Ok so i bought a SBT pup just before christmas from a family friend. I was initially going to get the pup for free as it wasnt the typical markings and she wanted to be able to come and see it. anyway, I ended up paying her for the pup due to the owner of the stud being funny about payment. I have been quite patient waiting for the "papers" to appear but havent received them. The thing is I now own the dam and my sister has just got the sire today. the dams papers have no KC number on it and supposedly the sire doesnt have any. I havent had chance to speak to the women i bought my pup from but surely she should have asked to see the papers before breeding?? Now i know my pup will never be able to be kc registered because neither parents have registration but can i still class my pup as a sbt or do i need to class her as a cross?

ok, I'll bite.

Let me try and get this straight.

You own the pup - bought from family friend.

You now also own the dam - from same family friend.

Your sister now owns the sire - from the previous owner who was funny about payment?

Going onto that, may I ask why the stud owner was funny about payment?  I would have thought the dam owner was responsible for any agreement over stud fees, or perhaps the stud fee came about afterwards and she passed on those costs to puppy buyers?  i.e. you?

Also, you mention 'free because the pup didn't have typical markings', could I ask what markings pup does have?

> I havent had chance to speak to the women i bought my pup from but surely she should have asked to see the papers before breeding??

As should have any potential puppy buyers I'm afraid as well as health tests, etc.

I do assume that this means that non of the animals involved have been health tested either?

From what you have described, it does sound rather like non of the animals are KC registered.  Doesn't necessarily mean they're NOT SBT's of course, but as they're unregistered, it could put them into a rather 'risky' bracket.

Buyer beware!

I do hope that it wasn't the intention of you and your sister to breed from these two ....

Had either of them been registered WITH THE KENNEL CLUB, the breeder should have passed on KC registration forms to enable you (and your sister) to transfer ownership into your names.  

If you google "Dog Rescue" and "staffies" you will see just how many of these lovely dogs are in rescue - some pregnant bitches, some puppies as well as older dogs.    Sadly, this is one breed that is being bred to the point of no-return - the "breeders" are finding that they get no return on their investment and just abandon the poor dogs.

Enjoy your dogs - be they unregistered staffies or staffie crosses - as pets.

I bought the dam because she is a lovely dog but has house training issues. my sister bought the sire from someone who had bought purely to breed him. neither of us agree with this and figured we would rescue them from being sold purely as apuppy machine. i dont plan on letting the dame have any other litters in my opinion 4 is too young to have had 8 owners and at least 3 litters of pups so will be getting her spade soon.
My pups markings- she is mainly white with  black splodges very similar to a dairy cows markings (easiest way to describe her).
I was considering allowing my pup to have a litter at around 5 year old and then spaying her but wasnt in it for the money and never have been and like most people in here i dont like people breeding dogs to within an inch of their lifes hence the reason we have ended up with all of them.but would adhere to any testing the kc put in place prior to mating anyway
the sires previous owner had initially agreed to receive payment for the stud after the first pup was sold. my pup was the first to be chosen and his friend (who bought the dog purely to breed) told him she had sold one at 2 weeks old when i chose mine the rest is a bit hazzy as i didnt get too much info but he started asking her for the money almost everyday one of the pups died, the other pup had only had a deposit place down on it.

I was considering allowing my pup to have a litter at around 5 year old and then spaying her but wasnt in it for the money and never have been and like most people in here i dont like people breeding dogs to within an inch of their lifes hence the reason we have ended up with all of them

So what are the reasons for "Allowing" a litter? and five is far too old for a first litter anyway. If I were you I would have her spayed asap and love her for the pet she is, ditto the mother, get her spayed and enjoy them as the loving pets they are. There can be no justification for having a litter from an unregistered dog with no health checks, she cannot be shown although could work and if proved to be an excellent worker then maybe there would be justificationn to breeding but the amount of Staffs in rescue is horrendous and no disrespect to the breed they are not well known as working dogs in the legal sense of the word, just overbred for the macho interest by idiots. True Staffy lovers and good breeders are very very carefull not to produce masses of pups.

