Hi Guys,

My Mum & I are looking for a breeder of Tibetan terriers who have any litters planned for the end of the year. I realise this advert is probably a bit premature seeing as we're only one week into the year, but I know these dogs are sometimes hard to find and I would like to find a breeder a little bit in advanced.

We are not bothered about KC reg puppies as we do not want to breed or show our dogs. We are experienced with dogs, Mum has had them all her life and I have had them since I was 5 (I'm nearly 19.) In our house there is Myself, my Mum & my Dad. My Dad is not a 'dog person' in the fact he's never had his own dog, however always takes an interest in the dogs we've had and has been quite attached.

As well as my Mum & Dad, my Sister and her daughter often visit. Her daughter is 2 in February and is absolutely dog mad. She is respectful of dogs having been around friend's dogs and puppies and she knows she has to be gentle but we are totally aware that she is only two and as such could not ever be trusted to be with the dog unsupervised for both her's and the dog's safety. Our most recent dog was a terrier cross that we unfortunately re-homed as he had a history of aggression and although we had made our best efforts to correct this, my Sister felt he could not be trusted around my niece (who was new born and lived at our house at the time.) Previous to him we had a yorkie buddy who unfortunately had to be PTS because of ongoing health problems which led to kidney failure.

Work-wise, I am in university (although I live at home as the University is close) and my Dad works full time. My Mum works from 9-3 however the dog will not be left on it's own for extended periods of time as my Dad comes home from work for his lunch hour and I only have half-days in university. In a typical day the dog would be on it's own from 1-3.

If any breeders are planning litters and live in the North West, please let me know so I can discuss it more with my parents. We totally understand that it is really worrying letting pups go (I breed animals myself but not dogs. The other animals are kept in a fenced off part of the garden so no trouble with the dogs.)

Josh

have pm'd you.

> We are not bothered about KC reg puppies as we do not want to breed or show our dogs.

This is the completely wrong attitude.

Anyone breeding without the benefit of KC registration is not breeding for a good reason or responsibly.

If the litter cannot be registered there is a good reason for this (it only costs £12 per puppy).

It possibly means that either the bitch has had too many litters (or too often), is too old, not had restrictions lifted by her breeder (usually put on by good breeders to ensure health testing etc is done before breeding) or the litter are not evenpurebred.

if your willing to take such pot luck then going to you local rescue or breed rescue is a better option as you are not giving money to someone whose only motivation for breeding is money.

'Brainless'- I had very little knowledge of the KC system having only ever had a cross breed terrier and the pedigree dogs we've had other than that I've always been too young to take an interest in that side of things. Now I have been educated I am looking for KC registered dogs.

It might be a bit more helpful to be slightly less condescending on new posters who may not fully understand all the technical details of dog ownership. I have been around many forums and I always find that 'newbies' stick around longer and others are more likely to ask questions if the replies that they see are a worded bit more politely and take into account that you cannot see any body language over the internet and things that are not intended to be rude can come across as very dismissive and callous.

I am sure that is not your intention but it does seem that you were 'jumping down my throat' so to speak.

Josh

Josh
I can 100% assure you that 'Brainless' would have no such intention.  She has a wealth of knowledge and experience.  I am positive that the post was to help, and would never have been made with a callous or dismissive attitude.  Honestly. 

Perhaps I was making my point too strongly, but we hear it constantly we ONLY went a pet.

They should all be Pets first and foremost.

Even the most avid show going owner will have the dogs as ONLY  pets for the other 300 plus days.

The breeding bitch will only be such for a small proportion of her life (as will only ahve a couple of litters).

Every owner no matter what they choose to do with their PET deserves to have a puppy bred with the utmost care and knowledge to the highest standards.

Sadly those who breed with money as their only aim, cutting corners with the dogs health and welfare, will try and convince the general public that higher standards are not required for 'ONLY a pet.

I never said 'ONLY' as a pet. I said 'we do not want to breed or show our dogs'. At the time I was under the impression that to breed or show dogs they had to be KC registered but on another thread I was told otherwise and never thought to update this post.

my mother has recently got a TT, shes about 9 months old now. all I can say is she is of fantastic temperament around other pets, small children, including my daughter who is now 15mths. my mother has found the TT to be full of love and affection. she has had to work hard on the training aspect, and the coat needs regular trimming to keep in shape, i know my mother has to groom at least twice a day, more depending on the weather and where they have been for walks ect. my mother has said her dog can be a little reluctant to groom which is still proving difficult, she has subsequently got some tips from the groomer. they don't like to be left for very long in the day, i'd say 3 hours max per day during the weekdays. please choose a kc reg. puppy, it gives a security you can trust, breeders who love the TT breed. if the TT is the right dog for your family, enjoy your search.TT aka 'the singing dog' if you own one you will soon learn why.

>Even the most avid show going owner will have the dogs as ONLY  pets for the other 300 plus days.

I heard them described as 'pets with a social life', which I think sums it up!

