If you read the last 2 posts on the thread "my dogs fighting again" by me this will explain why I am asking about dominance. Would you read this as being that my youngest was the "boss" so to speak? When one dog is telling another one off (not fighting ) would they normally do this? (head and arm over the top of the other dog)

In any disagreement someone gets the upper hand or tries to. 

Dominance is not cut and dried with any two dogs one will be more dominant than the ither in different situations, depending on how important things are to them, yes often there is one obvious leader and one follower, but at other times with closer ages or none wanting particularly to lead it isn't so clear cut.

Think about the dynamics in your work -place or school playground.  What is often described as dominance ref the dogs would be considered 'assertiveness' among adults and probably 'bullying' in the kids.

I really don't think labels are helpful.

If mine have a spat or are jockeying for position they get told off and sent about their business, in this way they often don't feel it worth their whiles getting into it, as I'm in charge.

What would you do if this situation happened between your kids?

They would be sent to the "naughty step"

We clapped (told to do this to distract them) and said "off" and then the youngest was put in the kitchen (very boring in there!) as he was the one who started it. Was this the right thing to do in your opinion?
I do think there is a slight leader in the youngest, I feel that he is less tolerant than the eldest who is soooooooo placid and always submits to other dogs. I was amazed though that there was actually no fighting, I was so sure before but I completely misread what they were doing.

I now find myself studying them all the time!!

> and then the youngest was put in the kitchen (very boring in there!) as he was the one who started it.

I would always send away or tell of both equally, as deciding who in your opinion started it is never a good idea.

The fact the older one came to lie on the cushion in the younger ones eyes was him starting it, do you see, as his space was being invaded.

Much better to clap the hands and send them both away and temporarily remove the item so no-one wins.

Thanks I will make sure we do this from now on if they do it again. Should I then remove the item completely for the rest of the evening? They have gone to bed now but were curled up asleep together on it after

Does it matter?  By that I mean do you need a label for the behaviour?

Your behaviourist seems to have reassured you about what is going on in the relationship between your 2 dogs.  The incident with the cushion (mentioned in your other thread) was diffused by you making a noise and distracting them both. Do you really need to apply a title to the situation?

As Brainless said:  If mine have a spat or are jockeying for position they get told off and sent about their business, in this way they often don't feel it worth their whiles getting into it, as I'm in charge.  I do the same with my two, if there is a situation that isn't resolved by a low grumble and looks as if it might develop I simply move them along. 

I know my two very well, I know what the likely trigger points might be, I know their body language and I take appropriate steps to manage them.  If one couldn't be trusted with something without resource guarding then the item would be quietly removed or each dog given some alone time with the treasured item.  For example, if it becomes necessary, I can ensure they are given both time and space to enjoy a bone or have a sleep on the favourite bed.  Just like the kids I sometimes 'organise' their sharing!

Dominance - if there is such a thing - is a floating beast in this house.  What may be apparent in one situation on any given day, could well be the opposite next time.  One dog might 'lead' in one set of circumstances but 'follow' in another.  Don't worry too much about labels - just watch your dogs closely, they will be giving lots of clues.  It's often just a question of learning triggers and body language.  Hope this helps

I'm glad that you are just using your distraction techniques to seperate the two, but I do feel that you are analysing too much your dogs behaviour.

Quite literally as with children you just tell them to behave, your in charge. Dogs do and will have little arguments they are usually completely harmless and nothing to worry about, these two have never drawn blood, just IMO had spats, they argue a lot over all sorts of things just like siblings do and as you know because there is hardly any age difference, so no clear alpha, they will both have their own opinions on differing things which are important to them, there isn't always an alpha especially with just two dogs we don't have a pack here.

You have had so much conflicting advice from different behaviourists over which dog is showing more of an alpha role that it is just best to treat them both the same and just give them a quick telling off, an Oi, Stop, Behave! A clap as you have been doing.

I think what you have to accept is that you don't need to analyse everything that happens, just take it as read that they will have disagreements, the odd growl, the odd telling off, your not going to stop that completely. I think this is what you need to accept, just react differently to it in not thinking the world is ending everytime it happens. They are always going to jostle, they are equal characters. But they don't actually hurt each other, so IMO it isn't a problem, it's like two brothers who love each other, get on great but but heads occassionally. It's to do with character, not necessarily behaviour therapy.

Just keep yourself installed as the authority figure and tell them to behave however you do that, hopefully you will soon not feel as stressed by it, you just need to accept that you are never going to rid them of this behaviour all together, maybe the older they get the less confrontational they will become, but I think you just need to accept that they both have strong characters and can get the strop with each other.

> Dominance - if there is such a thing - is a floating beast in this house

Remarkably well described DAB!!

It's something those who have kept dogs for years take for granted and deal with as a matter of course.
Cavaliers are such equable little people it's often hard to spot disagreements, subtlety is their middle name!!
Last night a 3 yo male of mine had half a bonio and his mother wanted it, nothing strange there, he likes to guard and she likes to eat.
I listened to his growls getting louder until it got on my nerves so I distracted his mother with the grooming kit...that sorted it
Dealing with this sort of interaction on a daily basis develops strategies which we take for granted.

