Hi all,
I have watched this forum for sometime but never posted before. I am interested in trying clicker training with my dogs, I have never used it nor do I know anyone who does so I am trying to do some research. I think I understand the basic principle of the click=postitive reward etc but I dont think I know enough to start using it yet. (also have to buy a clicker!) Can any of you recommend any good books or sites to read on this? I was considering buying a book on it but there are so many around that I want to be sure its the right one.
Thank you!

Here's a couple of sites to start you off:
http://www.clickersolutions.com/
http://www.clickertraining.com/
The easiest way though would be if you could go on a course to learn the basics as it's so much easier to learn when you are shown how, rather than just reading about it.

I agree, find out if your local dog club has a clicker class, you have to remember that what you click is what you get. When I first started I thought I was teaching my dog to put stuff in a box but what I had actually done is train him to stand in a box and drop items randomly due to me clicking at the wrong time so I had to start that one all over again.

I was introduced to clicker training in a class - it's far easier to understand what and when in a real situation, and with help.  A second pair of eyes and ears is very useful too

However I found that reading after the event improved my understanding of exactly what I was trying to achieve and why clicking it was so effective.  Clicker Training for Dogs by Karen Pryor.  I got my copy from Freecycle but secondhand copies are quite easy to come by.

I used this type of clicker attached to a wrist loop.  I found this was the easiest for me to manage.  Nearly a year after getting our Gold KC award, my dog will still do a few 'show-off' tricks when I put it on, before taking me to the fridge for some ham!  I must teach him some new things...

> However I found that reading after the event improved my understanding of exactly what I was trying to achieve and why clicking it was so effective. Clicker Training for Dogs by Karen Pryor I got my copy from Freecycle but secondhand copies are quite easy to come by.

Agreed - I bought the clicker, and that book, before getting my dog - and found it quite easy to understand & follow with only a basic previous idea of what clicker training was all about. Within a fortnight - just learning from that book - my pup could sit, down, give paw, and give whichever paw you asked for... and his clicker-trained housetraining was coming on a real treat.

> I used this type of clicker attached to a wrist loop.

A button clicker! I've been trying to get one for ages but can't shop online unfortunately. Fingers crossed I'll get to Crufts this year. I would love one, as it frees up both hands to teach all manner of things - the clicker can be pressed under your arm, knee or foot or probably under your chin if necessary!

>before taking me to the fridge for some ham!

Never underestimate the Magic of Ham

the clicker can be pressed under your arm, knee or foot or probably under your chin if necessary!

Or you just use a clicker word -I can't be doing with fiddly clickers myself, I'd need 3 hands.

Karen Pryor's other book 'dont shoot the dog' was recommened to me to help understand positve reinforcement and how its been used with training all animals not just dogs. Got the book for xmas so havn't read it all yet but apparently it could work on the kids!!!

I don't clicker train everything but I do use it and really like the whole idea behind it, though I tend to use a "yes" instead of a clicker now.  I started with Karen Pryor's Clicker Training for Dogs book, already recommended.  It's very easy to understand.  I do think if you have a clicker course near you it would be worthwhile going on it.  I do know a few people who just cannot grasp the concept of clicker training and find it completely impossible to use.  You may find you're one of them! Hopefully not though.
I love using it with young pups, it's soooooo easy to lead train a 6+ week pup with a clicker.
Also have a look on [url=]www.clickertraining.com[/url]- there are some good articles, in the Library section I think.

Any Karen Pryor books are a good place to start - I love clickers!!

we clicker trained our pug, would recommend it to anyone. I looked up a training class on the KC website,we passed our bronze last year and do still click to keep in with it. Good luck

> we clicker trained our pug, would recommend it to anyone. I looked up a training class on the KC website,we passed our bronze last year and do still click to keep in with it.

Yes I started clicker training just from knowing about it and getting the basic Karen Pryor book (and a clicker of course)... Even though the training classes I went to DID NOT do clicker training they respected the fact I did.... well the better one did, the one I left in disgust didn't, but that's another tale....

Long story short, we found a better class and 3 wks later my dog took tests & passed both Bronze and Silver on the same day! just before his 1st birthday, and later we did all the training for Gold, but didn't take the test as his nuts migrated to his brain...lol

Lol! That happened to my dog, he's coming nice again now

> Yes I started clicker training just from knowing about it

Should have typed: "just from hearing about it"..... meaning, you can learn enough from Karen Pryor's basic book to DO it as a complete novice.
The nuts were removed but the attitude stayed, sadly - that does happen sometimes.