>I said 'we do not want to breed or show our dogs'. At the time I was under the impression that to breed or show dogs they had to be KC registered

Yes, to be shown they must be KC registered, but the 'purely pet' puppies come from the same litters as the Champions, and so should be bred and reared with exactly the same care. In fact a Champion is only a pet that gets shown successfully; if the owner wasn't interested in showing it would still be the same dog with the same genes.

> I said 'we do not want to breed or show our dogs'. At the time I was under the impression that to breed or show dogs they had to be KC registered

It's an interesting point though isn't it.  If 'Joe Public', novice owner or new to dogs does not know what it means to have a KC registered dog, buy from reputable breeder, how to avoid puppy farms, and casual/careless pet breeders etc then where are we failing to educate?

Josh, I noticed that you got the correct information about buying a KC registered dog on your other post, and it was clear you understood why that that would be sensible, but where else would you expect to be getting that information?  Prior to that discussion what made you think that KC wasn't necessary?

I don't have the answers, but your initial impression is common enough to indicate that the correct messages still aren't getting through to puppy buyers.  I wonder what could be done differently to help you and others like you to better understand the issues and to make well informed choices?

It isn't about simply showing though.  If your after a recognised by the KC purebred animal that is carefully bred then it has to at least be KC registered, it can't be any of those things if it isn't, no matter how someone might try to argue to the contrary.

After that then you need to be expecting relevant health testing (hip scoring and eye testing as a minimum for most breeds).

Anyone that breeds without KC registration etc is not a breeder worthy of the name and should not be supported by buying from them.

That is not to say of course there aren't badly bred KC registered dogs, but a well bred pedigree dog has to start there at the very least. 

Only responsibly bred puppies should be bought if standards of health and welfare and adherence to typical traits are to be the norm.

Every time someone breeds a litter that does not even try to aim for excellence and is able to sell them to an unsuspecting person will encourage them and others to do likewise.

> I was under the impression that to breed or show dogs they had to be KC registered but on another thread I was told otherwise

Strictly speaking shows as meant by people on this forum (those run under KC rules) a dog has to be KC registered.

Fun shows run for charity/fun often with the village fête and judged by the vicar or someone just starting in their canine interest or knowledgeable in one or two breeds, the dogs do not but there the level and aim of competition is not the same at all.

Serious showing in 'breed' classes judged by knowledgeable people against the standard is what we mean by shown, and here the dogs do have to be KC registered.

Josh, I noticed that you got the correct information about buying a KC registered dog on your other post, and it was clear you understood why that that would be sensible, but where else would you expect to be getting that information?  Prior to that discussion what made you think that KC wasn't necessary?
I'm honestly not sure how they could describe it or advertise it better to be honest. I've always showed a big interest in my dogs but the issue of KC registration has never occured to me. As I said, our pedigree dogs have always been KC registered but we haven't purposely chosen them because of this, it has just been a coincidence somewhat. From what I currently understand though, when your dogs are KC registered, then a record of their litter gets created. Surely if a truly unscrupulous breeder wanted to pull the wool over people's eyes, they'd simply register their dog for one or two litters but then continue to breed from their registered dog without registering litters?

I just personally still don't understand fully how KC registering stops any fowl play?

>I just personally still don't understand fully how KC registering stops any fowl play?

I can put it in these terms, Josh... I used to breed & show pedigree cats. During that time I took an interest in tracing pedigrees back to the original imports of my (very old) breed. At that time, nobody else had done it.

Together with another breeder, we wrote to many people in the UK and overseas and got pedigrees sent back to us, often with letters about the individual cats and photos too. It was before the internet, and the pleasure we got from making contact and finding out stuff about the ancestors of our cats was wonderful as well as educational and sometimes helpful from a genetics viewpoint. This was only possible because all the cats were registered, going back to the 1800's....  My work back then has now become part of a global database, and yes, health issues are able to be traced if needed. I even travelled halfway around the world, twice, to gather new information about the breed's genesis.

My dog's a crossbreed.... a first- cross between two breeds, but his father I knew was KC reg. I had very few some details, but I asked someone knowledgeable in his father's breed and within a few days I was given a name and links to that side of his family. I know now that his father tested clear of hip and eye issues and epilepsy, and so did his ancestors. I have even found photos online of that side of the family, and I can go back many generations... because of an internet database just like that I helped create with the cats!

Don't know anything at all about his mother's side as she was farm bred and that's where the story stops. If he has bad eyes and/or hips then I know where they DIDN'T come from. Registration is so much more than a silly bit of paper, it is access to hundreds of years of data and ancestry, and history.

the way kennel club registration works is a bit like register or births and Marriages or in some ways the DVLA regarding vehicles.

If a breeders dogs are KC registered and have no breeding restrictions the bitch is not to young or old or had too many litters registered already then each puppy can be registered using a form confirming the sire mated the bitch, and then each of the pups is named and registered.

