Hi All

Poor George has been attacked twice in a week by the same terrier, both times whilst he has been on the lead as I know said terrier can be a bit iffy with dogs (shame as they used to play together).  The second time was more scary as the terrier saw him from across the park, probably 150 yards away, and flew for him
George got bitten in a few places but only minor skin grazes luckily and didn't attempt to fight back just stood making that 'boxer noise'.  There was blood everywhere though and I looked like I had a killer dog walking back home.

My question in what are you best off doing if your dog is being attacked - should I have let him off the lead but then have no idea where they could end up (plus the terrier can probably outrun George) and risk George taking offence to said terrier and doing goodness knows what damage; or kept him on the lead as I did and try to 'remove' the offending dog?

I thought it was going to happen again tonight when somewhat blinded by the sun I saw a little black dog heading our way...so I picked george up   It turns out it was another dog and they played together for ages.

Its not the PC answer but my foot would connect with the dog.  I also carry a spray that makes a 'shhhh' noise but it is hard to use it with 2 dogs to get a hand free in the heat of the moment and get the spray out. 

TBH I am now of the opinion that if you know the dog is aggressive and the owner isn't taking appropriate precautions to prevent their dog getting at other dogs then you have to take whatever measures to protect your dog.  I think it is very unfair that you may have to live a lifetime with a damaged/aggressive/nervous etc dog because someone else has been irresponsible with their dog.

Well I did think about the foot technique if it had been him tonight!

I feel for the owners as they didn't get him as a pup and have been trying REALLY hard with him to try and undo all the bad work that was put in before but maybe some things just stick in a dogs mind.  They were lovely and apologetic about it and I didn't want to do anything too drastic as they only live a few doors away but I also don't want my lovely boy to be turned into a dog-hater either. 

I'm glad George was having a ball playing with other dogs tonight so it seems he's not too upset over the ordeal either that or his teeny brain can't hold that much information and he's forgotten

I wouldn't feel for the owners they should be keeping this dog on a leash and under control as they know what he's like.

Not pc myself about dogs that attack for no reason, I have in the distant past used a foot behind the ribs on a rough collie that jumped out of his garden and attacked my elderly toothless corgi for no reason other than we were there   I thought he was ripping my dog's throat out there was so much blood.

These days I would swing a spare lead, keeps them far enough away for safety    Not willing to have vets bills because of some stupid person, or a dog with behaviour problems

If the dog has issues, then it's the owners duty to keep it on a lead until those issues are well and truly sorted. So, stop feeling sorry for them. I have sat on a dog that attacked one of mine, and would do so again!

I think the important thing in terms of your feelings, is to not get too uptight when out with your dog, the last thing you want is for that to be passed onto him and for him to be wary of approaches from dogs.

I'd suggest to the people who have the other dog that they really should keep it on a lead before it causes serious damage. Hope all works out well

Years ago I was plagued by a neighbours lab who was extremely dog aggressive and never kept in so I always met him around the neighbourhood. One day I was in a country store and saw a horse whip about 2 feet long with a small piece of leather on the end. I bought it and carried it with me on my walk. The first evening the lab came out to attack my cocker who was on his lead I might add, I gave him a fine smack of the whip on the bottom. He was so shocked he literally took off. I had it for a long time and he got 2 more on 2 occasions. After that I only had to wave it at him from a distance and he'd give me a dirty look and turn away! I may pick up another one some time but I have no issues anymore since he died.

It is an offence to have a dog 'out of control' in a public place, i would tell the owners that...ONCE, then report the issue to the local dog warden.

I wouldnt stand for any dog attacking mine when i was out with mine on a lead and under control, a toe up the posterior would be a defo!

The owners are responsible for their dog and its 'issues'. It isnt fair on your dog

Good luck

I think if they lived near me I would be asking them to muzzle the dog if they are not prepared to keep it on a lead. Be careful of picking your dog up, my OH did that once with our dog mid fight and got a bite on the cheek for his trouble. You could carry a hiking stick with you and use it to push the other dog away (don't hit the dog with it though ) or the foot method is my preferred method too as I reckon my leg could stand the bite better than my hands or arms. I hate it when dogs fight and am lucky in that mine have never fought or been attacked ( cross fingers and touch every bit of wood near hand) but my pup is a feisty little madam so if anyone would it would be her!

