considering a rescue so he can start training right away? The rescue i do a lot of work for, have countless collie types come in and as they have their own agility equipment on site they often do a bit of work with them to assess their potential as an agility dog. Worth a try.

What about a Toller??
Trying to think of a non large dogs that went to agility where i used to attend.
Keeshounds, but think they are maybe too feminine for a young lad?
What about a Cocker?

I would second German Spitz they really can turn their paw to almost anything, so ideal for junior handling. PM me if you would like more info

Have a look at the Swedish Vallhund. They make very good agility dogs, a big dog in a small body!

Not may of them working in this country,(mainly as owners tend to be older, or show orientated) but my breed compete a lot in the USA, and in fact the top agility dog all breed when the sport first started over there was a Norwegian elkhound bitch who only died a couple of years ago.

The breed is sturdy and sociable, and from experience do very well with larger breeds, mien regularly walked with 4 dobes and ran circles round them, not so fast as some on the straight but great on the twist and turn.

They a re a good size for an older child, not so highly strung so perhaps easier for a youngster to train than some of the very hyper working type breeds.

They do have a mind of their own and need to find something in an activity for them, but they do seem to have a great affinity and pal up well with kids.

To be honest most medium size breeds of a normal/moderate/natural construction would be suitable, so first find a breed he likes and will suit his personality, as they will have to work with each other for over a year before they can even start on Agility.

Gosh, what a lot of suggestions, we defiantly have a lot to think about.

My son has said he would also like to have a go at junior handling so that is something else to think about. Unfortunately as he is on a rugby tour during crufts we can't go along to discover dogs to get a look at some of the breeds suggested and will have to wait until November.

Luckily he is a practical lad and knows he will have to wait a while. He has even suggested he might have a go with one of the whookies, it should be entertaining if nothing else.

> Kooikerhondje

I was very taken with these dogs when I was researching another dog  6years ago.  I saw them at Discovering dogs but to obtain one meant bringing one in from Holland - there just weren't enough of them in this country.  The practical side of this was very off putting.  Are there more of this breed in this country now? 

Hi Ceejay

6 years ago all breeding in the UK had stopped as an unknown illness had turned up in Holland and no dog was to be bred from until everything had been mapped.  (Every dog in all countries has been VW tested at 6 weeks and patella tested before breeding for the last 30 years, even though both of these conditions are not a big problem within the breed.)  The breeding program in Europe is very open and any problem no matter how small is shared between every country.  The problem was tracked to one dog in Sweden.  As each stud is only allowed to be used 6 times in their own country and twice abroad, the offspring were quickly found and taken out of the breeing program.  (No English dog was affected.)
We have been breeding again for nearly 4 years.  As we are still a numerically small breed litters dont happen every month, last year there were 4 litters, and I know of 3 possibly 4 planned for this year.  You would have to join a list to get a puppy, but they are worth it.  With this breed I strongly recommend not importing a puppy.  We do need imports (4 were imported in 2009), but should definately be left to those experienced with the breed as a dog kept in kennels for 11 months is a challenge to bring into a family environment meeting new dogs on a daliy basis.
PM me if you want any more info on the breed, I have been involved with them for over 20 years as my family introduced them into the UK.

Koiker's are lovely but can be funny with other dogs.  I think they're great spirited little dogs.

all 4 varieties of BSD make excellent agility dogs !

Yvonne

Agreed, have to be owned by the right people.  Males can be short if brought up in kennels, or dont get the early socialisation they need when young.  Bitches are generally bomb proof.
Thinking back to the original post, a Toller may well be one of the best ways to go if you intend to show as well.  Still a very respectable dog for a male teenager to be seen with as your boy grows up!

>We do need imports (4 were imported in 2009), but should definately be left to those experienced with the breed as a dog kept in kennels for 11 months is a challenge to bring into a family environment meeting new dogs on a daliy basis.

Of course with the pet passport scheme there's no reason for a dog to be kept in kennels for months - it could live with its breeder or a guardian in a family environment while it waited the 6 months before it could enter the UK. In this way it would be as well socialised as any other dog.

Indeed, unfortunately in my breed the breeders abroad keep large kennels and the dogs dont get the 1 to 1 socialisation they need.  There are of course exceptions, and we've had a few come over from smaller breeders with excelent temperaments.  The best thing with the pet passport is bitches can be taken abroad for mating to bring in fresh blood. 

>all 4 varieties of BSD make excellent agility dogs !

this will be my next choice of agility dog (hopefully this year), I dont want a collie but want a dog that can still work up the grades (and one that I can possibly show too) an Irish setter is good fun and he is accurate but he just doesnt have the speed to get into the placings.

