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Previous Next Up Topic Dog Boards / General / A step forward to stop puppy farming in Wales (Page 6)
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By Brainless (*****) [gb] Date 05.11.10 16:40 GMT Edited 05.11.10 16:43 GMT

> Perhaps you need to visit a puppy farm then you would see how totally uncaring that remark is. A sledgehammer is needed because its far more than a nut that has to be cracked. Its not aimed at people who keep dogs in clean conditions and look after them, its not 'targeting' hobby breeders,


Then why are you trying to have included those who are not puppy farmers or large scale breeders by including small scale breeders?

> Many hundreds of similar folk......so just how many puppies are bred each year then from these 'many hundreds' of hobby breeders?
>
>


As said before only 1 litter in 100 registered with the kennel club are from volume breeders.

The kennel club registrations were 271,719  in 2008, just assuming taking all breed into account a litter size of 6, would give 45287 litters, giving 452 litters (2712 puppies)  produced by volume breeders, (now I can't find the article to see what they counted as a volume breeder, but I am sure if you write in they can tell you, it may be 5 litters plus or might be 10).

So the many hundreds of low volume breeders would be most of the 90% of litters registered with the KC.
Barbara and the Grey Curly Tails.
By pat (**) [gb] Date 05.11.10 17:05 GMT
I within this thread pointed out an ABS breeder who registers some litters with the KC of the breed that this individual is registered as an ABS breeder for but does not register with the KC the other two breeds that this individual is known to have bred from because they do not register these with the KC.  How many others are up to the same dirty tricks that will be counted as small breeders on the KC list that you are refering to when in fact of over 30 breeding bitches are a volume breeder, a Council licensed and ABS one at that.
By Brainless (*****) [gb] Date 05.11.10 17:09 GMT
If you are aware of this and can prove it then they will be removed from the KC ABS scheme, and as you said they are already Licensed their activities and standards come under the LA jurisdiction.

As has been said the KC only have jurisdiction over those using it's services, unlike the LA's they are not a statutory body with any legal powers, the Laws already exist to tackle any breaches of regulations.

The ABS scheme at least gives feedback to the KC from puppy buyers, not many puppy buyers ever see the breeder or premises of their puppy farmed puppy.
Barbara and the Grey Curly Tails.
By Jeangenie (*****) [gb] Date 05.11.10 17:11 GMT
That needs to be reported, with evidence, to both the KC and the licencing council.
A closed mouth gathers no feet
By Brainless (*****) [gb] Date 05.11.10 17:14 GMT

> and the licencing council


Well they're licensed, so the council knows about them, so if conditions break licensing laws they need reporting and LA pushed to Act.

Unfortunately if they are abiding by the law, distasteful as their commercial breeding may be to us, they are doing nothing LEGALLY wrong.
Barbara and the Grey Curly Tails.
By Maisie B [gb] Date 06.11.10 17:53 GMT
It would seem that some councils condone poor animal welfare and have licensed premises that fail the requirements of the Animal Welfare Act for many years. I have yet to find a body responsible for  councils actions , so who can people complain to? it is a dead end , even when shown clear evidence of suffering some councils just say it is not true and ignore it and there is no recourse.
By Jeangenie (*****) [gb] Date 06.11.10 19:15 GMT

>even when shown clear evidence of suffering some councils just say it is not true and ignore it and there is no recourse.


That's when you go to the local press, local radio etc.
A closed mouth gathers no feet
By Jeff (Moderator) [gb] Date 06.11.10 19:21 GMT
Hi Calmstorm,

Both you and Brainless make valid points but the whole sledgehammer to crack a nut is a very valid comment and not uncaring at all. The inabilty of authorities to differentiate between caring breeders and puppy farms is the crux of the matter. We are all agreed puppy farms and poor breeders must be shut down but we have a nasty habit in this country of taking the easy target in so many spheres. Witness the appalling conditions seen in many, many puppy farms (and I have seen many first hand over the years) and yet the authorities still fail to shut them down despite legislation that although not perfect is at least adequate. Whilst many of us continue to campaign and detest these establishments (rightly so) the powers that be are very good at jumping on the latest band wagon. Witness the ability of anybody to open a classified ad any week for most of the last ten years and buy a "pit bull" but only recently has anything been done because it is once again "news". The authorities could make a real difference to puppy farming TODAY but choose not to.
Jeff.
By Maisie B [gb] Date 06.11.10 19:51 GMT
Agreed Jeff - also a look at the 'free adds' reveals a lot that could and should be checked. There may well be many good breeders out there but there are many , many who sell to pet shops and through free adds .The law  is in place to protect dogs but there is no organisation to enforce it, I for one feel as if I am permanently banging my head against a brick wall .
By Jeff (Moderator) [gb] Date 06.11.10 22:01 GMT
Very true although I would disagree on one point- there are various organisations that should enforce the law but do not. The Police are too busy, local authorities have a conflict of interest and the RSPCA are too political. They all say they need more legislation but, in my humble opinion, none of them has done enough with the laws we already have. I know the RSPCA have their critics ,many of their volunteers do an excellent job, but the heirachy have turned a "blind eye" to the pitbull problem, until recently, after being almost evangelical at the outset and, again it's only my opinion, but they behaved disgracefully when the DDA was launched in order to curry favour with the Government. They were not alone in this either.
Jeff.
By Jeff (Moderator) [gb] Date 06.11.10 22:04 GMT Edited 06.11.10 22:08 GMT
Hi Maisie,