Aileen

as i said i was considering allowing my pup to have a litter but was undecided. the dam cant be spayed till after she is in heat next which is when she will be getting spayed. I did not and would not ever buy an animal for breeding purposes and as for the dame and the sire they would have no doubt ended up in a rescue centre or worse put down.

Well said Aileen.

From what you have said Gemma, the markings don't sound unusual at all, simply a pied Stafford.
Anyway, that's by the by.

Kudos to you for taking responsibility for them, rather than letting them end up in rescue. 

As a general statement, it is absolutely unnecessary and a tad reckless (to put it nicely) in this day and age to breed from untested Staffords.
As non of the dogs you've mentioned (including the male) appear to have been health tested (they can only be tested via the Animal Health Trust if they are KC registered as I understand it) please, please get both bitches speyed and enjoy them as pets. 
They deserve that much.

i didnt know the dame and sire were not registered until yesterday when we picked them up. up until that point i wasnt even sure i would breed my pup i had considered it but wont be now i know i can get the health checks done.I am a responsible owner and would have only bred her if i could have had checks done to ensure her and the pubs would be healthy.
question is what do i register my dog as for her insurance do i say she is purebred without papers or do i refer to her as a crossbreed. 
and yes she is a pied stafford just did a google search.

I'd speak to your insurer.  She is not KC registered and therefore may not be classed as a 'purebreed'.  I'm really not sure on that one.

Sweetheart, with the best intentions in the world, if you do not even know the name of the coat colouring of your dog, then to breed would have been folly.
I'm glad that you are a responsible owner, one of a few

normally crossbreeds are cheaper to insure, in my experience anyway, however if the insurance decides she is "pure" then you may face fraud. i'd call her a staffie as both her parents are "staffies" just without papers

> question is what do i register my dog as for her insurance do i say she is purebred without papers or do i refer to her as a crossbreed.

Just a thought - what has the vet registered her as? If the vet's are happy to have her on thier books as a pure-bred staffy then you could ensure her as such, if the vets would rather she was registered as a staffy-cross, then it's best to have her registered acordingly. Any claim on your insurance would be going through the vets, so it's best to make sure now, before setting all the insurance details, what  the vet will register her as.

the vet has registered her as a sbt. as for the coat i have never seen or heard of a pied sbt before i did ask the vet what her coloring was called and she never answered me.

This is a pied staffie. It's not particularly uncommon. You may find this link useful.

2nd link is brilliant JG

oh dear, round and round it goes where it stops nobody knows.

Today is just another day - to me they're all the same
I have the worst of genes you see, I bear the "staffy" shame.
The shame is in our numbers, there's thousands with no home.
Thousands just like me you'll find, in kennels all alone.

My mum was "just a staffy", my father - well who knows?
Mum, too, became unwanted, as the last puppy goes.
And then begins the process, of money - making deals
A life of "moving on" unfolds, who cares how the staffy feels?
If you have the cash to hand, the staffy pup is yours
But that pup is getting bigger now, just look at those big paws.

You brought me for your image, thought I'd make you look more tough
But you'll find my boisterous nature has already got too much.
If you had thought to train me, with kindness and with praise
You would have had a faithful friend to share your darkest days.
I would lay down my life for you, but you simply cannot see
You make sure you get your money back on what you paid for me.

And on it goes, until one day, I'm no longer worth a dime
The retail on an adult staff - not worth the waste of time.
So what happens to a staffy now? Do you really want to know?
Do you care what will become of us, when we leave our final home?

Have you ever thought to wonder, "Where is that staffy now?"
The "staffy" has another name; he's become a "stray" somehow.
Me, I was put into a car and driven far away
The door held open, I jumped out, I thought to run and play.
It was with joy and happy heart I turned to look for you
You drove away with all my trust and a piece of my heart too.