Thanks everybody! I read through some of those links last night, really interesting but made my brain hurt after a while! I think it could be useful for me as basically I talk too much to my dogs and have come to the conclusion that the reason they are so slow in responding sometimes is because they don't actually have a clue what I'm saying. They pick up mostly on hand signals.
  Another question, If you are trying to improve a command the dog already (kind of) knows, like down, would you use a new command if starting from scratch or use the command they've already heard but obviously don't really understand?  I've tried to train it by drawing them down to the ground with treats from a sit, this seems to results in dogs that expect me to kneel and pat the ground before they'll drop. I think I failed somewhere there! What I want is an instant drop on verbal command without passing through sit first. I may be asking a lot from labradors but I know they can move fast when they want . I've always used sit primarily and they do do that and various other things  (like agility G3) but with 'obedience' commands the response tends to be a bit slow and unsure.

thanks

Another question, If you are trying to improve a command the dog already (kind of) knows, like down, would you use a new command if starting from scratch or use the command they've already heard but obviously don't really understand?

Start from scratch. Usually with clicker training you do NOT use any command until the dog understands what to do. I.e. you lure the dog into the down position, and click. Repeat it until he knows it really well, then you can start using the word "down" as you do it. The thing with clicker trained dogs is, they learn to think for themselves. Show them what to do a few times and eventually you need do nothing as the dog will start to offer the behaviour to get the click and reward. Then when it drops into a down you can say "down" and click.

Sorry just had to jump in here with a word of caution

> Show them what to do a few times and eventually you need do nothing as the dog will start to offer the behaviour to get the click and reward.

Beware training too many things at once or your dog may go through its whole repertoire to try and get a treat!  I've visions of mine going through sit>down>stand.paw>roll-over> etc etc to get a piece of cheese or chicken or some such - really quite hilarious to watch though pretty frustrating for the dog "What on earth do I have to do to get a treat?????

I've visions of mine going through sit>down>stand.paw>roll-over> etc etc to get a piece of cheese or chicken or some such - really quite hilarious to watch though pretty frustrating for the dog "What on earth do I have to do to get a treat?????

It's not frustrating for the dog if you are clear enough with your information - clicker training allows more easily for exercises to be broken down into small steps because it is so easy to mark tiny things with the clicker (all training should be done this way) until the dog understands the behaviour and when the behaviour is understood it is then put on cue, uit is much more frustrating for the dog to be learning something new with us waffling on saying a word that it has no idea what the meaning of is and we ususally say it as a precursor to what we expect.  So for instance we often when teaching down say down (while the dog is standing) and then lure it down, given that dogs learn by association it is no wander that dogs get confused about which action is down as we've said the word 'down' while they've been standing .  When they have associated the word with the behaviour then we can start to use the owrd as a promt for the behaviour but not until it is fully understood. 

Then the behaviour whould be should be generalised and got under stimulus control.  If the dog is getting frustrated during clicker training then you need to go back a step and make it easier for your dog to get it right so that you can click and treat them building up to the behaviour you want in small increments.

It really is best to go and see it done and get some guidance on it because if it isn't fully understood then it could get frustrating for the dog, as does a any training wher the dog doesn't get the required information

Hi Karenclynes  my previous post was a bit 'tongue in cheek' Not meant as a totally serious caution - just a [to me] funny tale of my dogs doing various actions in order to get a treat - especially after a training session.  Yes I still do training with both of my even though my eldest is 13 years old - she likes it.  They do get sort of clever -  performing anything that may get them a treat.  As clicker training develops and commands are learned [re-enforced] treats are reduced to say, every other time an action is done or every 3rd or 4th time; so, my dogs will perform other actions to try to get a treat if one doesn't work - especially if it's chicken or cheese!  Dogs can be better at training us than we them at times.

Clicker training, or any other training that rewards natural behaviours then, and only then, gives them a 'command' as you have eg'd 'down' once the dog is down is IMHO the only way to train.