If you can show clear evidence of suffering now and nobody enforces the law who will enforce the new law?
Jeff.

Edited to add- I am not against stronger/better laws about this it is just I have no faith in those who are meant to enforce them and the Police have too much to do anyway. Perhaps I am just an old cynic? Scrap the perhaps! :-)
By Maisie B [gb] Date 06.11.10 22:40 GMT
Totally agree -- I have tried and tried to find someone who is ' in charge ' of making sure laws are implemented and cannot . Defra say it is the local authorities, the local authorities say " nothing wrong" ! and that seems to be it.
By Mystyfyed [gb] Date 09.11.10 23:26 GMT
I find this all very interesting, especially the bit about ABS breeders, I visited one recently, they were not expecting me, they are ABS + licensed breeders, it was a puppy farm! the ABS breed was in nice kennels with a run, I saw 5 other breeds filthy, scruffy and in poor body condition, two dogs had visable treatable health problems. SO after reading the comments about ABS on here....... if I report what I saw to the Kennel Club and they find it true ...... they will take away the ABS for the one breed? Definately? anybody actually know that the ABS status has been removed?
Evil prevails as good men stand by and do nothing !
By Brainless (*****) [gb] Date 10.11.10 02:41 GMT
http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/item/2158 ABS requiremetns apply to ALL the dogs

Also re policing: http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/item/421

How does the Kennel Club check the properties of KCABs and how does the Kennel Club envisage this system working in the future, as the scheme grows in size?

Upon joining the scheme every member of the Accredited Breeder Scheme agrees to allow a breeder advisor access to visit their premises. It is clearly important that we prioritise certain visits and our initial focus has been on those who are breeding on a more frequent basis. Occasionally we have complaints about an Accredited Breeder and we ensure that these too are dealt with as a matter of urgency. However, we also arrange randomly selected visits to ensure that good practices as outlined in the scheme are followed. So far around 400 members have been removed or resigned from the scheme for being unable to fully comply with our standards.

A local breeder that has a bad reputation is claiming that they are an Accredited Breeder and appears to not be fulfilling the requirements of the ABS. What can be done about it?

An email may be sent to the ABS Team in the first instance detailing the complaint. Then, depending on the nature of the complaint, a signed letter may be required as well.

Any written complaint that we receive about an Accredited Breeder, who is breaching the rules of the scheme, or someone claiming to be an Accredited Breeder who is suspected not to be, is thoroughly investigated and appropriate action is taken. An up to date list of members is available on our website here.

.
Barbara and the Grey Curly Tails.
By pat (**) [gb] Date 10.11.10 08:45 GMT
When a breeder applies to the KC to become a member of the AB Scheme it would be very easy to ask on the form if the breeder is licensed by their local Council as a dog breeder and ask for confirmation (maybe they do already).  Then when a complaint arises as refered to in this case one would asume a telephone call to the Council by the KC even under FOI if need be would enlighten them of the breeds of dogs they have listed on their licence.  If the Council are acting in accordance with the Breeding and Sale of Dogs welfare Act 1999 the breeder should be entering the details (of all the dogs they have bred from and the litters produced) either electronically or on hard copy.  The information the KC requires re only one breed entered for the ABS scheme but known to own and suspected of breeding from other breeds but not declaring this in their original application could be obtained.

The breeder would of course not be so naive as to be registering with the KC breeds other than they one they are listed on the ABS scheme for, so to avoid being detected they are likely to use alternative registration companies or be selling the puppies with only a pedigree, possibly through the dealer network.  Ads placed in free ads and web sites with a mobile number anything to avoid detection.  Knowing full well that it makes it difficult for tracability.