I think I've been incredibly lucky so far with my two, but of course there have been instances where aggressive dogs have charged mine. Thankfully neither have fought back or received injuries. The last time we had an incident, a collie/GSD cross bitch who is always normally on the lead, charged my boy on the beach. I immediately marched forward with a loud "OI!!!" and the dog backed off. I had a stick in my hand and just shouted "get away!". I've done this before when mine have been on lead and stood between my dogs and the aggressor. Up until now they've always backed off... maybe I'm a bit "scary" lol!!!

When my boy was a pup, probably 6 months old, we met a huge mastiff cross on the beach, who charged my pup and butted him on the side. Thankfully, he had a muzzle on but I have no doubt that dog would have done serious damage if he had half a chance. Another time, a muzzled dog charged my boy (on the beach again) and as he jumped back, he unfortunately knocked the lady who had just been stroking him backwards straight over his back. I was flamin' furious, as the owners of the aggressive dog just carried on, leaving myself and her husband to pick her off the beach. Thankfully she was fine, but the memories will stay with me forever!!

I feel so bad for dogs which get attacked for no reason. It can scar them mentally for life and it makes me so angry that owners of aggressive dogs make every excuse under the sun why their dog is out of control! To simply muzzle them and let them wreak havoc is no excuse, as a well socialised dog will read their negative body language immediately, and either be traumatised or fight back, which would make our own dog seem in the wrong.

Poor George. Some dogs who get attacked then turn on other dogs, going in first & ask questions later so you don't want that.

You could try the spray. Don't feel sorry for the owners, they should be trying harder and not subjecting their menace to other innocent dogs.

Where I used to walk there was an aggressive JRT owned by an elderly couple who was the bane of every dog walker. The dog lunged at my old boy, & swung from his chest hair. My oldie didn't retaliate so I lifted my leg to make contact with the little devil & saw I was still wearing my flip flops so it didnt have much effect! I ranted at the owner & said in future I would be taking a stick and using it it he as much as looked at my dog. After that I used to take a ski pole with me, lighter than a walking stick & extendable.

I have a dog (and sometimes people) aggressive dog, and he is always both muzzled and on a lead. It is my responsibility to ensure that his bad behaviour does not cause harm to others (either animal or human). He is getting better and now doesn't react to all dogs or all people, just a "chosen" few. If he had slipped his lead and managed to get to a dog such as yours I wouldn't have a problem if you felt the need to give him a kick. (It's never happened to me, but just wanted to put the other view across).

We have issues with friendly dogs running over to Dave, usually with the owner in the distance shouting "it's OK he's friendly", my shouting back "that's all very well but he isn't!". We can see improvement in him, mainly in relation to how quickly he calms from an hightened state, not too long ago we would have to cut the walk short if he'd had a moment, as he would react to a leaf rustling in the past following one.

Sounds like George has taken it all in his stride, so fingers crossed it won't have any lasting effects.

As an owner of a NOW dog aggressive dog I carry a horse whip with me when I walk her.

My girl has always been every dogs friend and played with pups and older dogs alike but was attacked by a staffy when we entered the vets reception area and then 2 months later was on the lead entering a field when a GSD cross type dog spotted us and came running over and attacked her horrifically. There was no owner in sight and the dog had no collar on. My dog got progressively worse over a couple of weeks and despite being absolutely perfect with my other 4 dogs, when I take her out I have to have a collar and her harness on and 2 leads for security in case one breaks as she is so strong being a Bullmastiff. Even though we have been attending socialisation classes and are working with a behaviourist there has been no improvement what-so-ever and she is an out and out killing machine when she sees a strange dog to the point where the worst possible outcome for her is now firmly fixed in my brain. Its not her fault she has ended up like this and its not fair that out of control dogs have traumatized and ruined my once loving and perfect girl but I can wholeheartedly say that if another dog tried to attack any of mine again I would do absolutely whatever it took to get the other dog to stop...no matter how the other dog ended up. If I ended up killing it then so be it. Yes that may sound harsh but it shouldn't be loose and I refuse to let any of my dogs go through that again.