>

Elkhounds are great fun for kids don't get put off by Brainless's comment of > owners tend to be older, or show orientated) my teenage lads have great fun with mine, and all the kids around here love her to bits.  She also looks a bit fierce - from the front - and can appear to be a bit 'macho' with a  'Don't mess with me' look good for deterring people - if only they knew what a softie.

The breed is sturdy and sociable, and from experience do very well with larger breeds - I've read many posts on here by those with large breeds who have trouble being fear attacked - I frequently meet large dogs: Rotties, American Bulldogs and la variety of Mastiff breeds ,no problem - they're just dogs t o say 'hello' to

not so fast as some on the straight but great on the twist and turn.> Have learned more about Elkies - the twist and turn is inbuilt to avoid the hooves of Moose that they're bred to hunt - they're totally amazing in the speed and lightening reactions 'on the turn'  I've had quite a few collie crosses who would win hands down on the straight for speed but not a match on the turn.

Also agree on the points made of getting a n older rescue dog - you'll not believe how quickly your child will grow up - I'm sure the clocks are sped up when your children become teenagers!

> don't get put off by Brainless's comment of > owners tend to be older, or show orientated)

I only meant that as a reason why more owners in the breed are not competing in Agility in teh UK with their dogs, the dogs are more than up for the challenge

If he wants a collie then that seems the perfect dog.   Whatever we suggest we aren't going to come up with anything better than a collie and many of the suggestions are a lot more expensive or difficult to obtain than a collie and to be honest are a little less suited to the image of a teenage rugby player.  

I agree, collies are really the best at agility and if your son wants to be competitive then he needs a breed with the trainability and speed of a collie.  If you went for a rescue he would be able to start straight away.

What about a rough collie or a sheltie, both good at agility and good for junior handling.

> are a little less suited to the image of a teenage rugby player

Don't be fooled - my youngest  son is also a 6ft, 17 year old rugby player  - and loves nohing more than a good tackle - so does Heidi our Elkhound LOL

> If you went for a rescue he would be able to start straight away

That may be if you are lucky with a rescue.  Collies are in rescue for a reason - I had one out on trial - she was very docile in the home although very wary.  I walked her nicely - until we got to the road where she went absolutely crazy when she saw the traffic.  Staff at the dog trust didn't seem to know this and my experience of collies was nil.  Back she went.  Today I might have felt that I could do something.  6 years ago it was a big no-no.  Taking on a rescue isn't as easy as it seems.  I went for a puppy from a farm - even then I had no idea what she was going to grow into.  As it happens she is a super agility dog - 2 firsts and a second this weekend I am very proud to say.  However she hasn't been the easiest of dogs - this has taken me nearly 4 years to achieve.

ceejay > it happens she is a super agility dog - 2 firsts and a second this weekend I am very proud to say you should be proud - great achievement 

I have had rescue dogs [terrierxwhippet,collie XGSD ,collieXFlatcoat, collie x?whippetxGR]- one of which had had 5 homes before we got her at only 2 years old - loads of issues.  I haven't gone into competition with any of these [or any others] but do/have done agility and obedience exercises and training at home and occassionally at classes. 

A good rescue society - or even better a breed specific one, should be able to advise on a suitable temperament, not all are in for behavioural problems. I am not recommending a colli or any of its crosses by the way. 
Certainly, with a collie, training and mental, as well as physical, exercise will develop a dog's character and trust in humans and help divert all that nervous energy that under-utilsed working dogs can have. Collies are seen as easy trainable dogs and what people forget, and often the reason for them being in rescue, is that they are meant to work ALL day; both physically and mentally, hence people can't cope and 'get rid'.

The reason I was suggesting a rescue dog - and not necessarily a collie - is that on older pup/adolescent would be physically more able to engage in agility sooner than a 'brand new' 8-12 week pup [shouldn't do jumps etc til at least 12 months or more in case of damaging their growing skeleton].  As the OP's son is a teenager [or almost] a year of waiting can be a relatively long time.
I still think Elkhounds are great and suitable - older ones may be more difficult to get though - I don't think many re-home unless they absolutely have to as they so great - I'm not biased at all LOL

>That may be if you are lucky with a rescue

I agree, I was thinking of one from somewhere like valgrays who have experience in collies and would know whats what.

well done on your placings this weekend

Thanks both!

> good point about the age and the time needed to wait before trying to take part.  There were several youngsters taking part on Sunday too - they were doing well - they had smaller dogs.  It is nice to see younger people competing - and doing it well. 

I know some people that compete with Boxers. They enjoy it and can be pretty fast too.
There are the ABC classes too (Anything But a Collie).

Depends how competitive he wants to be re agility.

