Hi,

It's been a while since I posted on here, so I hope everyone is okay.  On Saturday I received a notice of Kennel club registration of a litter, listing the sire as my dog.  My dog is not the Sire, as he has not been used as stud since early 2009, the letter quotes a date of mating of July 2010.  I have notified the kennel club and they have put a stop against the litter, they have said that whilst the litter is registered a change of ownership by the new owners cannot happen.  They have contacted the gentlemen concerned and it is down to him to prove that my dog is the sire, well I know that it is impossible for him to do so.  They said that it may come to them doing a DNA test on the puppies, and whoever is wrong pays the bill, I know I have nothing to worry about.  What concerns me more than anything is these poor puppies and their new owners, they will be buying puppies that they believe have an excellent pedigree, which is not the case at all, and may never know this if they don't transfer the ownership, which as we know people don't always do.  Can I take any action against this man?  At the same time though if he doesn't manage to sell them, what will happen to the poor things? I am so so angry, just don't know what to do.  It is more than likely that the real sire is not kennel club regd and may (don't like to say it) be inter-breeding.  If anyone can offer any advice, I really would appreciate it.
Thank you

I would imagine that the KC can take action against the person fraudulently trying to register puppies.

As for the pups themselves, they are no different and in the same situation as hundreds of unregistered litters, and their fate is the same with no caring breeder to fall back on..

I do feel for you and can imagine the multitude of feeling you must be suffering but it is not your fault and you have done the right thing, had you not reported it he may well have continued and yet more pups would be fraudulently bred and sold. Agree that the people who buy this litter may not get what they thought but I think you will have to leave it to the KC to deal with.

how peculiar, wouldn't he expect to get caught? could it possibly be and admin error with a similar name?
I'm sure the kennel club should act on this as it is a fraud in their system but might you have some grounds legally as it could affect your reputation if people think these pup carry your line and are not of a standard you want to be associated with? 
also, I thought you had to have the stud owners signature to register a litter, was that faked too? if it was missing then the KC would be a fault for letting it through.

>I thought you had to have the stud owners signature to register a litter, was that faked too?

Not if it's done online.

But they need your males KC number dont they? I thought they wouldnt be able to register the litter? Majority of pet homes dont even bother to transfer names so hes won there.

Could it be that perhaps he has simply typed the wrong Reg no. for the stud...and never notice?

My boy sired a litter 2 weeks ago. bitches owner phoned me for KC reg no. to register online, but noticed it listed a different dog.. and phoned me again while online.. she had transposed two of the numbers when writing them down.

I may be wrong but I think you can do it on line too if you have the dogs stud book number, as an alternative to a KC no.

What a thing to do though   I'd be livid too. 

I hope you can get it sorted out. 

He had my dogs kc number, as we had tried to use him as stud 2 years ago. (Unfortunately my poor boy, was not really interested in the girls, so didn't result in a pregnancy). The dam concerned had all the correct paper work, testing etc, they were a good match for each other.  He also regd a litter to my dog earlier in the year, which I informed the KC of but it was not acted on, they are now investigating both litters.  Incidently the dog I saw with all the correct paper work, is not the dam of this litter he has regd.  Also claims to have had a litter of 9, which whilst not impossible for my breed is unlikely.  I suspect it is 2 litters being regd under 1 dam.  The line my dog comes from, goes generations back and has a very good name in the show ring, this could do some real damage to the name.  I just can't quite believe that there are some evil people out there and whilst angry am also very upset. 

>>>>I thought you had to have the stud owners signature to register a litter, was that faked too?

Not if it's done online.>>>>

If the litters registered online though then the stud owner normally gets a letter from KC

> If the litters registered online though then the stud owner normally gets a letter from KC

and this is what has happened here and why crofty has found out about it.  Or have I misunderstood?

That's how I understand it anyway.

What worries me though is that the Registration Documents will have already been sent out - they don't wait for a response from studs owner before printing them.  I know this will get picked up when the transfers are done, but we all know that a great many people don't bother to transfer papers.