>I feel for the owners as they didn't get him as a pup and have been trying REALLY hard with him to try and undo all the bad work that was put in before but maybe some things just stick in a dogs mind.  They were lovely and apologetic about it and I didn't want to do anything too drastic as they only live a few doors away but I also don't want my lovely boy to be turned into a dog-hater either.

Georgepig, as I was reading through the responses you've received I was struck by the difference between posting when your own dog is attacked and posting when your dog is the aggressor.  There seems to be a lot of sympathy and support both ways but some of it contradictory.  Of course you want the best thing for your dog but equally you'd hope to be treated fairly if your dog has caused the problem.

Sadly, life isn't always fair and sometimes owners do not help themselves but in your case you both sound like very reasonable caring people.  It certainly seems that you would get the best results from talking rather than carrying a whip (that worries me) and kicking their dog (not a whole lot better).  Obviously I don't know the dog or people concerned but it may well be worth trying some kind of careful introductions with you both walking to the park side by side, no eyeballing, no contact, just brisk 'let's go' type of walking.  You could help George and be a good neighbour at the same time.  You don't have to be off lead at the end of it but supervised ignoring can be a useful technique.  The owner might benefit from your support too , I think it must be very hard to own a combative dog...

Interestingly we live next door to a springer that is real menace when she sees my two on a walk.  She get paranoid about her stick (always has one) and oddly stressy and confrontational when her owner is around (owner squeaks and flaps).  I look after her from time to time and in my garden she's a different dog and no bother to my dogs at all

>> Obviously I don't know the dog or people concerned but it may well be worth trying some kind of careful introductions with you both walking to the park side by side, no eyeballing, no contact, just brisk 'let's go' type of walking. 

This is what we do with Dave, and he's now fine with dogs he knows/sees regularly in the park, "new" dogs or those that rush up to him still cause him to react. I do always try the "come on keep walking, stop being an idiot" approach, but it's not always easy when the other dog is intent on making friends! As I mentioned before he does calm down a lot quicker now, so we don't have to cut our walks short. It's a long road with him, and I have not doubt that he would most probably have been given up as a lost cause by many others. But he's my boy, and in the house he reverts to the puppy phase that he missed out on.

> no eyeballing, no contact, just brisk 'let's go' type of walking

Sadly dogs a babe they have been doing this for a few years now and nothing seems to have changed as he stills goes barmy when on the lead and sees another dog so I doubt whether this will have any effect, shame really as they do try with him.

I think the reason he was off the lead is that he hasn't gone for any dogs in a long time and has been playing with some but seems to have taken a dislike to George   I don't know a lot about dogs fighting but it looked like an all out attack to me as the owner was trying to pull him off but it took some effort and he was thrashing around when he had hold of George.  He was still trying to get at him once he was restrained on his lead.

If it happens again - which I'm going to try to minimise by going in the opposite direction if I see him - then what do I do??  Do I let George off his lead if he is on or keep him on and try to keep said offending dog at bay??  If it does then I will definitely say something as if it was a smaller dog I can only imagine that fight ending one way.

if a dog is running at your dog about to attack with the right shoes on clip them under the chin with your foot . (before I get flack I was told this years ago by a dog trainer who trained dogs for the police and personally would have no problem using any force to protect my own dogs)

I would keep him on the lead but let go if the dog attacks so that he can defend himself ..i worry about letting off lead in this situation if you are near a road  where either dog could be run over as it would be a fight or flight situation.

I this happens again threaten the owner that you are going to report them to the warden re dangerous dog running free in a public place tell them to muzzle.

> It certainly seems that you would get the best results from talking rather than carrying a whip (that worries me) and kicking their dog (not a whole lot better).

