In my breed we have all colours allowed but there is no way I would use this method as a puppy at 4 weeks is quite invariably a completely different colour at 8 weeks on collection, I can imagine the conversation with the new owner when the brown puppy identified at 4 wk with DNA is brown sable at 8 wks For it to work there needs to be permanent id at the time of collection of DNA sample. I certainly would not want the Pet passport scheme run on individual markings so why would DNA identification be any different

This paperwork is only there to identify parentage. If they all come back as the same sire then the situation is moot, and you can register them the correct colour at the time of registration.
It sounds as if you would not normally place or register  until 10 weeks as you wait to decide what colour they are.

What would those in your breed do if you had an oops litter themselves. Bitch found to be in whelp but you have two or three possible stud dogs that are closely related. Would you not register them until after 8 weeks.
In a DNA ID case you probally would not be able to place them in new homes until 12+ weeks as you would have to wait for the dogs to be identified, then do the DNA test and then wait for that result before you can register them. Registration has to be a paper one, not online and as the KC advocates having the KC registration documents before placing them in their new homes (especially if you want your breeding restrictions upheld). Depending on the time of year it can take 4 weeks for registrations to be processed, let alone the DNA results.

If you get multiple colours and are doing the DNA profile it is so that you can identify which sample belongs to which dog, same if you eye test a litter at 6 weeks. if you only have one brown dog, does it matter if it eventually comes out brown sable or brown. It is much the same with orange roans and orange and whites. But if you have a patch over a particular place on the body that is distinctive or a white on a chest then you can identify the dogs correctly.
If you want the dogs profile to be updated with its perminant details later you can do so with the correct KC name, registration details and colour.

My puppies are microchipped at 8 wks before leaving, if any puppies when I eye screen at 6 wks were affected then they would be chipped as an individual at time of testing (thankfully I haven't been in that position), the original reply I posted was in response to a poster who said puppies should be DNAed 'at birth'.
I am all for DNA testing for the purposes of identifying individuals and their parentage if carried out in an official capacity by an accountable professional but I am disappointed that the KC will accept it without permanent id verified (microchipping or tattoo) & collection of samples carried out by a lay person!, in fact it makes a mockery of the whole system and leaves it open to abuse by the unscrupulous. 
If I was to have a 'accidental' litter where sire was in question then I would accept that those puppies would be placed later when parentage was confirmed. I as a buyer from such a litter would want to be 100% certain that the puppy I was buying had verified parentage and would accept that in order to be 100% certain the puppy would be need be be permanently identified prior to sample to link result into the sample supplied.
Angela

Hey everyone,
It is disgusting that people will go to these lengths for monetary gain but the problem is the Kennel Club. A breeder has the litter for at least 8 weeks, that is plenty time for the Kennel Club to inform the stud owner and get confirmation from them BEFORE posting out the documents. The fact that they don't do this as standard is preposterous! I think complaints/petitions should be sent to the Kennel Club to get them to change their procedure and to ONLY issue papers when the Sire is confirmed by it's owner.

As for this man, because you know his details etc I would check all of the advertising pages (epupz, pets4homes etc etc) and if you find him advertising puppies on there then report him to the site and they will (hopefully) remove him.

Unfortunately the Kennel Club are not very thorough at all. My mother-in-law was going to buy a puppy a while ago that she thought was a KC Reg red brindle, she is an experienced breeder and knew that brindle is a pattern and not a colour and so therefore at LEAST one parent MUST be the pattern to produce the pattern. She got the KC names of the pup and the parents of the pup and called the Kennel Club to check what colour the parents were listed under - only to be told that they were listed as a Chocolate and a Black and Tan. The Kennel Club didn't even think to question this until she said "how can they be the parents of a brindle then? Brindle is a pattern, not a colour." The secretary then went away to get advice about this and came back to my mother-in-law saying she was right and they would investigate.

The problem is though, had it of been a less experienced person they would have been ripped off as my mother-in-law was going to be paying double the normal price due to the rare pattern/colour. Someone else probably was

"It is disgusting that people will go to these lengths for monetary gain but the problem is the Kennel Club. A breeder has the litter for at least 8 weeks, that is plenty time for the Kennel Club to inform the stud owner and get confirmation from them BEFORE posting out the documents. The fact that they don't do this as standard is preposterous!"

I agree entirely with your view doxidaze but the KC, as a Private Members Club, has rules in place so that the owner of the sire has no rights in the registration process. So therefore they need give no consideration to the stud dog owner.

The KC could insist that the signature of the stud dog owner be obtained at the time the mating took place to a named stud dog, this then must be available to them if requested. However they have never made this a rule which leaves them free to register a litter immediately with the sire named by the breeder making the application.

Better still the KC could insist on a "notice of mating" having taken place with the potential sire and dam given. The stud dog owner's signature that the mating had taken place would then be obtained well in advance of any application to register the litter.

I gather under FCI registration rules official proper documentation and stud agreements must change hands at the time of mating. These are then examined in cases of doubt or dispute. However our KC are not interested in any such documentation which leaves them free to act under their own registration rules to their own desire.