I'm not certain it is frustrating for some dogs - some love to parade everything they know in the hope of getting a click & reward and can be real show-offs; others just go overboard with enthusiasm. My dog has a 'default' action that he does when he is confused, bored, or sometimes too full of beans/enthusiastic, so when I see him offering that unprompted, I know to change tack a little. When I see him doing this I stop asking for what I was aiming for, and try him on a simple command or two he knows well, so he gets something right & gets his reward.

If you regularly do certain commands in a set order, as you would with HTM/freestyle you do find the dog anticipating you and offering unwanted actions as he's become accustomed to doing X after Y so many times before.

Whether it's frustrating or not, it's all good brain-training, so just break up any learning exercises with repeating 'known' and trusted actions, and do the same with a few well-learned and reliable commands to finish with too.... "Set the dog up to succeed" - as they say.

Hiya,

As clicker training develops and commands are learned [re-enforced] treats are reduced to say, every other time an action is done or every 3rd or 4th time; so, my dogs will perform other actions to try to get a treat if one doesn't work - especially if it's chicken or cheese!  Dogs can be better at training us than we them at times.

I was just adding that in because if someone was reading this thread to learn about CT they may have thought that it was frustrating for a dog to not be told verbally what to do when infact he opposite can be true.

There should always be a treat after every click, it shouldn't be phased while you are using the clicker.  The clicker is just for teaching new behaviours and once learnt the clicker is not needed any more.  One the dog knows the behaviour then is the time to start putting the rewards on a variable reward schedule.  However theoretically if the behaviour is well enough generalised and under proper stimulus control they should only really be performing the behaviour when asked other wise yes they are training you or getting confused about what is required but that isn't to do with the technique CT that's to do with us not gving enough info ! 

They may when learning something new occasionally throw in something that they know well if they aren't getting enough information or are confused about what is required, but that shouldn't be happening all the time as they should be being given enough info about the new behaviour not to be going through a repetoire of old behaviours.

When my girls will give me a little demo of behaviours is if I'm sat down in the evening and they want to do some training, my Dobe in particular asks to do some training by standing infront of me, doing a bow, or walking backwards or marching with her front feet - not because she's frustrated but because she wants to work - that in itself has become rewarding to her.

> some love to parade everything they know in the hope of getting a click & reward and can be real show-offs

I love this bit.  When I put the clicker on my wrist to start a proper 'let's get clever' training routine my boy often starts his speed demo of everything he can remember.  I feel it's less about him asking for a treat and more about letting me know he's ready for anything.  It's actually quite helpful to get a bit of fizz out before we start and a useful memory jogger for me to remember the things he likes doing best.  I just settle him into a position (any) to get started.

If I really don't want the hoolies I pick up the clicker without him seeing me and stick it in my pocket to get started from there.

My youngest boy (gundog) loves, and is very responsive to, clicker training - I imagine it's not like that with every dog.  I recall a Bassett Hound at training class that no incentive in the world was worth walking to heel for, and as for 'come'? ...not if he didn't want to!  His owner would just smile and persevere

> The clicker is just for teaching new behaviours and once learnt the clicker is not needed any more. 

I thought the point of a clicker was a way to immediately indicate to the dog that they've done well - quicker than a good or whatever - a kind of reward in itself and more timely, within 2/3 seconds?  I only got a clicker a couple of years ago and had already 'taught' most commands tho I do try new ones to stimulate.  Should I not be using it now then - except for new things?

> speed demo of everything he can remember

I know it so well

Ms Temeraire
Very useful pointers - have found myself doing things in same order at times but my girls soon catch me out!
Yes - even my 13 year old gets full of beans and shows off

Hiya,

No your right the clicker does mark the behaviour and tell him he has done the right thing.  It works like taking a picture to the dog, so it marked the behaviour and is a bridge to the reward coming so makes getting information to the quicker when they are learning.  That said when something is really learnt (and often people think their dogs really knows something when it isn't that well generalised) you don't need the clicker anymore because that precise timing isn't required anymore the dog knows it has done the right thing because it is, learnt, practised and has a good reward history so the precise timing that is needed when they learn something knew is no longer needed. 