In an ideal world talking would be the best option but generally dogs that come running aggressively towards my two either don't have an owner in sight or have an owner who is meandering down towards us while my dogs are lunging and roaring at the dog having a go at them.  TBH I think a kick from me would do far less damage than the teeth of a rottie or a staffy.

As for the other side of the argument I wouldn't mind if someone kicked my dogs if they felt it would protect their own dog/self/child etc. I would be grateful that they were limiting any damage done.

> if a dog is running at your dog about to attack with the right shoes on clip them under the chin with your foot . (before I get flack I was told this years ago by a dog trainer who trained dogs for the police

? The mind boggles............
My OH was with me when Buster was being pestered by 2 loose JRTs, he stupidly stepped toward one to shoo it off while kicking out at it with his foot - he got attacked by it!! (I'd hate to think what would happen to a person that actually tried kicking a larger dog......) Ok, so there was no damage done and the JRT was only giving a warning 'ragging' to his trouser leg, but if I hadn't insisted he stand still & be quiet he would have given it another kick and most likely have had the 2 of them go for him. I've met these lilltl 'monsters' many a time. Yes, they would be agressive towards me (growling, snapping/lunging) & not very friendly to Buster, but they never actually attacked either of us to because we never became a real threat, my OH on the other hand proved thier suspisions....

Agression begats aggression, this applies to any situation. Hitting a dog is a very good way to make it want to bite you!

ETA These little JRTs are now not the slightest problem for me & Buster. They ignore me and are happy to sniff Bust & pass by without bothering. We have repeadly proved to them we are not a threat....

> As for the other side of the argument I wouldn't mind if someone kicked my dogs if they felt it would protect their own dog/self/child etc. I would be grateful that they were limiting any damage done.

How many people can tell wheather a dog approaching them quickly is going to attack with intent to injure, may cause a bossy scuffle or just running up to say 'hi' or to play?

I know that most people who meet Buster think his play-bow is a warning of assault ( ) so I think to kick a dog that you 'think' may attack your dog/you/your child is probably the most stupid thing you could do! It could initiate an attack on you that was previously unintended, it could initiate an attack on you when all that otherwise may of happened is a bit of male chest butting & macho-ness between dogs or simply an enthusiastic greeting. It is basically a good way to cause a fight of somesort especially when you are talking about the more powerfull breeds that are highly likely to actively defend thierselfs agianst violence.

> If it happens again - which I'm going to try to minimise by going in the opposite direction if I see him - then what do I do??  Do I let George off his lead if he is on or keep him on and try to keep said offending dog at bay??

Keep him on-lead for his safetly, he could take off & get lost or get hit by a car if let loose.

karenclynes has given me some good advice for avoiding confrontations with dogs, in this thread, the 6th post down

if a dog is attacking my dogs ..I am sorry but I would do anything to get them off ..never been in that position but I know what I would do if I needed too. (dont care who I upset either)

> if a dog is attacking my dogs ..I am sorry but I would do anything to get them off ..never been in that position but I know what I would do if I needed too. (dont care who I upset either)

But how do you know in the early stages or when a dog is running up to yours, whether it is going to be 'handbags at dawn' or something more serious? How do you know your own dog can't deflect any aggression towards him? If you treated all dogs running up to yours as potential attackers, that's not going to be a good message for your dog, you would possibly be making him/her nervous of others.

Dogs are good at bloodless fights, it's the equivalent of a big shouting match outside the pub where it all seems scary and loud but nobody gets hurt. If you deny them the chance to settle things like that intheir own way, then maybe they will resort to more aggressive tactics in the future or become a doormat.

I agree that even a handbags spat isn't ideal, but it takes a lot of practice to see one coming or stop one in its tracks and surely any dog has a right to tell another one off for being rude or nasty? Until we can all speak dog and dogs can speak English, we don't have much choice.

Im sorry but isnt the quickest way of getting an agressive dog to turn on you is to kick it or whip it?  I thought one of the biggest no-no's in breaking up a fight was to actually intervene yourself, as sometimes in the heat of the moment your own dog might not realise its you either.  I would want to save my dog whatever it took, however I do not want to end up in some field, miles away from anyone bleeding profusely from dog bites.