However if the new Welsh legislation comes in to being then that situation will not be an issue because they should have all dogs they own and litters of puppies before sale microchipped, therefore as I keep saying the desperately need for tracability. 

The KC does accept volume breeders on their sceme but accordingly to what they have advised me the ones they do have are excemplary.  I beg to differ it is not so in all cases.
By Brainless (*****) [gb] Date 10.11.10 11:00 GMT

> However if the new Welsh legislation comes in to being then that situation will not be an issue because they should have all dogs they own and litters of puppies before sale microchipped, therefore as I keep saying the desperately need for tracability. 
>
>


I don't understand your issue with this particular case, as the Local authority seem aware of their activities, they are Licensed, so if they are infringing Licenses the power exists for the council to enforce, and no new legislation is needed, or will change anything.

As for the KC it is just a voluntary organisation for the registration of purebred dogs,  to maintain breeds, organise shows and other canine activities.

No-one has to register with the KC, or use any of their services, if they are infringing any KC rules and systems then the KC need to be informed, and they will deal with under their rules, kick them off ABS, stop their registration privileges if appropriate etc, but they are not a regulatory authority, and sadly Licensed breeding if the rules are followed, is a perfectly legal business activity.
Barbara and the Grey Curly Tails.
By Brainless (*****) [gb] Date 10.11.10 11:03 GMT Edited 10.11.10 11:08 GMT

> The KC does accept volume breeders on their sceme but accordingly to what they have advised me the ones they do have are excemplary.  I beg to differ it is not so in all cases.


That is the way of the world, and if evidence exists it needs to be forwarded so that action can be taken.

that is no different to any other area of life.  Standards in Restaurants, Cowboy builders etc

Your campaign wants to have 10 puppies or two litters in a year, or those owning 3 entire bitches 6 months or over classed as  'volume breeders' and this is where most of us take issue.

Go after the cases you have highlighted here with everyone's blessing.  Surely adding the rest of us in will mean it will be even harder to find the bad guys, not seeing the Wood for the trees.
Barbara and the Grey Curly Tails.
By Mystyfyed [gb] Date 10.11.10 17:02 GMT
quote :I don't understand your issue with this particular case, as the Local authority seem aware of their activities, they are Licensed, so if they are infringing Licenses the power exists for the council to enforce, and no new legislation is needed, or will change anything.

My issues are this person is ABS registered and in the eyes of the public is credible...... because KC have given them this acolade..
But is in fact a puppy farmer of various other breeds.
Several people have mentioned on here that the KC would take that ABS status away if they knew....... I am asking is that a fact, do they know it has been done.

As for the WA proposals they are not "our's" they are the WA's after consultation with the other dog welfare organisations and this is what they come up with......... it does not mean we agree with every single part of the legislation.
I will repeat again, if people are breeding responsibly then they they have nothing to fear from their LA, they cannot bring prosecution without just cause, or is it just the money that is being worried about?
Evil prevails as good men stand by and do nothing !
By Brainless (*****) [gb] Date 10.11.10 18:08 GMT

> Several people have mentioned on here that the KC would take that ABS status away if they knew....... I am asking is that a fact, do they know it has been done.
>
>


The links and quotes I posted confirm that is the case, and they say they have removed ABS status.

It is why i gave the link for the list of ABS breeders, so you could check it.
Barbara and the Grey Curly Tails.
By Jeangenie (*****) [gb] Date 10.11.10 18:32 GMT
Of course if they've been removed from the ABS and are still advertising under it, that's a problem for Trading Standards, not the KC.
A closed mouth gathers no feet
By Brainless (*****) [gb] Date 11.11.10 10:45 GMT
Maybe I worded it badly.  Have no idea if this breeder Pat refers to has been reported, and or removed, but that is the KC procedure according to the KC, and she can check if they are currently listed..
Barbara and the Grey Curly Tails.
By pat (**) [gb] Date 11.11.10 13:30 GMT
KC are aware but proceedures have to followed, which it appears the complainant has to follow before the KC can look at the complaint.
By Jeangenie (*****) [gb] Date 11.11.10 14:14 GMT
Obviously, otherwise the opportunity for spite and malice would be too much for some people. As is only correct, you're innocent until proven guilty.
A closed mouth gathers no feet
By pat (**) [gb] Date 25.11.10 09:30 GMT
Here is a link to the Welsh Assembly Government with the latest news.  After reading the page you need to click on the right hand side under 'Related' and go to Companion Animal Welfare Enhancement Scheme which then gives the data relating to the article.