Australian Cattle Dogs seem to be getting popular in agility and as the are a KC recognised breed he'd
be able to do Junior Handling too.
However not sure of what breed traits/temperaments in this breed.

Know that even a smaller breed such as Border Terrier are pretty handy at agility.
Plus they are quite hardy.
So there's a wide spectrum.

Not sure if anyone else has mentioned as I've only flipped through the posts, but if he gets a "Medium" dog the class sizes are generally a lot smaller and he could find himself skipping up the grades, which may or may not be helpful in the long term, if he starts handling a large dog.

Winnie, my Sussex Spaniel, isn't the fastest dog in the world and probably not what you'd think of as a typical agility dog, but she is accurate and pretty reliable on most of the equipment which means we often finish high up in the placings. Last year she won an agility class and got us into Grade 2 and nearly won out of that as well with a 2nd at her next show! Now that is all well and good, and I am very proud of her, but it means any young dog I have in the future automatically has to compete at G2 and all my other dogs, which are "Large" breeds, have to compete at the higher grade.

If he is running a Collie already I'd probably stick with that breed, but if he's still learning it may be worth considering something slower and steadier, giving him time to learn all the handling and positioning techniques, which are part of agility, without the manic behaviour a lot of Collies come with.

Depends if your son is going to be a serious competitor or not, if he's serious then it has to be a collie The only breed that comes close to, and occasionally betters a collie is a kelpie. He could have lots of fun running any breed of dog, boxers, elkhounds, belgian shepherds - but you can bet a collie will win 99% of the classes he's in. Last years large agility final at crufts - 9 collies and a kelpie.

The people who mentioned small & medium breeds have a good point, you do have a better chance here with a different breed - shelties, JRTs, poodles etc

My son can continue to borrow my friends collie (Jess) until mid July or so and then the plan at the moment is to get him a dog next spring when my current youngster will be coming up for 3, so we have plenty of time to choose.

He has been doing agility for about a year, but has only started taking it more seriously in the last couple of months, so still has lots to learn. Jess and her owner had done agility before and she is now getting on a bit, although she still loves it, so she is a well trained and not the fastest dog there is, which has made life really easy for him.
I have spoken to the trainers at his agility classes and they are happy for him to have ago with our 20 month old, even though he is rather large, quite hyper and has never attempted agility before. He will probably do some one to one classes with him. I suspect that after that experience any other dog will be a relief for him.

He really does have his heart set on a collie, but knows it has to suit all of us here and fit in well with the large hairys, so we have open minds and are prepared to do lots of research.

> Not sure if anyone else has mentioned as I've only flipped through the posts, but if he gets a "Medium" dog the class sizes are generally a lot smaller and he could find himself skipping up the grades, which may or may not be helpful in the long term, if he starts handling a large dog.

This is an interesting point and certainly something we hadn't considered before.

> Depends if your son is going to be a serious competitor or not, if he's serious then it has to be a collie

My main concern at his age is that he has fun and enjoys what he is doing. Although that brings it own dilemmas
I don't want him to focus only on winning or believe that he has to win to enjoy it, but worry how he would feel if he continuously came last, especially as he is very competitive about eveything else he does.

How about a working cocker spaniel - very biddable and doing extremely well in agility.  If I wanted a medium for agility it would be what I would go for.

My son was 12 when he was interested in training up a pup. He took on an Aussie pup, trained him to gold good citz by 8 months old, tried showing but it was really all pretty little girls with toy breeds, tried obedience but it was largely middle aged women. Tried agility but the dog was too fast for him to get to grips with - too fast for me too. My son was 14 when he gave it a try and had already been taught to work a calmer dog but our Aussie just went off like a rocket and my son was too upset to try - three years later the dog isn't much easier to handle! My son did great in YKC went to crufts and did great - but in adult obedience not all judges relate well to gruff 6ft tall 13 year old boys! I think because my son worked so well he looked very experienced but was a total beginner thy expecte him to understand too much.  So it was too dificult politically to be able to fit in. But my son usually was placed and got a lot from it and loved training the dog all himself and says when he is 60 he might go back to it.

In our experience it is a great thing to become involved with but for kids stick with YKC or opens on YKC show days where judges etc.. are expecting to work with young people.  But agility has more lads - but they are still a very small minority.  My son is one of the mildest quiet polite lads you could meet and all his teachers find him a delight to teach - but I think some elderly judges are frightened of what they hear about teens and don't have a gift in working with them. If only all judges were like some of the lovely ones who post on here! One of the most lovely and understanding judges we've had posts here.

Football won in the end! The Kevin and Perry stage hit overnight - one day he was all go and keen to compete and the next day! lol. But he looks back fondly at three years of very happy dog training memories.