Did I think the two dogs in question would take it further? Instinctively I thought not but it was drowning out the TV so instictively I intervened with distraction.
Dominance....as DAB says....floating. The growly dog is a woose and his mother is my absolute top dog and could have whopped him good and taken the Bonio anytime she chose.... they were just interacting. They cant sleep all day!

I think from what you have said about your 2 boys, I guess the younger is just more assertive-I'm not saying he wants to rule his mate with an iron fist, but as he is the most assertive of the 2 then allow him to be the leader in your pack.
At dinner times get him to sit and give him his bowl first, when taking out for a walk put his lead on first. By the sounds of your older lad he is the more laid back chap of the 2- so allow him to be the follower not the leader- you can not have 2 leaders in one household as this will lead to confrontation, as you have experienced. For us to 'favour' one over the other is hard for us as people we think of equality but in the dog world there has to be an established hierarchy.

When I took in my girl Tinkerbells- brother a 5 yr old lab staff mix- Starsky, my old boy (Snoop) was suffering with a bad neck injury and was on lots of medication. Starsky even though was and always has been scared of my snoop, within a matter of a month started to growl snap and raise his lips at snoop, I just realised that that's the natural order of things the young take over from the old. I never told Starsks off for this behaviour I just let them get on with it. Snoop was cool as a cucumber in ignoring him anyways. After 3 months snoop recovered and so then he took back the leader crown- starsks was a little spun out at first but I knew snoop has the more assertive personality so I let them get on with it. Snoop will climb onto the same chair climbing over him and he feels thats he's right, Starsks will have a growl at snoop about being pushed away from his sister but will move out the way for snoop. Must say with my lot they do realise I am the ultimate ruler in this house though.

Thanx for the advice. I do tend to over analyse things with the dogs because we have had so much conflicting information from different people that I felt so confused. I now feel much more comfortable that it is just as someone said and "interaction" and I will just distract them if needs be. Like someone else said they aren't dogs that hate each other they adore each other and never sleep seperately the youngest obviously just doesn't like to share (us or food or toys) although we have gradually worked on the bones and chews so that they can be in the same room.

These are the smallest breed I have ever owned and I have never been so stressed lol, I think where I was always so strict with our other dogs because of their size I have been not so strict in being the leader with these two because they are smaller (I know now that was completely wrong)
I now do wonder whether neutering would not be such a great idea or maybe if we do just to neuter the eldest to widen the gap of who is in charge?

About neutering, that would chill out the older one considerably more than he already is. I had my snoop done at 7 and has become far less of a handful with male dogs. He even is rather friendly now... rather than a monster he once was!
If I had known how much it chilled him out.. I would of done it at a younger age definitely.

With the breed you have I would not neuter unless you want a dog with a candifloss coat which is a nightmare to groom, and as he gets older and skin more tender he will hate the constant grooming.

The other posters dogs were bull breed types that are very dog dominant as a rule so the difference for her was noticeable/worthwhile, I doublet this would be so with your Cavaliers.

Yes thats one of the reasons why we have never had it done before.

Another thing that has popped into my head is that there is a trigger that will always without fail start the growling and this is when we restrain them with their collars, even if we restrain one that one will start growling. We can grab their collars to put leads etc on but actually restraining them with the collar triggers this?
Apologies if my description is a bit vague

Being grabbed at the back of the neck isvery much a challenging action to a dog. If you grab the collar at the back of the neck (natural to do because we're taller than our dogs!) it can seem similar to another dog getting hold of them and they can respond negatively if they're in a mood of heightened emotion.

thank you that is really handy to know

Thanx for the advice. I do tend to over analyse things with the dogs because we have had so much conflicting information from different people that I felt so confused. I now feel much more comfortable that it is just as someone said and "interaction

Here's some info on dominance generally (basically, don't worry about the hierarchy thing as it was only a theory which became a "meme". But you will get many people who still refer to it purely because they've not kept up to date perhaps, or perhaps they still believe it).

These links may be useful  :

http://www.dogwelfarecampaign.org/why-not-dominance.php
http://www.dogwelfarecampaign.org/if-not-dominance.php
http://www.apbc.org.uk/articles/why-wont-dominance-die

They refer quite a lot to the dog-human interaction, but there's info there too about how dogs react with other dogs, hth.

Lindsay
x

Thank you thats great I will have a read of the links you suggested

The other posters dogs were bull breed types that are very dog dominant as a rule so the difference for her was noticeable/worthwhile, I doublet this would be so with your Cavaliers

Yes, this is a very valid point, whenever advice is given the, most importantly breed, age, sex, history, background and the whole situation has to be taken into account, sometimes we may even give what may look like conflicting advice from one poster to another but that is because everything needs to be taken into account, and advice matched for each particular dog.

Dominance is not cut and dried with any two dogs one will be more dominant than the ither in different situations, depending on how important things are to them, yes often there is one obvious leader and one follower, but at other times with closer ages or none wanting particularly to lead it isn't so clear cut

I think this comment is very interesting. I have noticed with my bitches that dominance between them seems transient, with no one bitch being dominant in all situations. The oldest bitch is usually 'top' bitch, but she rarely re-inforces that fact and yesterday when her daughter 'stole' the ball in the garden she wouldn't take it back and the daughter was displaying clear body language that suggsted what would happen if she did try to take it back. (balls are very high value to the daughter) Yet in the same situation with bones or other food, daughter wouldn't dream of trying to take from Mum unless Mum 'permitted' it.