Hi all I am new to the forums and am in need of some advice. I have an almost 2 year old staffie bitch. Today we were approached by an old friend of my partners and offered a stud to mate with Ella later in this year during her next season. I have always been in two minds as to weather breeding from her is something I want to put her through as she is like my second child. I am wonderin if anyone can offer advice on the pitfalls and problems that come with breeding as I am not going to let her near a male dog whilst in heat if I am not 100% sure this is right for her

The friend advised he would charge £300 stud fee and would want pick of the litter - Ella is KC registered and is a beautiful White and blue staffie - with what he says is a gaurantee of 6 pups and a strong likely hood of blues does this sound fair?

DON'T DO IT!!!   Look at all the other threads on here about breeding your pet dog ....just don't do it!

> I am wonderin if anyone can offer advice on the pitfalls and problems that come with breeding

For every backyard breeder and puppy farmer that breeds from a bitch, and sails through the pregnancy, you won't get the truth - because they won't suffer the heartbreak that a true dog lover will.  I was recently at my own vets when someone came in with a Staffie bitch - she had been in labour FOR TWO DAYS! 

When they realised that a C-section was mega expensive, they wouldn't even pay the consulation fee, and walked back out with their bitch.  Poor, poor unloved Staffie.

There are more Staffies in rescue, than any other breed.  So the awful truth is - loads are destroyed every week. 

Someone telling you that there is a strong likelyhood of blues is spinning the backyard breeder tale (rare blue Staffie.)  Rubbish - there is no reason for colour to affect price.  And someone making guarantees about the size of a litter is totally ignorant of the facts.  The stud dog has no bearing on how many pups a bitch will carry.  So this is not a knowledgeable person.

None of this is said with malice - Love your girl, and have her spayed, rather than risk losing her on an operating table if things go wrong.

Jean

Just to add - £300 stud fee AND pick of litter????????   Run for the hills.

The very last thing you should be worrying about is stud fee/pick of litter - have you thought about the health tests that your bitch AND the stud dog should have before you even think about breeding?   Have a look here :- http://www.staffords.co.uk/dddt.htm

Do you (and the owner of the stud) realise that if you produce puppies from non health-tested dogs and if one of those puppies has any of the diseases mentioned, that the owner of any such puppy could sue you?   And I don't mean that you just take your dog to the vet, for a once-over health check - these tests will cost you money - and that's just the start of it.

Do you have money enough put by if she were to need a ceasarian - could amount to as much as £3,000 if an emergency at night/bank holiday weekend?    Can you afford to take at least three weeks off work to look after mum and puppies 24/7 (mums will often crush a puppy by over-laying it)   Don't forget the extra food/worming that Mum will need - and then the puppies - for 7-8 weeks - IF you are lucky enough to sell all the puppies at that time.  Puppies will poo and wee all the time - mum will only clean them up until you start weaning them - at which time, she will leave it up to you - and the little dears will poo everywhere, walk through it, walk over their litter mates and you have pongy puppies too.  

Breeding is not for the faint-hearted - already there are far too many badly-bred staffies out there - and the Rescue Centres are filled to overflowing with young staffies that the owners can't find homes for - please don't add to their number.

Your friend just thinks he's on to a good little earner - but don't be swayed by his assertion that "blue staffies are rare" - they aren't.

> with what he says is a gaurantee of 6 pups and a strong likely hood of blues does this sound fair?

There is no guarantee of anything.. she may produce 1 pup, by C/section.. and you could lose your bitch on the operating table...

You have paid £300 stud fee, you have to hand over the pup to this person. and you lose your girl, Plus you still have the vets bill of a possible £700 (average) fee.. Does this sound fair?

I would rather have a heathly happy Ella than worry over her and pups she may carry. Ella is my only concern and I know why he asked us about breeding from her. My partner and I have been in two minds as to whether to have her spayed or not which is why at the moment she hasn't been done. I feel that him asking for £300 and pick of any litter is not on as was mentioned I knew she would need certain tests on her eyes and hips and also KC registering for any pups and the other costs like vaccinations and flea and worm treatment along with food but not of the cost of a c section thanks for giving me a lot more to think about my only concern is my dog I love her and to loose her would be the worst thing. I know that for me the thought if her pups ending up in a shelter would be horrid.