The poor new puppy owners, they may be purchasing the puppy after knowing the sire of the litter has good breeding etc and they are not now going to get the puppy they are expecting.

I really hope the KC prosecute this person and set an example.   Makes you wonder how often this happens?

Yes it was the letter from the KC that brought it to my attention.  I asked the KC if it happens very often and they assure me it is very rare. Yes all the papers for the puppies have been sent out, so when the new owners hand over their money they wont know there is a problem until they try to transfer the ownership.

Our opinion of very rare is probably very different to the Kennel Clubs!

To get this clear, you actually Know this gentleman, have in fact already let him use your dog at stud?
He has already tried this fraudulant attempt to register pups before and this is his second offence?

The KC are then reasonable in suggesting a DNA test in this instance because, to them and with your previous relationship, this could see this as a friends dispute rather than an admin failure.

Sorry just playing devils advocate here as I first read that this was a one-off out of the blue occurence.

I would call this person's bluff, threaten to have ask the KC to DNA some pups and inform him that you will act on the findings in court!

I take it then he is part of the breed club? Especially if you have taken your boy there a few years back now id of guessed he is..

I'd be making contact with them and also if he is in the ABS then making contact with them too..

the breeder I got my boy from has had issues with fraudulent use of her dogs details in pedigrees and now has a warning statement on her webiste.  It is probably not as rare as it would appear.   http://zorgs-rottweilers.webeden.co.uk/#/fraudulent-pedigree/4529818263

Yes I know who he is, from 2 years back.  Fortunately I kept all his details, and I agree that the KC could see it as a friends dispute.  I can assure you that it is not the case at all and this gentleman is making a fraudulent claim to register the pups. There are nine puppies, but how will the KC get him to allow them to DNA test them? If he sells them all and they are with new owners, nothing will happen until they try to transfer ownership & will they then want to go through the process of DNA?  I can just see him getting away with it. My dog is now endorsed, just which I had done it sooner.

If he registered them relatively late - then pups could very well be on their way to new homes now and then what happens?

Unless they try to transfer the ownership the KC have no way of knowing who he sold the pups to.

The owners will have puppies with false documents, not unlike the many made up sets used by pseudo registries that have ancestry that is a work of fiction, only thing is it will look official.

If you have a website page for your boy I would put a notice saying he has not sired a litter from X bitch born on x date or you could list what litters he has sired and make ti clear that any others are not by him.

Anyone interested enough to do some pedigree research should then see it.

I would hope the Kennel Club make a real example of him as this undermines the integrity of the registration system.

It is quite likely they will as in the past they have been pretty severe in cases of false registrations.

I would contact all the breed clubs to make them aware, and perhaps the Dog Papers would be interested.

Denese, crofty has already said she knows exactly who it is, and so do theKC.

It would seem that the man is relying on the fact the KC are unwilling/unable to act so I suppose he will use your dogs KC reg number for all future dodgey litters. Why wouldnt he? It suits his needs.

You could try to pressurise the KC on the grounds of health testing if either or both parents have any results on their database, the sale of these pups with health test results are fraudulent especially with KC/BVA certs.

Im afraid I would have been throwing my weight around in your position after the first episode of this sorry tale.

May I ask, did he pay you a stud fee for the first attempted mating?

A letter isn't always sent though... My boy has been used at stud several times now and bitch owners registering online. I have NEVER received a letter asking if he has sired a litter.

> A letter isn't always sent though... My boy has been used at stud several times now and bitch owners registering online. I have NEVER received a letter asking if he has sired a litter

I too, have never received any communication from the KC when litters by my boys have been registered online

How awful for you and others that this fraud has happened to. The only way to ensure that your dog cannot be used in this way would be to put an endorsement on him. That way pups would be refused registration. The trouble with that is you would have the trouble of lifting the restriction every time you used your lad but bearing in mind this person has used your dogs details before it may be the only way to stop him. The KC really should get their act together and start taking action against these people,

Kind Regards

What a nightmare.  I would certainly be reporting him to any and all breed clubs.  And as someone else suggested I would put a note on your website stating that your dog has only sired litters to the following bitches:  xxxxx and any other registrations are false - people can then contact you if they wish.  I would push hard for the KC to follow up.  Certainly they should ban him from registering ANY puppies for at least a set period of time if not for life, and he should be fined.