The clicker is a teaching tool for giving the dog the required info but when they have that information, unless you want to change it you don't need that tool anymore, it's not going to do any harm generally.  However if you are using the clicker all the time and not rewarding after you click then you are devaluing the clicker.  One of the reasons the clicker works so well is because it is clear (unique noise) and is always consistent (always means the same thing) or should be - if you start changing the meaning of the clicker, in that sometimes it means a reward and sometimes it doesn't then it becomes less consistent to the dog and could lead to confusion or frustration.  Some people now have changed the way they use the clicker and seem to use it sometimes as a keep going signal but again to me this is just changing the meaning of the click and confusing the dog.

The clicker should come to mean three things to the dog:

You've done the right thing
A reward is coming
The behaviour is over

The problem I have with clicker training (from what I've read) is the frustration and confusion that the dog must feel when an action that was previously rewarded is no longer, because training an action is done in stages. For example, I was told that to train a dog to shut the door (though why you'd want to I have no idea, but that's irrelevant!) you'd first click and reward when the dog looked at the door. Then you'd stop rewarding that action, and the confused dog would have to work out, by chance actions, that you wanted him to touch the door, when you'd click and reward until he'd got that thoroughly learned and understood what was wanted. But then, once again, you'd stop rewarding that - it would no longer be the right action, and the puzzled dog would try all sorts until he accidentally pushed the door - when once again he'd be rewarded ...

Surely at each interim stage the dog is confused and frustrated because he thought he'd learned a Good Thing and now it was no longer wanted. A lack of consistency like this could surely easily cause a dog to shut down and not bother? It certainly would me!

Thanks karenclynes - very clear explanation

> Surely at each interim stage the dog is confused and frustrated because he thought he'd learned a Good Thing and now it was no longer wanted. A lack of consistency like this could surely easily cause a dog to shut down and not bother? It certainly would me!

When you have a willing pupil, the opposite is true.
The only 'shutdown' you get (which isn't at all) is - as said above - the dog is puzzled and tries other things he knows. In many dogs like mine, a kind of default action, which when you see him try that you know he is confused... but still very willing to play the game!

In fact you get the opposite of Shut-down, if there is such a thing - they "Open-up" to coin a new phrase.... And Open-up is when the dog starts offering actions - often one in particular - he has already learned off -pat, in an effort to get things right! It's the polar opposite of shut-down in fact.... Doggy is still engaged & offering behaviours. He still wants to play! oh definitely..... but he's not sure what the new rules are. I see that deafult action as a huge sign he is still keen and trying hard... It's ME who's not being clear. (Hence when that happens take him through some commands he already knows, so he doesn't think he's failed, and try again maybe with a slightly different approach).

If you ever get shutdown in clicker training, then something is really fundamentally not right, and that's not usually the dog's fault.
Moral of the story... training failure in a motivated clicker dog is your fault, not his.

>In many dogs like mine, a kind of default action, which when you see him try that you know he is confused... but still very willing to play the game!

I'm used to dogs who think differently - you throw a ball once, they bring it back. You throw it again, they ignore it because you obviously don't want it or you wouldn't have thrown it away again ... too clever by half!

> I'm used to dogs who think differently - you throw a ball once, they bring it back. You throw it again, they ignore it because you obviously don't want it or you wouldn't have thrown it away again ... too clever by half!

Ummm..... I will admit retrieving has never been my lad's strong point! LOL But there have been a few things I have tried to teach where he has thrown his hands in the air:

1st time once the penny has dropped: Oh yeah, I got it.
2nd time: Again? I will do it again cos I'm not sure you believe me I got it the 1st time.
3rd time: What? Again? Are you thick or something? Told you I got the idea...And I proved it! You're insulting me. I want to learn something new now....

Confess.... Whose dogs do this too?

The problem I have with clicker training (from what I've read) is the frustration and confusion that the dog must feel when an action that was previously rewarded is no longer, because training an action is done in stages.

No there is no frustration and confusion -the dog will just have to think for itself and work out what will make the click appear. (To me, a click is the word Good, I don't use a clicker.) They actually love it. Also if a dog doesn't get the exact action you want at once, you don't just wait and let it go on and on, as then some dogs will give up. Instead you click the tiniest step in the right direction, to encourage and show what you mean. I don't know if everyone does the same, but my trainer does it so that when the dog has understood what is meant, or really tried hard, it gets a BIG reward, something it values far more than just one treat. It can be a game with a favourite toy, or running around chasing after several treats, anything it loves.  It's wonderful to see how dogs learn to think instead of just giving up.