I was going to say before I read Tenaj's post ...have you considered an Australian Shepherd?    Very fast, very quick to learn .....very eager to please - they do need early socialisation but they are wonderful dogs!!  Like Tenaj, I too found them too fast for me in the show ring - but a younger teenager would have great fun!

Loki is now 10 years old - she is an absolute madcap - now known as Madam Madness!   I've had to stop her and Dyssi (12 month old lab) "hare boxing" at least 8 times today!  Thor (His Thorship!) is now 12 and suffers from Auto-immune - but is still an absolute treasure!

The trouble with an Aussie as we know Margot, is that it can be high drive depending on the lines and they do NEED an owner who will be very firm but fair..
Early socialisation is a must, and definitely not the dog for the first time dog owner...

I have a 4 year old bitch and a 2 year old dog coming into rescue this weekend... from someone who 'thought it was a good idea to get one and have a litter' !!

Gabrielle x

>> I have a 4 year old bitch and a 2 year old dog coming into rescue this weekend... from someone who 'thought it was a good idea to get one and have a litter' !!
>
>

Oh no!

From bitter experience I now know how important it is to research the OLDER part of the pedigree - going back 10/12 generations - to see what lines are behind these wonderful dogs!  A "hard herding line" which was/is extremely important in the US when moving great herds of cattle to stockyards is somewhat superfluous in the SE of England  in a suburban setting!

Hi.

oooh fantastic! Aussie chat!!!!  :D

I don't think they make humans who are fast enough to run an Aussie! lol. What you need in agility is distance control rather then physical human fast legs!  Preferably a deaf human! lol.

Great dogs but I'm glad I batted my head against a wall with training up a farm collie as my first dog before moving onto Aussies!  I'm having a little rest and getting an angelic little bc pup this year before getting my next Aussie! lol.

And my Aussie girl would have been perfect for my son/a teen to run and he gained some YKC first with her ( but only at a fun show and because the kids were able to carry sausages! ) But she was mine and I wasn't going to give her to him! I've put a lot of work into that girl! lol.

A "hard herding line" which was/is extremely important in the US when moving great herds of cattle to stockyards is somewhat superfluous in the SE of England  in a suburban setting!

How do you know which is which?  I've read loads and I still wouldn't know what lines to be looking for. It is difficult to get folks to disguss lines openly. I kind of have some of my own opinions now... but it's always great to hear more!

pm me if you like.

> A "hard herding line" which was/is extremely important in the US when moving great herds of cattle to stockyards is somewhat superfluous in the SE of England  in a suburban setting!

Fortunately we have swapped joggers for pheasants now we are in Norfolk - they have the advantage of escaping to the trees  Can second the recommendation for Aussies and agility Tara loved agilty and when she damaged her paw was very happy to do it on three legs Just a pity that we don't do it any more

Daisy

Jan, if you struggle with the lines and pedigrees, you can always PM me... I have a fair idea now of what produces what...
There are some lines I couldn't live with, lines I wouldn't want to live with and lines that I would love to live with

Hope Rusty is ok ?

Gabrielle x

Thanks - Rusty is doing well - been fine - so far so good.

That is really good to hear...
Keeping all fingers and paws crossed for him !!

Am here if you need anything...
Gabrielle x

We spent a lot of time looking at the gundog breeds as my son wanted to become involved with the dogs and our breed would have been too quick for him at the time.  We finally settled on a Toller, we wanted a dog to show, and to do obedience and agility with, but mainly to have fun with.  We have not been disapointed at all, his little bitch has helped him to qualify for junior handling at Crufts this year, his first year of showing and he has just started to train her for agility this winter.  Most of all he loves her to bits, and the feeling is reciprocated!

> We finally settled on a Toller, we wanted a dog to show, and to do obedience and agility with, but mainly to have fun with

Excellent choice.

Only one problem with this breed - they're addictive

(I have 3....)

yes, we are definately smitten.  I was secretly hoping that he would get bored and she would become mine!!  No chance at the moment!

> I am looking for breed recommendations for my twelve year old to do agility with

Just thought, it may be wise to choose a breed in the same group as your main breed as if your showing being on different days can be a pain not to mention expensive.

> Just thought, it may be wise to choose a breed in the same group as your main breed as if your showing being on different days can be a pain not to mention expensive.

Thanks brainless, very good advice. Different days, particularly if they are not consecutive, could present a problem.

Unfortunately it doesn't really help narrow down the possibilities, as my breed is in the pastoral group.

Ooh yes it does, Finnish Laphunds are a trainable smaller medium size dog (yes I know I am a Spitz enthusiast). 

As pointed out the Vallhunds may be short on leg, but not excesively so and are fast and a good temperament fun kind of dog with an affinity with young people.