http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/item/3426/23/5/3

Excellent! 4 litters is more than enough for any bitch. Well done, KC!

About time, I always thought 4 litters was plenty.

About time too, 4 litters is more than enough for any bitch.

could'nt agree more

thats great!!!! same here!

Excellent news , about bloody time , personally would have preferred 3 as the limit but this is great news none the less

Fantastic news

great news but I did think three was the limit anyway mind you the cynic  in me thinks that it will just mean more unregistered puppies

I agree with mistral.

One of the worlds biggest breeders have about 5/6 litters from their broods and perhaps only one of these will be purebred and perhaps not taken from the bitch till its about 5yrs, but the first x liters is when the bitch is much much younger.

Great - I think 3 would be enough too personally, that would be my own limit, and only 2 preferably.

That falls in lien with our bred club maximum.  Plenty enough time to find a good combination and get some decent stock in four litters, even should litters be small.

My breed COE is for three litters, I personally only ever have two litters from a bitch. I would have preferred three as a maximum, but do realise that sometimes things go wrong and a litter might be lost or only one survive, so perhaps then people might want to have a final try.

There already are way too many people breeding and not KC registering or registering with one of the other registers, between litters which they know will show up in the BRS and so they would be seen by all the breed club members to be less responsible than the majority are.

There already are way too many people breeding and not KC registering or registering with one of the other registers, between litters which they know will show up in the BRS and so they would be seen by all the breed club members to be less responsible than the majority are.

......POLLY i didnt think people still did this with kc dogs!! thought it was just the pedigree with no papers kind of breeding!

This is a limit not an amount to breed, so if you only want to breed one or two litters and this achieves your aims/needs well and good.

Much will depend on the breed, size of litters, and size of gene pool.

So they should. I know of so many breeders who breed from a bitch six times, where you never see any or hardly any of their pups inthe show ring or doing anything else of use to the breed.

I suppose if a no. of pups are champions or fantastic in the working side you wouldn't mind so much but when you know it's out and out money making it stinks.

> ......POLLY i didnt think people still did this with kc dogs!! thought it was just the pedigree with no papers kind of breeding!

I know of a few who between litters which they KC register, they have another litter which they register with one of the other two registers or they sell them with no papers. This is the problem with the KC being a private club they cannot hold a monopoly as it restricts trade, which dog breeding is considered to be. If you join the anti puppy farming groups and take up all seven editions of the BRS you can begin to spot these people.

The only sure way ahead is to make all KC dogs DNA tested before registration, that way parentage can be tracked, and checked on. I DNA profile all my dogs with the KC. Micro-chips can go wrong and tattoos can fade or become unreadable, DNA never changes. The KC would not need to check every litter bred spot checks would catch out the unscrupulous and if anyone had any suspicions about the parentage of their puppy they could check it easily enough. The only reason a quick reliable DNA test has not been developed is that it does not get enough support. Also by registering the DNA health issues could perhaps be identified more quickly and followed through lines, which might be more helpful to breeders.

Unfortunately those irresponsible people will continue to do outrageous things in order to get round this - for instance have 'ghost' dogs, perhaps extra puppies registered so that litters can be registered to those dogs whilst born to poor dogs having two litters per year.  Responsible breeders have never over bred their bitches - it's tough when breeds have few in a litter, so my sheltie had 2 litters (3 pups in total).  My GSD has had 2 litters and 16 pups!  So there's a big difference.  By the way none of these are seen in the show ring, although the sheps can be seen doing obedience and agility, the shelties all went to 'pet' homes where they are adored and spoiled.  In fact the one I should have kept was the boy from the first litter, but at the time it wasn't 'right' and now I don't have the option, the bitch of that litter had an eye problem, the girl in the second litter was too small to show (not that I show).  Not all responsible breeders show - nor should they, there are other activities for dogs.