I've told the story many a time before, but if you take two of my Malinois bitches as an example, they illustrate the difference in training methods very well. Take a treat and stand in front of Ripley and Rio and say and do nothing. Both will sit, assuming that will get them the treat -as most dogs do. If that doesn't work, Ripley will give up and go and lay down in her bed, thinking the treat wasn't meant for her so it's pointless hanging around. Rio, however, will try a show stand, or a down, or will look for something to retrieve and bring back to me, anything to get the click and the treat. She's by far the happier of the two because she is OPTIMISTIC. She doesn't give up and she has fun trying. Whereas Ripley will be all defeated. Rio was clicker trained, Ripley not.

The fact that it IS all done in stages removes the frustration, because everything can be broken into tiny pieces so you can do it at whatever speed the dog gets it at. With traditional training it's just repeat, repeat, repeat the entire thing, far harder for the dog to get and very boring. Using a retrieve as an example, the traditional (or old fashioned) way would be to throw the retrieve object for the dog to fetch, hope it picks it up, encourage it to bring it back, then to sit in front of you and hand it over when told to. All in one go. When with clicker training first you'd teach the dog to pick the object up, then to run after it, then to come back etc etc. Much less confusion when you can mark each stage, and a far better chance of getting each bit just right. And many more rewards!

I'm used to dogs who think differently - you throw a ball once, they bring it back. You throw it again, they ignore it because you obviously don't want it or you wouldn't have thrown it away again ... too clever by half!

No, that's not being clever. That's not getting the rewards. Why work if they don't get paid? If the action of retrieving isn't reward enough, as it isn't for all dogs and it gets boring after a while, you have to vary what you do, step it up a bit, also vary the rewards.

Hi, No problem Heidi2006

The fact that it IS all done in stages removes the frustration, because everything can be broken into tiny pieces so you can do it at whatever speed the dog gets it at. With traditional training it's just repeat, repeat, repeat the entire thing, far harder for the dog to get and very boring. Using a retrieve as an example, the traditional (or old fashioned) way would be to throw the retrieve object for the dog to fetch, hope it picks it up, encourage it to bring it back, then to sit in front of you and hand it over when told to. All in one go. When with clicker training first you'd teach the dog to pick the object up, then to run after it, then to come back etc etc. Much less confusion when you can mark each stage, and a far better chance of getting each bit just right. And many more rewards!

Hiya,

Absolutely with the above, I have never had a shut down dog in clicker class - well I have to start with because of previous training methods used, but always end up with dogs wagging and dragging their owners in to get to class because they love it, because as well as being rewarding they are finally avle to communicate better with their people (or their people with them).

Jeangenie, Given that you say all training should be broken down into steps regardless of the type of training which is true, why should adding in a clear marker system add any confusion or frustration.  For example if you are building up a stay without the clicker, and you are trying to lengthen the stay you stop rewarding what the dog was being rewarded for before just the same as you do in clicker training, you don't keep rewarding the dog for it staying in one place for 10 seconds while you are 10 paces away other wise you would never get any further.

A retieve is easily taught to dogs that don't naturally retrieve with the clicker, I have managed get a pretty enthusiastic retrieve (not formal, just for fun) out of two dogs of the same breed that are renouned for not being into toys and having a very low boredom threashold for repeating exercises just by breaking it down in to stages and marking the correct responses and making it rewarding.  It isn't rewarding enough for your guys to do the retrieve so they do it once and can't be bothered again.  Dong's who are clicker trained become very independant thinkers and offer behaviours more readily because they are confident in doing so and kow that it's worth their while to try stuff, beause of that it is brilliant at building confidence.  Especially for dogs that have previously been used to physically being told what to do or modelled into position and are foten worried by doing something wrong so don't try stuff - seeing them get the idea that they can control the click and get rewarded for trying stuff is just fab!

Dogs/animals genrally (they don't use it to clicker train hyenas in zoos to have their blood taken because it causes frustrated aniumals) respond to this well because of it's clarity and reward value, you don't just throw them in at the deep end, you build up so that they understand what it is and clicker training makes the trainers more aware of the importance of breaking exercises down into small parts and rewarding enough.  As for teaching them to close a door, well it ccan be very useful if you need help , assistance dogs are trained to do that kind of thing all the time, I could do with it at the mo having my right arm in a sling having dislocated my shoulder and hurt my left hand but aside from the practicalities it's doing something yo keep your dog learning which most clicker trained dogs love to do.  I have taught my girl lots of pretty useless behaviours but it really doesn't matter because she's having a blast learning them. 

