Im thinkng of getting a Doberman pup from Ireland which has a docked tail,
would i still be able to show him here in the uk?
thanks

http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/cgi-bin/item.cgi?id=979

The above seems to answer your question, not sure if the Doberman are one of the breeds where docking is allowed. I will see if I can find out for you.

EDIT: just looked and it seems that only Gundogs may be docked as working dogs and not the Doberman - importing a puppy may cause you lots of problems and it may be best to ask for the tail to be left un-docked if you are wishing to show.

Thanks for your help,

It will limit you to showing only at shows that do not levy a fee for the public entrance to shows.

The only dogs that can be docked in UK now are basically working gundogs and terriers, not dog in the working group.

This is another thing that is stopping people improving on breeds. I've been offered two reallynice males from Spain to get them noticed here in this country I would want to show them and unfortunately I can't so I have had to decline the offers.  Yes I could get people interested n them but not so easily as I could have if they'd been allowed to go in the show ring.

I show docked dogs .. only 6 UK Ch Sh scheduled in 2010 charge an entrance fee so vast majority of shows can be entered by a legally docked dog i.e one docked in Uk under the exemption OR a dog imported from a counrty which permits docking.

K

When it comes to Crufts though then anything docked after April 2007 I think it is can't be shown there, is that right?

Crufts definitely charges for entrance so no dogs born and docked after April 2007 can be shown.

No can't go to Crufts .. its irritating that the "Crufts Qualified" and "Fit for Purpose " gundogs can't go, but over the years I have only been to about 50% of the shows qualified for as an exhibitor anyway so not the end of the world.
To me our breed club shows are more important.

K

Although our breed is one that can still be legally docked, many exhibitor/breeders have stopped docking. 

However there are a few that continue to show their docked dogs and they have plenty of shows to choose from.. real shame re Crufts and this silly rule about working dogs being allowed to be docked but not shown is just stupid and will do nothing but harm to the genuine dual purpose breeds... load of nonsense...

how can scotland have a total ban on docking (no working dog exemption) yet no rule about showing and england have something different and equally stupid!

I've been offered two reallynice males from Spain to get them noticed here in this country I would want to show them and unfortunately I can't so I have had to decline the offers.  Yes I could get people interested n them but not so easily as I could have if they'd been allowed to go in the show ring.

But if they were docked in Spain they were legally docked and then can be shown at shows that don't charge the public to get in, and there's a fair few now that doesn't.

Unfortunately it is nothing to do with the kennel club or show societies it is the legislators that have decided this.

Oh I know Barbara, wasn't suggesting it was... not much of a Labour fan, is that obvious?!

There's one in my region, I can't afford to travel the whole country, so unfortunately there are not that many shows to enter, especially as I like to support the open shows, of which I cannot do with a docked dog!  Saying that I have never ever been charged to go and watch at an open show!

Of course you can show a legally docked dog at open shows. I have two schedules right in front of me that says the usual phrase about only undocked and legally docked dogs can be entered, so a docked import could definitely be entered.

See this is where I get mixed up with being a thicko LOL!  I just thought that we now in reality couldn't enter open shows as they would charge an entry fee to visitors, though usually when you get there nobody is at the door.

If a show charges the public an entry fee then the statement on the front of the schedule has to be different to those that dont

For shows held in England The statement to be included on the front outside cover or title page is, "A dog
docked on or after the 6th April 2007 may not be entered for exhibition at this
show."

For shows held in Wales. The statement to be included on the front outside cover or title page is,
"A dog docked on or after the 28th March 2007 may not be entered for
exhibition at this show."

So a quick guide would be if they state the cut off date they will be chaging an entrance fee for the public

I do wonder the sort of mind that came up with this rule, what difference does it make to the dog, tail or not, if someone pays to enter or pays to park the car.

It would seem the person who came up with this rule thinks that paying to be a spectator somehow effects ones eye sight - if you enter free you don't notice if a dog has a tail but if you pay you suddenly do.

lol@ Nova. The weird and wonderful world of rules & regs! You are so right!

The first time a dobe' with a docked tail, I couldn't work out what was different with him, eventually I noticed the tail.  It curled it a beautiful full circle but didn't seem to fit the look of the dog ( or down to what familiar maybe) i can see why they're tail used to be docked for working purposes, it would have got caught up.  I don't think the dog benifits from that now.

So can dogs that were docked before the cut off still able to show but if docked after it can't show at all.

As I understand it a docked dog can't be shown at a show where the spectator pays to go in but at shows where the spectator does not pay a legally docked dog can be shown.

For legally docked dog I read one that was docked before the cut off date, is imported from somewhere it is still legal or is a working dog that has been docked by a vet and issued a certificate to that effect.

>As I understand it a docked dog can't be shown at a show where the spectator pays to go in but at shows where the spectator does not pay a legally docked dog can be shown.

Dogs docked before the 'cutoff' (always makes me chuckle!) date can be shown at any show. Dogs docked legally after the date can only be shown at shows where the public don't pay an admission fee.

Thank you JG knew I would get it wrong somewhere.

> rules & regs! You are so right!

unfortunately it is a law imposed by parliament not a rule or reg thought up by the KC.

Can anyone remind me of the actual requirement for docking a litter now?  There is a discussion at the moment on another site along similar lines to this, and I have a feeling someone is giving inaccurate info - I though that you needed  proof of parents working capabilities signed by gamekeeper or similar, but they have posted that to have their current litter docked the only requirement was that they could sign on the form to say they had a gun licence and that the pups would work.  This poster has frequently given less than accurate (or appropriate) info on the forum before, so would like to have this confirmed.