I wondered round for many days before I was brought here.
Now I wait with heavy heart, trepidation and with fear.
Seven days is all I have you see, seven days for you to claim
The little dog that you threw out, for which you have no shame.

This is my last goodbye now my seven days are up
If only more thought had gone into the future of that pup
As the needle empties to my veins I Iay down with one last sigh
I'm sorry I was born a staff, because it means that I must die.

[the dam cant be spayed till after she is in heat next which is when she will be getting spayed.

Sorry but why is this then i dont understand,??

and you say

I did not and would not ever buy an animal for breeding purposes

but earlier you said

I was considering allowing my pup to have a litter at around 5 year old

maybe i missed something sorry bit confussed now

You may find this link useful.

What a shame, the link on the page about wanting to breed or use our dog at stud leads to blank pages.

> the dam cant be spayed till after she is in heat next

That isn't true she could be spayed when the pups are about 12 weeks which should be about two to three months from when her season is due.

I have all my girls spayed at this stage after their last litter, as that way they only have one hormonal hair loss, not two, though with a short coated breed this is probably less of an issue.

OH piebald is a perfectly acceptable colour/marking pattern for a Stafford, one I rather like.

hi Gemma,

Glad to hear you have taken on some staffy's. This breed as somebody else said is being bred to the point of no return by some very stupid people who think they can make money from it. My sister has taken on two staffys and her daughter has one too. They are great family dogs and in the right owners care they can do a lot. My sister is currently working her way through the book 101 Dog Tricks by Kyra Sundance. The dogs love the attentiona and are really happy learning new things.

A friend had one from rescue she used to do some companion shows and low level agility with. These dogs love to do things, especially for their owners. I think you will enjoy these dogs regardless of whether they are KC registered or not, especially if you really get into training.

There are breeds who have rescued dogs which are trained and are now performing is display teams or getting work as film dogs. I would love to see a staffy display team to dis-spell some of the macho image they have gained and help them lose the "devil dogs" image protrayed in the national media, as the staffy is definitely not a "devil dog" if well trained and loved by a caring owner.

I'm glad you have taken these dogs in and are offering them loving pet homes, thats great !! Well done. 
I am pretty sure you should not have to wait for the mum to have another season before getting her spayed, my vet would certainly do it any time after her litter are 10 weeks old and they are doing it through keyhole surgery now which I will certainly be going for when I have another spayed.

ok well i am very sorry that i have taken the advice if my vet and will take her to another vet if they are providing me with wrong information. also i feel like i am being judged for taking these dogs on. I have experience with the sbt breed so it isnt like i am taking the dogs on with out a basic knowledge.
I have also been back to the guy who my sister bought the male from and have received his kc registered papers after a long arguement and phoning the guy who owned the dog when it was studded out.
As far as the mother goes i cant vouch for her being KC registered but it wouldnt suprise me if this guy has used her number for one of his dogs- he seems to be like that.
These dogs will be staying in my family until they pass away and hopefully they will have a long happy life.
I was considering breeding my pup but because i cant do the necessary healthchecks to make sure they will be 100% i wont be and i wasnt even sure if i would breed her. I did not get her for breeding i bought her to be a family dog and thought she would be a good dog to get as they are known for being good with children.
I did not purchase any of the dogs to use them for breeding purposes in fact i bought them for the exact opposite. The dame and sire have been used to breed on more than 3 occasions and by getting them away from people who would do that to them i thought i was doing a positive thing

> The dame and sire have been used to breed on more than 3 occasions and by getting them away from people who would do that to them i thought i was doing a positive thing

I think everyone has commended you for this, it is just the idea of breeding from the pup that would be most unwise.

Breeding really should be left to those who have a good reason for doing so, who can take a lifelong responsibility for the welfare of the puppies bred over generations, few people can give this level of commitment, this is why so many end up in rescue.

Also it should only be done with the full knowledge of the generations of dogs behind the ones being bred from, this means knowing the dogs yourself or using the knowledge of senior people in your breed who know, this is best done by being actively involved in a breed by showing or where applicable working them.

