Do you think that the use of electric collars should be discussed on this forum?

Please answer either yes or no

NO

NO

No

Discuss yes. Promote no.

discuss yes but promoting them no way. if you can't discuss them then how can you discourage people who come on here for advice! but promoting them nope

NO.

One of the best forums I have ever found for worthwhile, practical and edcuational advice has a fixed policy that ONLY non-aversive methods may be discussed. I've been on it for over 5 years and it's my Gold standard, where I read only the best advice, knowing I will only see genuine and positive answers.

Discuss yes. Promote no.

Discuss YES - my issue is not with the product being mentioned or discussed

Promote NO - my objection is to the behaviour of this single poster and his attempts to shoehorn the product into every discussion and to bombard the forum with numerous product references and videos

no

No

for reasons already given.

Yes, or how else will the general public realise that they are cruel, and that there are beter ways to train your dogs.

No, an official Champdogs statement should be used as to why most members of this board consider their use to be unacceptable.

Discuss yes, promote NO.

I would love to say no... however.. I have to say yes.. it should be discussed... As all subjects should, if we are so inclined to join the discussion...

We discuss Pitbulls, murder, DDA, etc.. within context.  Pr. collars should be no different.

What I am sad about is that Admin, rightly or wrongly is allowing the PROMOTION by just 2/3 individuals, in the form of advertising their business and pushing the use of an illegal (in Wales) product.  Not only breaking the law themselves, but inciting innocent others to do the same.

TOS states we cannot advertise, we are not allowed to name our breed (even those of us who happily pay a fee for advertising on the Main Site)  we accept this and adhere to the TOS....

TOS states clearly NO URLS.. yet allows these persons to blantantly promote with videos, and clearly distressing videos at that!

This is a DOG forum, and the welfare of dogs should take precedence..

We cannot advertise a litter if the bitch is under 2 years old (quite right)  BUT, we can show videos of people charging electric currents through them at will

sorry this is way beyond the answer to your question, Helen, but this whole thing is becoming silly... 

The rules have to be the same for everyone... regardless of product or business.. legal or otherwise.. No advertising, or everyone advertises

Discuss yes - promote  - no.

Kay has summed up my views exactly

Discuss yes promote no

> Discuss YES - my issue is not with the product being mentioned or discussed

> Promote NO - my objection is to the behaviour of this single poster and his attempts to shoehorn the product into every discussion and to bombard the forum >with numerous product references and videos

I agree

NO.

Discuss Yes, promote No

discuss yes, promote no.  

Agree with one of the other posters who suggested a statement on the board about what CD stands for and the ethos of the board.

Promote definately not,

If we continue to allow their discussion, how about all topics concerning them, particularly when they are being promoted for some problem, are put in a special place ( not the bin but its tempting) and admin make some sort of continally bumped post, so its always at the top stating that this forum/admin and the majority of its members do not agree with their use and the posts below are there for the sake of free speech only and we do no advocate their use and urge whoever is reading to try more humane methods. Someone could write it much better than me but along those lines.

If its always at the top, newbies will read the post before they read the rest. It will make our thoughts clear and hopefully make those reading think twice.

I think you have to be open to discussion that goes somewhere or that is based on credible new evidence or simply to help others form a view. What is not acceptable is being bombarded by a very few people who view e-c as the solution to just about every behaviour problem and pursue a hard sell agenda. And who, to further that agenda, twist and play with operant conditioning terminology in a way that is misleading

Discuss

Some may promote and others may not. That's what debate is about. People must decide for themselves and we need to credit people with making the right choices.

Actually - something struck me

One of the most heated debates I have had on here was about fox hunting. I am extremely anti-hunting but, there were some, who are pro-hunting and think the Hunting Act should be repealed.

Why should this be allowed and not the use of electric collars?

I expect people to have differing opinions and, perhaps, that discussion helped some people who were unsure make decisions.

Actually, some of the people who are angry about the use of electric collars being discussed were some of the posters who had some of the strongest hunting views. Views which I find abhorrent and uneducated but views that people have the basic right to express Would you have been happy to have your right to an opinion suppressed?