I totally agree with DNA testing every puppy that is born, like it was said you cannot fake DNA.
Puppy farm bitches will still have 6 plus litters they will just use different paperwork, so the KC will be non the wiser.
So in the long run puppy farm breeders will not be affected.
Us good breeders all stick to the rules anyway and would never ( if givin a choice ) would have more then 3 litters from any one bitch, but the puppy farmers will swap paperwork which they do already, so what really has changed?
Unless DNA is done on every puppy born , this will never be policed.

Peanuts

> Great - I think 3 would be enough too personally, that would be my own limit, and only 2 preferably.

Only 2 litters in my breed would make it an even longer haul to improve the breed!

One of my girls had 2 pups, both boys, in her first litter.  I kept the one with the best type for the show ring.  He is supposed to be 4-6lbs as an adult.  However, he has grown as big as a camel!  I obviously still have him, I couldn't get rid, he is a poppet.  But I can't use him for breeding. 

2nd litter was one puppy, born dead.  3rd litter, 2 boys, and I really can't keep another boy, I was so hoping for a girl to show.  The best of the two boys went to a show home, and the other wasn't good enough for show, and went to a pet home.  So, I'm just saying that it is very difficult with breeds that have very small litters. 

Its about time i think!!!

I only ever have 2 litters from a girl then spay her!! Not that i breed that often anyway!

That's true Jean. But though I have a popular breed, my own bitch only had 2 puppies in her first litter and 1 in her second. But I still think that's enough to put her through, and will not breed from her again. If the singleton from the second litter had been a boy, or had been a bitch with a terrible fault of some type, instead of the reasonably nice bitch I got, I might have considered a 3rd litter from her mum, but as it is, I will keep my fingers crossed for the next 2 and a bit years!

> If the singleton from the second litter had been a boy, or had been a bitch with a terrible fault of some type, instead of the reasonably nice bitch I got, I might have considered a 3rd litter from her mum,

That's the point, it allows for some leeway to fit in most breeding plans.  No one has to have even one litter.

My own case her.  I went abroad to get fresh bloodlines, was lucky enough to get a litter, but the best quality pups were male, and all ended up in pet homes.  I had promised a show worthy bitch to a new exhibitor as a foundation,a dn the only remaining bitch was nothing outstanding, but I already had better in her Dam and Grandam for showing.

I bred a second litter from her Mum, which was a close linebreeding and got my very successful young show bitch, the two only being 19 months apart.

I want to keep a pup from each, but need to space my dogs out.  Bred a litter from the older bitch to prove her two years ago, didn't keep one as the sister was only 6 months old,b ut this has given a chance to see how the bloodlines have blended.  She again produced better males than bitches.  Two years on I have used the sire of her half sister on her to see whether the quality in the bitches I had in that litter will be repeated (some dogs seem to produce better bitches and some better dogs).

Given the results of the two litters will hopefully give me a better chance of choosing a pairing that will count and produce the bitch I want from her in another 2 1/2 to 3 years, and plenty of time to observe her offspring's traits and how they mature being as one side of her pedigree is pretty new to me.

Breeding isn't simply about numbers of puppies, but should be about a plan for the direction of your lines and where they will fit into the breed.

That's interesting about some dogs producing better puppies of one sex Barbara, as I think although Hetty is quite nice, she isn't nearly as nice as the 2 boys from the first litter (repeat mating). Still, 3 puppies isn't much of a statistically significant sample!

I think your more likely to get good bitches from males who had good mothers and grandmothers than studs whose most successful ancestors were the males.

This weeks Our Dogs has an item on revised ABS requirements and among other things it says
Rhodesian Ridgeback - no more than 3 litters
Rottweiler - no more than 5 litters
?????

Should imagine that is at the individual breed clubs request.

I read that too....I don't understand why they are changing the numbers now for some breeds, it also said 5 litters allowed for Tibetan Spaniels???

Is the age limit still 8 years old?

Yes.

Polly, what are the costs involved in DNA profile. How responsible of you to do this,it was a joy to read.