I think your post just emphasises that you need to see it and be shown how to do it to appreciate how it works - I think most people before starting it wander what all the fuss is about have doubts about it or think it's a bit faddy but really it is an incredibly rewarding and bonding and clear way of training dogs.  You can almost see the light bulb going on in previously confused and frustrated dogs heads, like yeah now I get it.  Certainly not saying it's the only way to train but for me and in my experience it is the most effective.

>Using a retrieve as an example, the traditional (or old fashioned) way would be to throw the retrieve object for the dog to fetch, hope it picks it up, encourage it to bring it back, then to sit in front of you and hand it over when told to. All in one go.

No, the traditional way (as I was taught by a trainer of working gundogs) is to wait until the dog does any of the required actions of its own choice, then reward it for doing so, in the same way as you housetrain, where you wait until the pup wees, then tell it to wee ("Be busy" or whatever) while it's doing it then praise when it's finished. If the dog picks up the ball you say "Pick it up" (or whatever) then praise and reward it. It's all taught by stages because you don't necessarily want it to become a choreographed routine.

No, the traditional way (as I was taught by a trainer of working gundogs) is to wait until the dog does any of the required actions of its own choice,

LOL gundogs are BRED to retrieve -what would you do with a dog/breed that is NOT a natural retriever? That NEVER picks anything up, ever? Not even plays with toys? I have one such dog and believe me, most trainers tried to forcefully force the retrieve object into the dog's mouth, hold the mouth shut and then make the dog run backwards with you at the same time -it's no wonder dogs like that fail....

>LOL gundogs are BRED to retrieve

That's why you choose the right breed for the task; if you want a horse to win the Derby you don't choose a Suffolk Punch; if you want a vehicle to transport 6 labradors you don't choose a MG Sprite ...

>what would you do with a dog/breed that is NOT a natural retriever? That NEVER picks anything up, ever? Not even plays with toys?

Sounds just like Piglet! You don't cause them the intense distress by trying to teach something that is so unnatural to them.

That's why you choose the right breed for the task; if you want a horse to win the Derby you don't choose a Suffolk Punch; if you want a vehicle to transport 6 labradors you don't choose a MG Sprite ...

Ah but ANY breed can do obedience, and that was my task. The retrieve is only one small part of it. There is, after all, no breed originally bred for the purpose of competitive obedience. And with clicker training any dog can learn to love it. Without clicker training I don't think it's possible to get a non-natural retriever to truly enjoy it. (Like you noticed with your own dogs.) Once I started clicker training I had no more trouble getting the dogs to retrieve and LOVE doing it. You can even teach the dog to love playing with toys.

Sounds just like Piglet! You don't cause them the intense distress by trying to teach something that is so unnatural to them.

The thing is that the pepole that learn about clicker training and use it to it's full advantage usually have a better understanding of dog behaviour and are the least likely people to cause distress to a dog through training, let alone intense distress - I taught my guys to do a retrieve (whish isn't natural to them) because they have a strong chase instinct and I wanted and outlet for the chase instinct (a more appropriate one than bunnies or deer) and can assure you they now find it rewarding to do a retireve and there was no distress involved in the training as it goes against everything I believe in to cause distress to dogs in the name of training.

One of mine having had a terrible time in the past, pushed about and pinned and not used to playing with toys (because apparently there was no point in having toys about as the breed aren't into them nturally) now has so much more confidence and has found the joy in toys through clicker training - I shaped her playing with toys.  She wouldn't have played with them on her own and it wasn't natural - should I have just left it and not tried because it wasn't natural to her?  Instead I made it fun and now she doesn't need any other reward to enjoy toys, she finds them very rewarding on their own, which is a pretty heart warming thing to see.

> She wouldn't have played with them on her own and it wasn't natural

The only time Piglet has ever picked up toys was when he wanted to wind his brother up - Harry adored all toys and had his special favourites. Piglet was never interested in them at all, and now Harry's died he's not bothered, whatever you do with them. We reckon he's got some form of autism, because he's always been 'different'.