I personally wouldn't stop till I knew they were actively doing something even if it did take me putting money down for the complaint - you know you are right, so you will get the money back.  If all the puppies are not sold at least they can try to get him to test what he has left - if he has nothing to hide (which of course he does) then he shouldn't have a problem with that...

Actually that isn't a bad idea as endorsements only require a letter to put on or lift.  Bit of a faff, but a good safeguard and might actually get the KC to think things out better re fraudulent use of a dogs details, when they are having to put and take off endorsements regularly.

I haven't owned a stud dog cine on-line reg. came in, but when I have used a dog and registered on-line the stud owner has definitely been written to.

That is terrible, my parents have recently had a litter and kept back a boy and all the puppies have breeding restrictions on even the boy they kept, the stud owners advised us to do it for 2 reasons, the first was in case my parents died and the dogs had to be re- homed and stopped them being bred willy nilly and the second reason was to stop any as you have found fraudulent litters being registered.

Could you not inform the places that the litter is being advertised on about what is happening and get the adds pulled? I know it doesn't sort out the problem but at least Jo public doesnt think that your boy is the sire.

I am wondering if Trading Standards might be interested as the puppies are demonstrably not as advertised.

You know what Crofty, I think that you need to go to the dog papers about this too, see if they will allow an article or do one on your behalf.

I knoew it makes life easier but they need to stop allowing online registrations OR they have something in place where every time a registration request is done they make contact with the owner of sire to confirm.. They need stronger measures in place to prevent this..
DO make a fuss and DO go to all places in which you can name and shame this man, what he is doing and how the system with the KC is flawed!!!

I'd hate to think this can happen and quite clearly it does and from the looks of things even if mating has taken place people who own the sires are still not getting checked and confirmation on mating...

Can't find a link but a very well known GSD breeder was banned in 1998 - I think for life - for registering pups with false pedigrees, if the KC did that then they should/could do same nowadays.
Chris

That is one of the cases I was thinking of, as it was high profile, but I am sure they take action that we don't hear so much about, or I hope they do.

just posting to the end...
I think the online registering is great but they should definitely make it so that the stud owner "signs" for it before it all goes through.
Totally different case but our deposit for the previous house was held by these deposit protection people.
When the tenancy ended the landlord declared online how much deposit we should receive back and we were send an email with log in code to go and say if we approve/agree what the landlord says and only then was the deposit released and put in our account and the landlord received an email saying all has now been done.

Surely something like this would not be too difficult to do with the registrations?
KC hold details of who owns each dog so owners email could be saved with the dogs details just like an address is?
I would think most people now days have email addresses and only very few who don't could be sent paper letter...
If your dog is used you should of course ensure KC holds the current email address but that should not be too difficult.

you would surely think the kc would NOT issue any paperwork for online puppies until the owner of the alleged sire had been contacted first and confirmed the actual mating! surely not a hard thing to do????????

I have had the papers back within 3 days of applying, so no they don't check first, but assume they issue the letters at the same time.  Bit shutting stable door after horse bolting, but the whole idea was to speed up the process.

At the very least, it seems daft that the letter is sent but no grace period is given to object. I've used the online system myself and been hugely impressed with the speed of receiving registrations - but would quite understand this being extended as it is illogical when you look at it from this angle. How can the KC just accept that you're denying the mating took place but let the registrations stand?

M.

I am surprised the KC aren't taking this more seriously.

Okay, so playing devil's avocado - from their viewpoint it could be a dispute between stud owner and bitch owner (which does sometimes happen).