>The KC could insist that the signature of the stud dog owner be obtained at the time the mating took place to a named stud dog, this then must be available to them if requested. However they have never made this a rule which leaves them free to register a litter immediately with the sire named by the breeder making the application.

With paper registration form the owner of the sire does sign to confirm that the mating has taken place. In this instance online registration is a retrograde step.

> The KC could insist that the signature of the stud dog owner be obtained at the time the mating took place to a named stud dog, this then must be available to them if requested. However they have never made this a rule which leaves them free to register a litter immediately with the sire named by the breeder making the application.
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Actually they do ask that you get a form 1 signed by the stud owner in case of any query.

As far as I know they are supposed to inform the stud owner that a registration has been completed (it only takes seconds and papers usually back within a week).

So the only issue seems to be that some stud owners are not getting their notifications in a timely fashion and this needs looking at.  All the stud owners I know and have asked have had their notifications.

A problem arises of course if the breeder registers the litter at the last minute say a week or so before they leave, thereby not leaving enough time to challenge the registration for the new owners to realise.  Of course any that transfer the registration would find out there was an issue but with a lot of owners never doing so they won't know, but the breeder should not get away with it as long as it is queried.

As for the colours, the staff at the KC handling the registrations are clerical staff, many of whom may have little or no canine/genetic knowledge and the only way to pick impossible colourways/patterns is to change the computer program to flag it up.

If only the KC made their registration free and open to view with and ongoing registration data etc like the Finnish (Koiranet) one it would be easy for anyone interested to keep an eye out for inconsistencies as they occur, not having to wait months for a BRS for anyone that has chosen to buy them to go through.  By that time it is months down the road.

Quote:
"Online Litter Registration
Before you begin

Information you need and things you need to do before you start
 
Stud Book/Kennel Club Registration Number of the Sire.
Kennel Club registered name of the Sire, excluding titles but including punctuation.
Written confirmation of the mating from the Sire's Owner(s). The Kennel Club will automatically issue confirmation to the registered Sire's Owner(s) to advise that their dog has been used for the Online Litter Registration.
If you are a member of the Accredited Breeder Scheme, your litter will be registered subject to compliance with the scheme requirements. Full details can be found in the Terms and Conditions section below.
We strongly recommend that you read the Terms and Conditions before proceeding. Failure to comply with the Terms and Conditions may prevent the successful registration of your online litter application. You should pay particular attention to Clause 12 regarding the placing of endorsements - and the requirement that you obtain a receipt for the written notice of the endorsement from the puppy buyer - failure to do so may mean it will be lifted irrespective of your wishes.

The Kennel Club reserves the right to reject any application, cancel or suspend any registration already made. The acceptance of a registration is not a guarantee of its accuracy.

Please note that the data connected to your dog, including all health screening results submitted with your application will be published and used for registration, research (statistical purposes) and publication in relevant Kennel Club documentation and also included in the Health Test Result Finder and Mate Select calculations.

Please note, our Terms and Conditions and Kennel Club Rules and Regulations may be amended from time to time, when an amendment is made the relevant section will be updated accordingly."

As for the colours, the staff at the KC handling the registrations are clerical staff, many of whom may have little or no canine/genetic knowledge and the only way to pick impossible colourways/patterns is to change the computer program to flag it up.

You'd have thought that would be no problem though. The GCCF also has non-cat staff, they are always saying how they need a better computer system, their computers can't cope with this and that (it's often said their computers can't do things the KC computers can!), but try registering a kitten of a colour the parents cannot have produced and the application will instantly be rejected as their computer DOES pick up on it.

"With paper registration form the owner of the sire does sign to confirm that the mating has taken place. In this instance online registration is a retrograde step."

I believe it should be a mandatory requirement at the time of mating. Obviously the KC have introduced a possible loophole that can be exploited when online registration became available.

Attempts can still be made to register litters using paper applications with forged signatures and other falsified details.

From post by Brainless -"Actually they do ask that you get a form 1 signed by the stud owner in case of any query."
I don't believe asking is enough, I don't see any reason it should not be a definite requirement.

Think time is the problem in a lot of cases, how often do we have irate puppy purchasers complaining that the KC papers are not through when they collect their puppy. On-line registration has speeded matters up no end and I don't think it is likely people will want to go back to relying on the post.

Quite, had to do my last litter by post as used an overseas dog and the whole thing took over three weeks compared to a turn around of a week or so.

13 years ago it took 7 weeks to get the regsitrations back for a November litter which I applied for when a few days old.

It's in the breeders interest to get the signed form1 (though I'll admit I haven't bothered as I trust my friends) but without the signature if the stud dog owner then fell out with bitch owner and denied the mating, the breeder would have nothing to prove otherwise.

I got a signed form both times, then did the registration online, I am pretty sure the SDO got asked to confirm.

Brindle does not always show up well on a bl/tan dog, it can be mistaken for "muddy points" to the inexperienced owner/breeder.