As for your vets advice, I can only think he doesn't realise you know when the bitch was last in season (about 10 - 11 weeks before the pups were born) so for that reason suggested getting her done after her next season so as to get the timing right (should be ideally between seasons, but then rescue societies spay bitches as and when they get them).

> As far as the mother goes i cant vouch for her being KC registered but it wouldnt suprise me if this guy has used her number for one of his dogs- he seems to be like that.

But I thought the dam was owned by a family friend - a lady?

Anyway, look, don't feel judged for taking the dogs on please.  We're only trying to help, and it IS very good of you to take them in.
I think that the main concern throughout has been (as has been mentioned already lol) is the fact that the Stafford as a breed are being so overbred and rescues are running wild with them.
You've done a good thing, and as you've said they're going to be family dogs, that's great

ETA, going back to Jean's post/link regarding breeding, here is a link that might be useful

http://www.staffords.co.uk/sbtbc/breeding.htm

> My pups markings- she is mainly white with  black splodges very similar to a dairy cows markings (easiest way to describe her).

Oh, I love pied staffs.  The cow like markings are lovely.  I have a red and white (but not pied) staff.  Amazing dogs and well done for taking them on.  You will have to get a pic of your pup on your avatar.

People on here come across as being very suspicious of new posters with tales related to breeding as there are so many chancers coming on the site looking to breed their dogs to make money etc. 

yes i did get the dame from a family friend but she got it through the guy who we got the sire from. it like one huge net of people using her purely for pups. one of her previous owners kept her outside at all times in all weather poor little thing.

cheekychow ive put an avatar pic of my pup up dont have one of them together yet

ahhh pup looks sweet how old is she bless her  , how long you had mum then?

the pup is 12 week now i got her mum not yesterday day before

Good on you for taking the dogs on, hopefully the poor things will now have a good life.

But, it's just a lesson once again that people fib all the time, anyone can say a dog is pedigree and even write one up themselves, only the KC papers are legitimate, even if the pups papers aren't there at an earlier visit the Dam's KC papers will be and should always be looked at along with all the relevant breed health test, hip, eye results etc at the same time, all these things are easy to check on visiting the litter. I personally would never collect a pup without seeing the Dam and Sires paperwork and health checks and having the pups KC papers infront of me no matter how nice and charismatic the breeder was.

People are continually fooled all the time. So sad.

Good luck with the dogs and for giving them a much better life.

> the pup is 12 week now

I would get her booked in for her spay asap, this week or next, well done.

Ditto, no reason not to at all, then this poor bitch can relax and no-one has to worry about accidents, she can truly be a retired pet and loved as such.

But, it's just a lesson once again that people fib all the time, anyone can say a dog is pedigree and even write one up themselves, only the KC papers are legitimate,

Only the KC REGISTRATION CERTIFICATE is legitimate. Most breeders don't spend the extra £6 per pup to get pedigrees from the KC but rather print them out themselves, and there is nothing wrong with that at all.

Hope you manage to offer her a permanent home now and have her speyed. 8 different owners and at least 3 litters at just 4 years old is way too much for this little bitch

Just been alerted to this post on another forum http://www.arachnophiles.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=14524

Amazing isn't it, thought the replies here were pretty supportive, but pointing out the absolutely awful situation with the exploitation of the staffy breed.

Typical moan when the answers aren't what you want to hear.

Perhaps someone should post on there telling the people to visit her local dogs home and see how many dogs like these are in there languishing.

We take food down to ours from the proceeds of our Christmas raffles and for years it has been full of staffie types, including whole litters, in fact the only litters I have seen in there have been staffie/staffie crosses.

Soem rescues are even putting them down after their 7 days are up as unhomeable.

>Amazing isn't it, thought the replies here were pretty supportive, but pointing out the absolutely awful situation with the exploitation of the staffy breed.

Absolutely. It's very galling to be kicked in the teeth for being informative, helpful and supportive. Quite puts you off trying to help people in the future.