Perhaps it should be made a requirement that all litters are checked and accounted for by a vet who would sign a certificate to say this litter has x number of puppies and the DNA submitted is from each puppy in the litter present.

The last one I had done was if I remember rightly about £20

This will be the breed clubs request. My breed has added extra health tests which we have not had before.

Hmm, well my girls only have two litters maximum anyway, as a rule. However, sadly in my breed, non KC reg pups are very commonly sold for around £550, I have recently seen such litters advertised for £650, so I am afraid where cavaliers are concerned it will just mean yet more non KC reg puppies, including cav crosses of course .... where will it all end.  
There are top show people (according to the BRS) that do take as many as 6 litters from their bitches, which shocks me, but at least that won't happen any longer - presumably such breeders wouldn't breed non KC reg litters ?

i agree 2 is enough i bred my girl 2yrs old & again at 5 yrs ol & she about to be spayed now so 2-3 is well enough litters for any animal

You can't say that 2 or 3 litters is enough for ANY animal -a lot will depend on litter size and type of animal. There is also a gigantic difference between 3 litters of one or two pups and 3 litters of ten!

> You can't say that 2 or 3 litters is enough for ANY animal -a lot will depend on litter size and type of animal. There is also a gigantic difference between 3 litters of one or two pups and 3 litters of ten!

Absolutely.  I can see the ethical arguement for not overbreeding but we must be producing rather weedy animals if they cannot easily cope with 4 litters.

I'd be more worried about the extra amount of dogs ending up in rescue or rehomed.

Puppy farms will send even more and the rescues happily take them to make money, so puppy farm continues.

> Puppy farms will send even more and the rescues happily take them to make money, so puppy farm continues.

These are not likely to be under the KC control though.  Only legislation and local councils are able to restrict the amount of puppies produced from these sources.

Shame the biggest dog breeder in the world wont stick to this rule, they get away with it by crossing & therefore no  need to register.

> Shame the biggest dog breeder in the world wont stick to this rule, they get away with it by crossing & therefore no  need to register

I am assuming I know who you mean and I do not understand your antipathy.  They clearly have an interest in producing long serving, healthy animals so I doubt they would achieve this from exhausted dams.  From what I have seen their husbandry and understanding of reproductive health is second to none.  Nor can they be accused of flooding the market with unwanted animals as they have a specific purpose for them all.  I really think they do not need the same restraints as puppy farmers as their own needs will dictate self regulation.
The cross breeding, of course, has nothing to do with "getting away" with things.  This breeding best suits their purposes.

The maximum is exactly that, no one has to breed that many (or neccesarily should), or even breed at all.

In my breed 4 litters maximum has been what our breed club code of ethics allowed for around 20 years.

sorry missing something here ...who is this biggest dog breeder in the world???? someone help here having a blonde moment

I'd imagine in the UK Guide Dogs for the Bind, though I suspect that is registered dogs as I am pretty sure that many puppy farmers produce more puppies.

> I am pretty sure that many puppy farmers produce more puppies.

Quite probably, and few of them will have a code of ethics

I totally agree with the KC, I bet the farmers just dont register them to get around it?

I totally agree with the KC, I bet the farmers just dont register them to get around it?

Sadly the puppy farmers have always got around the registration process when the limit was higher, so dropping it will not affect these

Ooops, just read some more posts. I've no idea whether the Guide Dogs actually register their litters with the KC. Assuming they do, is the Guide Dogs for the Blind excluded from the changes made by the KC relating to the number of litters registered?

They register their pedigree litters.

> Assuming they do, is the Guide Dogs for the Blind excluded from the changes made by the KC relating to the number of litters registered?

Unless I'm missing something I can't see why they would be - they wouldn't need to breed more than 4 litters per bitch.  They do care about the health and welfare of their dogs.  I'd be surprised if they even take 4 litters from a bitch before homing her on.

But then I'm making assumptions...  I could be totally wrong on the number of litters they produce per bitch.