I would either carry a pressured air spray like the Pet Corrector, you can even get a little belt clip that you can stick it on for easy access, a rape alarm which would probably make a loud enough noise to wake up anyone near or even a bottle of water to squirt over it.

Might just be enough to stop the agressor in its tracks.

Then I would be going home and giving a full description to the Dog Warden.

My sweet gentle Granny Pepsi was once attacked by a boxer. The boxers owner had it on a lead and was walking 100 yds infront of me. It was turning round and barking snarling at us so I slowed down to give her time to get out of the way. The dog was so strong that it pulled her over and got lose, it flew at Pepsi who was off lead and strolling along by my side. The boxer had her on her back with its teeth round her throat and was trying to kill her. Poor Pepsi is quiet and not at all agressive she was screaming and I did the only thing I could I grabbed it by the collar and twisted till it had to let go or suffocate. I was able to get hold of it's lead and Pespsi ran off to a safe distance. The boxers owner just jumped up and down crying and shouting so I gave her dog back to her and in short sharp sentances informed her of what I though of them both !! I told her if I ever saw her out with it without a muzzel on I would report her to the police/dog warden and I would sue her if her dog ever hurt one of mine. This was a known agressive dog who she could not hold it was far too strong for her. I have never seem her since.
Sometimes you have to do what ever it takes to stop a fight, had I let them "Get on with it" Pepsi could well be dead now. I would have kicked/beaten/strangled or whatever was needed to get if off her. Sorry but that is how I feel. If a dog rushes mine looking agressive  I will not stand there and wait till it has bitten before doing something to stop it. I think most of us can tell the difference between outright agression and a show of bravado.
Aileen

PS Pepsi suffered bites to her neck and forelegs, she never fought back as she is not like that, as luck would have it it has never changed her personallity at all though she is wary of dogs rushing in and will sit or cower dawn if they look like attacking her.

i carry a walking stick and will do whatever it takes to defend my dog if the situation calls for it.
I am not going to stand by helpless while my dog is killed in front of me by some feckless owners mutt.
education of useless owner is better and nicer but that can be done after their pride and joy has been prised off my dog.
thankfully have not had an incident in a long time but i am fully aware it can happen at any time

I wouldnt jump  on a dog if it was running upto mine ..if a dog was runnng at mine and it was obvious it was going to attack them then I would retaliate, I dont go chinning every dog that runs up to mine FGS ...but I have have been around long enough and have had enough dogs over the years to know the signs ..I love all animals and am not in the habit of abusing them but would protect mine with my all. No point in pussy fussing around, I would rather a dog run off with its tail between its legs than the blood of my dogs be spilt.
All this textbook piffle is useless if a dog has its jaws wrapped around your dogs throat !

In the first instance my boxer runs out to defuse the situation and wont let anything get to the Cavaliers ......but if it looks like they will, I pick up my dog.

I will use any force neccessary to get an attacking dog off on of mine and did several months ago when a bull terrier had my boxer in a grip and was pulling her down by her head. I punched it full between the eyes and it let go...my husband picked up the boxer while I kicked the Bully into next week.

Sorry folks but NO dog is going to rip my dogs face off while I stand and watch.
To those who feel I might 'mis-judge' the attack....Nah....dont think so!!

Yes I may get bitten but instinct kicks in and my urge to protect mine over-rides all.

Over the years I have noticed that if boxers get bitten it's generally by Jack Russel 'types'.

Just replying at the end...

Thanks for the advice from you all.  If this dog runs up again then I know it is going for the attack so will try to dissuade it any way I can and if that involves a boot then so be it, George has already been attacked twice and a third time is not going to be acceptable.  Luckily he has not changed his attitude towards other dogs.

Last night I hung around on the edge of the park as they were on with their dog playing ball and I didn't want to risk an attack so waited about 20 mins before I went on and George had a run   I hope this isn't how it's always going to be...us avoiding them and spoiling our walks.