Have to say that I gave up some time ago!   We're always told to try to educate and be nice but it really doesn't work..........

There was a thread recently where we'd not been given the whole story that had been posted on another forum and I was given a slap on the wrist!!  'Fraid they ain't gonna make a fool out of me.

When will folk realise that when anyone comes on here and says....... 'Staffy'...'SBT'...combined with the words...'papers' 'KC reg'

then this is what it's all about. 

Never fails!!

In regards pedigree papers. A few years back I received a call from a young man (my name is Declan but you can call me Jock ).Young lad got his first flat, went out to buy a dog and came home with what he thought was a purebred Dalmation puppy. Of course most pups would not be happy in a tower block with an inexperienced owner so pup howled his lungs out, landlords put their foot down and I was called in.

Since I was going to Dublin that weekend anyway and had room I told him where to meet me with the pup. I nearly died laughing when the Dalmation pup turned out to be a blue merle Great Dane pup and the papers were a piece of paper on which the seller had written: *vaxinaded on de 12.*

Fools and their money, the young lad had spent 400 Euros on this "Dalmation".

It was lucky for the pup as he turned out to have Wobbler's and I spent a small fortune on an OP which took 6 hours and was a success after loads of hydro and physio, Parci now leads a happy life in a pet home.

Just had a look at that other forum what a lot of rubbish. I have found on here that you all are very helpfull  if others do not like the advice you give then they should grow up. and not act a child.

As I said to the poster who alerted me to that website, I think I'm pleased because it means that I don't have to add another poster to my "ignore" list because she annoys the c**p out of me, I suppose I'm pleased!

She was given good, honest information and advice - she was commended for "rescuing" these SBTs.   Too often people come on here and all they want someone to say "of course, it's alright for you to let your  7 year old three-legged dog with the iffy temperament have her puppies - it was an accident that you let her out the front door when she was in season and mated with the bad-tempered staffie that everyone avoids - your children will love them "....... grrrr!!

Just been alerted to this post on another forum http://www.arachnophiles.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=14524


Very, very disappointing!!!!

Even more so that CD is being slandered on the other forum as no one was rude at all, just giving out factual information and trying to be helpful.  People like this make me so cross as they come to this forum obviously as it the most informative with very knowledgeable people on it across the board, get the answer to their question and plenty more advice to boot, then have the cheek to do that!

Tut Tut!

I have to admit I have given up on a number of pet forums, as all the sane people get shouted down for giving sound and sensible advice. It's pretty sad when you see a member banned from a forum for giving out common sense infomation......luckily some of them are members on here!

I belong to a number of other forums. I find myself answering a lot of there questions, but if I am unsure of things I always come on here to ask you lot. Just shows how much I value your input, and don't trust the answers I would get from the other forums

See here :-  http://www.arachnophiles.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?p=167901#post167901

She's been answered

(what's the shortest time anyone has been a member of a forum and been banned???)

    Well done!!!!

The truth will out!

Have just read the link.
Well done to charlottes web aka Margaret pointing out the other side of the comments made to the poster who seemed to have forgotten the positve points that were said to her.

Good job xx,  thank you ,

Thanks to you also Barbara and all of you who always give sound good advice,

Let it be known that All of you give your advice on things here, and that it is valued by a lot of people who come on CD, including myself,
People can and do learn a lot from each other on CD and it really depends on which way you want to live your life as to weather you take the sound advice given and be pleased you've learnt something and become a better person from it, or weather you want to just not see the good advice given and see it just as getting in your way of what you really want to do and just criticize  it,
Much respect to all of you and thanks for doing what you do,

I tried to register to make a point. But was refused registration application.... Maybe it's got somthing to do with the username I had chosen, although I could see no problem with it... Whats wrong with Champ_dogs_fan09? Maybe it was too long?

Rofl, you crack me up you do lol,

I'm such a sillybilly ;-D, I am lol,

One has to think outside the web