CC,

I think that's a good and fair point- but the nearest analogy I can think of is if someone in favour of fox hunting kept coming on the forum at every opportunity to push fox hunting as a pastime and link to videos of themselves fox hunting and encourage members to sign up to their local hunt. In my view, that is different from a discussion about the merits or demerits of the pursuit.

I don't want to suppress discussion I do want to discourage a hard sell agenda. However, the latter may be very difficult to achieve.

Yes.
(in order to re-educate and de-bunk the myth that they are an acceptable method of training)

As has been previously stated if subjects become taboo where do 'we' draw the line?

discuss yes promote no

Discuss yes, promote no.

no inhuman

No, why give advertisement to this instrument of torture.

Yes - to educate - there are new dog owners every day and where else would they find the information but on an open forum - or else someone out there promoting themselves as a dog trainer with inappropriate methods  - and I am sorry but even the seemingly good dog trainers will give inappropriate advice - happened to me the other day and thank goodness I have the support from lots of other people now. 
No to any promotion - totally agree with HG -- "As has been previously stated if subjects become taboo where do 'we' draw the line" 

Yes - to educate -

Understand where you are coming from but as none of us have ever used one anything we could say would carry little weight and could be counteracted by just asking - well have you ever used one - the answer is no - so you don't know what you are talking about, and we don't we are just appalled at the idea of inflicting pain.

> Yes - to educate - there are new dog owners every day and where else would they find the information but on an open forum

There are still other forums out there that have not taken the stance on welfare grounds that CD has - and  where discussion of them is allowed, with the usual suspects and proponents posting freely.

At the risk of sounding like a complete muppet,but what are they??

I'm imagining they are some form of shock whenever the dog exhibits unwanted behaviour?? Sounds wrong in every way there is to be wrong if so,but as I don't actually know what they are I will shut up now.

I belong to many horse forums and there are always the certain topics that cause an uproar (hunting would be the main one that springs to mind,I try and avoid them now as being very anti-hunt I tend to get on my soapbox lol),I'm not sure banning the topics themselves is the way to go,but I can see that it would save an awful lot of arguments and bad feeling.

I think the people saying that such topics need to be discussed in order to educate are possibly right (as my lack of knowledge and question above proves!!),but can see how it would be difficult for it not to get heated.

> At the risk of sounding like a complete muppet,but what are they??

Electric shock collars. Which do exactly as you think they do from the sound of it - administer an electric shock to the dog wearing them.

There are 3 types... 
One is connected to a fence, known as "invisible fences" where a wire is either run round a property or embedded underground, and the dog wearing the collar gets a shock every time it attempts to cross that boundary. This is they type used by Philip Pook, the first person to be prosecuted under Welsh law which came in last year banning all types of e-collar in Wales. Have a Google for that, it's high-profile at the moment and is helping to fuel the anti-e-collar debate in general.

The second type delivers an electric shock automatically when the dog barks. These are less common, but you can imagine the margin for error - if the collar-wearing dog is close to another barking dog....

The third and probably most controversial type is the remote control, where a dog wears a collar and the handler has a remote like a TV remote, and zaps the dog whenever it's doing something the handler doesn't want it to.

I'm not going into details but the Pro-lobby claim "it's only a mild tingle" (in which case it surely wouldn't stop a dog running full out after a deer or sheep!!) and the authorities such as RSPCA and Veterinary bodies claim they are barbaric, cruel and should be banned.
As do most of us!

Edit: by the way I have heard that they have/can be used on horses too.

Thank you very much for the explanation MsTemeraire,although upon reading the first part about the 'fences' I have just realised that I actually do exactly the same with my horse as I use electric fencing all the time.I would never put it on him like a collar of course,but he does get a belt if he attempts to go somewhere he shouldn't!!

Totally different than the collar situation with the dogs of course,but just suddenly occured to me when reading first bit of your post,I shall risk being a hypocrite though and still comment!!

Collar sounds pretty horrible and certainly not an acceptable training method,especially the remote control part,open to all sorts of abuse and over use I should think.

Personally I have always found reward a far better training incentive than punishment,whether it be kids,horses or dogs,they all respond better to a treat than an electric shock I should think

Devonlass - I think it is quite different to using electric fences with horses, cattle and sheep - which are, after all much larger animals that need to be contained, and can't be taught boundaries by any other means