Regulations here, Gwen. As I read it, the poster is probably right?

M.

Gwen the information is correct . If the owner of the dog has shotgun certificate then that is classed as one of the accepted evidences under the law. You must sign to say you INTEND the pups to :: work for emergancy rescue, police, customs or with armed forces (typically as sniffer dogs), Lawful pest control, or Lawful shooting of animals.  

K

To be honest its a totally pointless law. The number of illegally docked puppies we have seen at the vets is vast, hardly any have chips or certificates and defra isn't interested. Whats the point of a law if no one is interested when its broken?

There really seems little point in making laws that can't be policed. Before this can be sorted the control of breeding and the sale of puppies needs to be dealt with, puppies are bought and sold like S/H cars and to trace who did the deed is almost impossible. At least this is one thing the show fraternity cannot be blamed for as in most cases they are obeying the law although many do not agree with it.

We went to a show earler this year that whilst did not charge any entry fees - they DID charge £10 for parking, so how is that for getting around the 'showing of docked dogs' law?

Yes, said earlier I am not sure how paying to enter effects the eye sight. Still at least the dogs that are docked will be legally docked most before the law came in. Would think that show society cannot afford to lose the entry fees by excluding those dogs docked before the cut off date so they have to add the entry fee to the car park one. Just an example of a daft piece of drafting.

Vets normally will not dock unless they have proof the dam of the puppies is working.

A gun licience on its own is not proof that the puppies are going to be used for working. If the dam doesn't work how on earth are you going to determine at three or four days old that these puppies are suitable to work.  The vet's job is on the line and because of this not many vets will agree to dock any dog. 

A pointless law and a sure way to cause a breed to have separate working and show strains thereby causing more problems than before!
Jeff.

Yes Nova I too was wondering how paying affects what I am allowed to see b.... ridiculous. Being a novice here I assume that in theory that would mean that any dog in the future that gets to crufts would not necessarily be BOB  because docked dogs could be denied entry and just have a full tail because I paid to see it if that makes sense

The only ones in Crufts would be of a certain age or a natural bob.

> only 6 UK Ch Sh scheduled in 2010 charge an entrance fee

I'm just wondering which 6?  It would save me trawling through entry forms etc to find out.  I know that Windsor charge, don't they?  Can we compile a list?

>A gun licience on its own is not proof that the puppies are going to be used for working. If the dam doesn't work how on earth are you going to determine at three or four days old that these puppies are suitable >to work.

Actually, this is untrue.  There is a very specific list of criteria which a breeder can provide to have puppies docked, and one of them is a current firearms licence.  This is accepted as valid proof that the puppies "are most likely" to be used for working purposes.  (Whether or not we agree that it is proof, this is what the law will accept.)

See here:  (vii)a current shotgun or firearm certificate issued to the owner of the dog, or to the agent or employee of the owner most likely to be using the dog for work in connection with the lawful shooting of animals;

Taken from here:  http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2007/1120/regulation/3/made

Without a licence, instead fulfilling any of these criteria will suffice as well:

viii) a letter from a gamekeeper, a land-occupier (or his agent), a person with shooting rights, a shoot organiser, a club official, a person representing the National Working Terrier Federation, or a person engaged in lawful pest control, stating that the breeder of the dog whose tail is to be docked is known to him and that dogs bred by that breeder have been used (as the case may be) on his land, or in his shoot, or for pest control.

You'll also notice the recurrence of the phrase "most likely" - that is, the vet does not need to be 150% certain that each individual puppy will be used for working.  But has to believe it is "most likely" that the dog will be used in this way.

It does us no good at all to scaremonger vets into thinking their jobs are on the line.  They are not.

The shows that charge an entrance fee in 2011 will be ::
Crufts
Windsor
East of England
Leeds and
LKA

In 2010 Bournemouth charged an entrance fee but have dropped it for 2011 )

K

Great, thanks!

Darlington Ch show charges for car parking. does that count?

No thats why they charge for car parking to avoid charging an entry fee.

Thats what i wondered

Hi, you need to look at section 6 of the animal welfare act. Basically you can't show a dog that has had it's tail docked in a dog show to which members of the public are paying an entry fee unless to demonstrate it's working ability. This exemption is for working gun dog displays etc. You can ask a vet to legally dock a puppies tail if the dog is likely to be used for the purposes of law enforcement, rescue, activities of her majesty's armed forces, lawful pest control or the lawful shooting of animals. It is also an offence under section 6(12) to give false information to a vet to obtain a docking certificate. Section 6(9) gives an explanation in regards to showing. Under the Awa a Doberman can never be classed as a working dog eligible for docking by a vet in this country. Hope this answers your question

Regulation 3(1)(a)SCHEDULE 1 Specified Types of Dog Hunt point retrieve breeds of any type or combination of types.
Spaniels of any type or combination of types.
Terriers of any type or combination of types.

What a joke!!

So reading that, any terrier or spaniel can be docked.
So would that would make it possible that a Tibetan Terrier or Tibetan spaniel can be legally docked??
Who would want to do that to these breeds!!!!! I know they aren't in terrier or Gundog groups and the TT is a complete misnomer but, Hey come on!!

> Who would want to do that to these breeds!!!!! I know they aren't in terrier or Gundog groups and the TT is a complete misnomer

I think you have answered your own question

As you say they are not terriers even if it's in their name so it doesn't apply, as they are not likely to be used for Terrier or Gundog work.

Haaa, Good point well made Stooge;o)
senior moment!!