But surely potential fraud is much worse and should not be taken so lightly? Nothing else undermines the KC's reputation and raison d'etre than falsifying paperwork, as it makes a mockery of the many generations faithfully recorded by honest breeders and the work being done by breed clubs (who trust the KC to keep accurate records for historical and health purposes).

I am very surprised that they allow litters to be registered without proof of mating signed by the stud owner, for the sake of expediency.... then aren't hot on the trail of an anomaly when it does occur.

Another example of why the KC should be dragged into the 21st C and require DNA profiling for all parents and offspring BEFORE registration.  This is not as uncommon as it seems, nor is the registration of litters by dog X when in fact it was dog B that was the actual sire.

Whenever i have registered a litter online i always receive my paperwork before the stud dog owner gets a litter the KC never seem to wait.

Also something to think about , when people ask for a copy of your males pedigree or health tests remember your dogs KC number is on it, i always make a copy tippex the number off then re-copy so no-one has my boys number unless i give it to them.

Just food for thought.

I hope you get this sorted out soon in your favour

Peanuts

> Another example of why the KC should be dragged into the 21st C and require DNA profiling for all parents and offspring BEFORE registration.

Actually, that's a good point. Perhaps anyone offering a dog at open stud might like to get the dog's DNA profile recorded, and say it has been done on documents and website... That might deter any fraudsters!

Good idea to get a stud dog's DNA profile done. However when using the KC service for this I found I was paying for them to keep my dog's DNA profile on their database and it was not provided to the owner of the dog. Although I got a certificate to say it had been done!Therefore another time I would look into using a different service of my own choice so I had access to his DNA profile for my own use if needed. Does this mean if there are any problems arising then any further requirements are financially locked into the KC Services? Anyone else have any thoughts or experience with this?

Use the AHT for DNA sample storage.

Thanks for the info. I just had a quick look at the AHT collection form and see the samples become the property of the AHT and can be forwarded to the KC. On top of the AHT charge for their service samples can only be submitted if collected by a Vet, so another charge incurred for that.

Ask your breed club to start a DNA sample scheme via the AHT?  Brings the cost down alot.  Or look to the USA for DNA storage and profiling, it is done there as a matter of course for frequently used sires and dual sired litters anyway.  Maybe the CHIC registry can help.  This is the one I use as mine are tested for DM as they offer a generic test for the condition.  http://www.caninehealthinfo.org/dnabank.html

I already looked at the AKC website and see they offer a certificate with the DNA profile actually on it for the dog's owner to hold.

The DNA profile is done through the CHIC registry (via the University of Missouri I think).  Their bucal swabs are very simple to use, it is a sponge swab and a special paper that shows immediately if you have a good sample to send.  And it can be done through the mail as once the sample is on the paper it will not decay for a very long time.  And the sponge swab is comfortable for the dog unlike the brush swab they use for the AHT / KC samples. 

Just out of interest how much does a DNA sample cost ?

I haven't bothered to DNA profile my dogs, but all are ear tattooed and chipped.

Don't see the point in DNA profiling the parents unless the puppies have to be DNA profiled before registration, but then the sampling would have to be done by an independent third party.

Unfortunately from the KC Bank Managers point of view this would mean a huge drop in KC registrations as it would be expensive to do, probably adding about £50 to the costs of rearing each puppy..

My friend would like me to point out here.... its actually £25 for DNA sample with the KC. (She works there but shes not a member here.)

So how much does it cost now ? Surely if there was a bigger market to have DNA tests done that would drive the price down  ? I think anything to quantify quality of KC registered dogs to me is a plus for serious buyers of puppies and will show the KC are serious in being leaders of the whole breeding ethos they are working towards. Add on that all breeds must have specified health tests done defined per breed club and ratified by the breed clubs ( how that would be done is another question ! ) would only help the reputation of the KC, pedigree dogs and breeders ?

I must admit I am still sitting on the fence to whether I would consider showing and then possibily breeding. I must admit I would want to see some more changes before I started to slide off the fence as there seems to be too many holes in regulation and standards. I know so much has been done and is in progress but some more key decisions I think still have to be made