The breeder then hands on the registration certificate with the puppy when sold.

On this certificate will be the results of any official UK health schemes for the parents,a dn where applicable for the pups.

It is likely that the breeder will include one or both of two endorsements or restrictions.

One does not allow progeny to be registered (this can be removed if appropriate, usually once health tests are done the dog/bitch is of breeding quality etc, conditions will be laid down in the sales contract).  The other prevents the issue of an export pedigree to stop the dog being exported overseas and registered there.

So if you were lucky enough to get previous dogs from good breeders of course they were registered with the KC.

As I said registration alone does not a good/responsible breeder make, but lack of KC registration (in recognised breeds of course) certainly does put them in the other category.

Josh, when you buy, or adopt, a mongrel you are taking pot luck on what your puppy may turn into.  When you buy a pedigree dog you have some expectation of what you are getting.

Puppy farmers, and others, who simply put male to female without thought for health, temperament or conformation can alter the breed you thought you were getting.  This seems especially true of some of the most popular puppy farmed breeds.

Good and ethical breeders will study the pedigree of their dogs to ensure the best match on paper, they will likely know the stud dog from shows, competitions or field trials, they may know previous relatives and will know a number of the breeders involved in producing the generations behind these dogs.   This type of breeder will only ever use KC registered dogs and they will register all of their puppies from every litter.  Armed with the name of the sire and dam you will be able to look at records which show the results of all their health tests and this type of breeder will be proud to discuss the pedigrees with you.  Many of the regular show breeders will have albums of photographs they could show you and plenty of relatives for you to meet, at their home or with other owners.

Where there is cash there will always be fowl play but there are steps you can take to ensure you aren't taken in by puppy farmers.  You wouldn't buy a car from a 'chop shop' with no paperwork, the chances of it going badly wrong are huge.  The same is true of badly bred dogs.  Adverts listing unregistered dogs 'from KC registered parents', or 'unregistered puppies cost £x and registered puppies cost an additional £xx' are a very big warning sign that corners have been cut. 

>Surely if a truly unscrupulous breeder wanted to pull the wool over people's eyes

The more informed you are the less likely you are to get caught out by an unscrupulous breeder.  This is why education is key to tackling the problem

>I just personally still don't understand fully how KC registering stops any fowl play?

The KC website is a good place to start your research.  There is information here about the types of dog registration that the KC offer.  Also have a look here for information on the Kennel Club Accredited Breeder Scheme - Buyers FAQ

Finding a good breeder is so important, and any research you can do will dramatically improve your chances of getting the best puppy for your family.

good explanations people. The world of dogs is quite complecated I suppose like any other hobby for want of abetter word when you get invloved there is more to it. In this case we are dealing with living sentient beings so more care must be taken.
Getting my first dog some 30 years ago I barely knew what the kc was let alone thought it mattered to me .
She came from a friend who bred one litter and fortunately had done her homework and as it turns out Mum and Dad were both health tested and kc registered not that I asked !!
Number two I knew little more but what pedigree breed I wanted an that health tests were necessary. I pointed in the right direction by the litter secretary ( I had by that time gained enough knowledge to research the breed different to my  first breed !  ) having found the breed club. Dog three a little more knowledge gained and research but number four my crossbreed I for some reason ignored everthing except what we were looking for in a vague way hence the x not pure and fell inlove with a dog "accidently"  born from a family who had mum and dad. Number five hopefully next year as some will know, I have learned so much from here and so much more to learn and am still researching following shows badgering people etc.
I stupidly  at the beginning thought that "oh the KC thats for breeders and serious competitive dog" people not ordinary pet people like me LOL
I think what I am trying to say in support of Josh I could easily have been accused of such. Hope not now
.
Josh its hard to know what you should know and being naive not uncaring or stupid can easliy make the best home and person sound in the first instance that maybe they dont care about certain things when its lack of knowledge. Josh stick with Champdogs you will get your wrists slapped occasionally in a nice way but will learn buckets there are loads of good experienced people here.     

I've often told the story here and on other forums about how I just asked my office in general how you buy a puppy, not ever having bought anything bigger than a hamster. Luckily for me someone immediately said 'get a puppy pack from the KC with a list of reputable breeders', so I got a wellbred dog (and as it happens got hooked on showing, but that's neither here nor there). If someone had said 'my next door neighbour has a litter of xxx' I could easily have gone and got one of those and found they were not bred with any health testing or socialising and ended up with something very unhealthy.

With me I am an avid reader, so any subject that interests me and I have to go right into it.

As a result I got into showing Rabbits, as I had an Agouti crossbreed from a friend who bred for the table, and of course there everyone that shows has to be a member of the governing body in order to buy the rings that are used to identify the rabbits.

So I belonged to the Governing body, then joined my National and Regional breed clubs as well as being  member of my local societies whose shows I attended most often.

So when wanting to move to dogs it was a simple no brainer to me, contact kennel club for the Breed Club details of the breed that interested me and go from there.