http://wales.gov.uk/newsroom/environmentandcountryside/2010/101123cawes/?lang=en
By Brainless (*****) [gb] Date 25.11.10 10:59 GMT
Can't read Welsh, and can't find it in English?
Barbara and the Grey Curly Tails.
By Olive1 (**) [gb] Date 25.11.10 11:04 GMT
scroll down :-)
By Brainless (*****) [gb] Date 25.11.10 11:13 GMT
still WElsh
Barbara and the Grey Curly Tails.
By pat (**) [gb] Date 25.11.10 11:21 GMT
Brainless only the first page of the PDF file is in Welsh the rest is in English.
By Brainless (*****) [gb] Date 25.11.10 11:59 GMT
Oh, well didn't go past the first page because it was Welsh, LOL
Barbara and the Grey Curly Tails.
By mountaindreams (*) [gb] Date 25.11.10 13:08 GMT
oh I gave up to cos it was in Welsh lol
By Learchus [gb] Date 20.12.10 12:53 GMT
There is a Facebook group which is concerned about the over-reaching laws being proposed. A meeting is being arranged in Wales to try to change the composition of the proposed legislation. I saw my AM (Assembly Member for hose out of Wales) who is also First Minister for Wales. ANd he has asked that as many people as possible send in the responses to this bilL AS her said if they get no feed back from the consultatvie period then they will go forward with the legislation as proposed.

The face book site is THE ANIMAL WELFARE (BREEDIND OF DOGS) ( WALES) REG 2010

Please go there read some of the comments. My letter and Graham Hill's letter to Carwyn Jones (First Minister) are there for you to read and peruse
By Brainless (*****) Date 20.12.10 15:09 GMT
How do I find it on Facebook, do you have a link?
Barbara and the Grey Curly Tails.
By Daffodil [gb] Date 20.12.10 20:14 GMT Edited 20.12.10 20:24 GMT
If you're a member on Facebook type in your search bar THE ANIMAL WELFARE (BREEDIND OF DOGS) ( WALES) REG 2011, it's an open group. Everyone welcome. :-)
If you don't want to be a member of facebook I don't suppose anyone will object to a cross-posting, so the last about a meeting came from Mr Graham Hill:
Graham Hill Hi All,
In an effort to make progress and hopefully put a few minds at rest, I have
just had a discussion with Bill Lambert who with Victoria Brown at the KC
have been working away on The Animal Welfare issues. They have agreed to
come down to... South Wales and address a meeting to clarify and up date explaining what has been done and what further can be done by everyone to canvass AMs etc. From my discussions the meeting is likely to be early January possibly in conjunction with the WKC Open show at Bridgend on the 9th Jan (the 2nd Jan is a bit to soon after New Year!!) or one evening.
I will post the date when finalised,
Regards,
Graham Hill
By reddragon [gb] Date 22.12.10 16:00 GMT
according to facebook there is a meeting with the kc and licensed commercial breeders at the trinity college carmarthern on the 6th of january
By Daffodil [gb] Date 22.12.10 21:40 GMT
That is correct...however, only invited people can attend that one, but a meeting is being planned for others in Cardiff hopefully, Mr Hill came back with this:
A meeting ...with the KC and us can be held following the meeting but on the Friday as the Carmarthen meeting is at 7pm. Then everyone can be updated.
I hope the meeting will be held at the St David's Hotel Cardiff but this
and time to be confirmed.


For those not on Facebook but would like to attend this Cardiff meeting I will be happy to let you know more when more transpires.
By pat (**) [gb] Date 23.12.10 09:15 GMT
Just wonder why the KC decided they would agree to a private meeting with the commercial licenced breeders and what they think will be gained from being confronted by the very individuals that are the very reason for the introduction of the new Welsh legislation. 

The KC were certainly not aware at the time of arrranging the meeting who the 'licensed commercial breeders' are as a group and who are their members (they have since been advised).   The Licensed Commercial Breeders group consist of dog breeders (puppy farmers) who breed excessive litters of puppies to sell to dealers and pet shops, mostly a clandestine operation with private meetings to exchange litters of puppies for cash (some sell privately too and their ads can be found on line and in free ads) some use all three methods of selling their puppies.  But if the KC is trying sell the ABS to them they have no chance, so I do wonder what can possibly be gained from such a meeting.  I understand Pet Log will be attending too.

The group used to be called WALK Welsh Association of Licensed Kennels they have reformed themselves from when they were first active prior to the introduction of the Breeding and Sale ofDogs (Welfare Act) 1999.

The KC maybe taking on quite a challenge because the commercial breeders are not happy with the legislation it will cost them money and most have no desire to spend anymore money on their dogs than the bare necessities and some even less than that.  
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