I do feel for you, and it's such a shame that you're having to adjust you're walks around the dodgy dog. I posted my story because I wanted people to know that there are some responsible people with potentially dangerous dogs that are aware of the possibilites who try to manage them. I don't want to only walk my boy at unsociable hours because it doesn't suit me, or help in his rehabilitation, but I'm aware of his failings and do my best to mitigate them accordingly.

T

I think they have been trying to manage him over the last few years but I wasn't risking going anywhere near when he was free-running and my dog is hardly inconspicuous :D so he could have easily spotted him from a distance away.  It's just they were right in the middle of the park and so I couldn't really go the other way to avoid them.

They know he can be iffy but maybe they need to step up their awareness a bit.

> How many people can tell wheather a dog approaching them quickly is going to attack with intent to injure, may cause a bossy scuffle or just running up to say 'hi' or to play?
>
> I know that most people who meet Buster think his play-bow is a warning of assault ( ) so I think to kick a dog that you 'think' may attack your dog/you/your child is probably the most stupid thing you could do! It could initiate an attack on you that was previously unintended, it could initiate an attack on you when all that otherwise may of happened is a bit of male chest butting & macho-ness between dogs or simply an enthusiastic greeting. It is basically a good way to cause a fight of somesort especially when you are talking about the more powerfull breeds that are highly likely to actively defend thierselfs agianst violence.

You may think it is the most stupid thing anyone could do but I disagree.  Both my dogs are quite reactive and as such don't get free play with strange dogs (or highly strung people!) but I still stand by my statement.  I would also prefer to get between any dog coming at my dogs so it can't get to them as I am aware that if my breeds chose to retaliate the potential consequences would be severe.

I don't understand the relevance of you mentioning people's interpretations of Buster's play bow as you keep him on lead(s!) when you have him out so the chances of him being loose and running up to other dogs to attack/play/scuffle is pretty slim.  Unless of course i am not understanding and am missing the point which is entirely possible

> I don't understand the relevance of you mentioning people's interpretations of Buster's play bow as you keep him on lead(s!) when you have him out so the chances of him being loose and running up to other dogs to attack/play/scuffle is pretty slim.  Unless of course i am not understanding and am missing the point which is entirely possible

That is exactly my point! If people can think a play-bow from a leashed dog - with me saying 'it's OK he's friendly, he wants to play', is a sign of atrack, then there is massive room for error with people misinterpreting the behaviour of any approaching loose dog.
I am a little better than many dog owners that I meet when it comes to interperting a dogs body language but have myself worried about the behaviour of an approaching loose dog on several occasions. The one that really spings to mind is when, what appeared to be an oversized staffy-cross type dog, scrambled over it's fence to run at us full speed, it had a very tense & 'game' appearence.  If I had been stupid enough to kick the dog on its appraoch (rather than just being aware & ready for bad possibilities while also trying to edge things into a friendly, calm greeting with encouraging verbals ) then I most likely would have been subject to a nasty bite or two (whiilst also teaching my dog a negative association). However, the dog was just curious & a little wary, after having a tentative sniff of Buster he went on his way.

If people want to batter the living daylights out of any dog that is actually attaking thier dog, then that is a different matter, but please be aware of the damage one can cause by trying to break uup a dog fight using force. I learnt the hard way & after repeadedly beating my own dog (I dog I had years ago), as he had his jaws clamped around the neck of my friends dog, I found that hitting him was not doing anything other than making him more determined, so I resorted to pulling him off by his choke-chain - lifting him upwards so he had to let go to breath - that tore the other dogs neck to pieces and put him in intensive care for 5 days. My heavy-handed way to break up the fight caused far more damage than if I had let them to it.
I must admit to using Toolz techinique of punching a dog on the head to get it to realse my dog (after it came into my garden & attacked my dog), that took several hard blows to the dogs head to get him to release, with that method my dog was only left with 4 clean puncture wounds.
However, I would not use that sort of thing to break up a dog fight now, there are other ways that do not invlove hitting, but it means keeping a clear, calm head - not easy to do in those situations. I thank Buster for teaching me calmness and teaching me what can be achieved by staying calm.