I know that there are no gaurantees over litter size, colour or anything else every litter if pups is different. Thanks for your help

Here's some more food for thought: http://www.staffords.co.uk/kcliaison/press081105.htm

Litter size is dependent on the bitch, not the dog so that's one thing incorrect. Never offer anyone 'pick of the litter' as wouldn't you want the option of a puppy yourself and if so would you be happy seeing the one you wanted go to someone else??  To charge a stud fee AND take a puppy is outrageous!  If you breed you need to check compatibility of the pedigrees of both dogs - to ask people about all the dogs on the pedigree so you know what you're letting yourself in for.  Health test for everything, hip score, etc both bitch and dog.  Temperament - both need to be sound.  Basically you don't want to use just any old dog!  Sounds like he wants a cheap pup and to get some money in for himself whilst you cover all the costs and could be left with nothing... no pup, no bitch no money

Breeding is a tough thing to do, you put your dogs at risk and the birth process doesn't always go to plan.  Pups can die, or be ill and you have to keep them or have them pts depending.  Don't forget most babies are born in the middle of the night when it's expensive emergency call out money!  Does your vet offer 24/7 cover or will you be using a very expensive emergency cover practice?

Find out how much average stud fees are and how much pups sell for (if they sell).  As an example stud fee for a sheltie is £250, even for a show champion, yet pups sell for £700 ish.. so you can see that if I offered you a stud for a sheltie (which I wouldn't but just as an example) then I'd offer the stud as a deposit towards a puppy!

There are so many staffies being bred at the moment even if you bitch is perfect, the dog is perfect, the pups are perfect, could you sell them?  So many in rescue these days it's shocking.

Glad that you've asked and not just done it - so well done!  Ask him about health tests completed, to see the pedigree of his dog, and say that if you went ahead it would be no stud fee and he'd have to pay XX for a puppy, bet he backs off double quick!

Penny

When they realised that a C-section was mega expensive, they wouldn't even pay the consulation fee, and walked back out with their bitch.  Poor, poor unloved Staffy.

Last year I think it was there was a story all over the local papers about a couple who's staffy had been in labour too long but they refused to pay the price of a csection at their local vets and were turned away . They took her to the vet hospital which isn't far from us and she and her pups were destroyed , all because of cost !!! Poor girl lost her life just because of mean , selfish money grabbing , heartless owners , who tried to turn the bad press from them onto the vets for not doing the operation for free as they had no money .

Thank you for coming on the forum, it's a breath of fresh air that you are thinking of Ella first.

This stud dog owner **rolleyes** no-one charges £300 and has pick of the litter, it's either or, not both He's conning someone who knows no better, and as already said he can't tell you how many pups or how they will turn out, you need to study the genetics of the two lines, the temperaments and most importantly the health issues and tests all need to be looked into before you put two dogs together, if you or the stud dog owner do not have a KC pedigree line to trace your dogs ancestors don't bother breeding as you do not know what is in that line, your responsible for bringing life and you want to rear healthy, well balanced pups, giving the puppy owners not only a quality pup but a breeder who understands everything from training, behaviour and the breeding process of a dog and will be there for them to turn to, you also need to be very tough in the vetting process, if you don't have it in you to turn people away and be strict on homes especially in your breed, again don't touch breeding.

So many Staffs are in the wrong hands and in rescues they are overflowing.

Book Of The Bitch is a good book to help you understand what your bitch will go through, it may be worth getting to give you a heads up do not touch breeding unless you are confident in knowing how to, Ella could die or have complications, c-sections cost the price of 2-4 pups, and the pups need someone who can spot a problem in an instant and help them to thrive and wean. It's hard work rearing a quality litter.

Think very seriously, but mostly think of Ella, if you are not fully secure in yourself knowing everything you need to know, then don't risk her, let her live as your much loved pet dog.

This greedy 'stud dog' owner will take your money and your precious puppy and you will have NO SAY in who he sells it to.

I cant imagine how awful I would feel if I saw an awful person with my pup, it could be anyone - drug dealer - dog fighter - anyone!!

Also at this moment in time, it probably doesn't worry our OP too much the thought of giving a pup to the stud dog owner, who she doesn't know, but once those pups are whelped everything changes, when you spend weeks sleeping next to the whelping area watching those pups and keeping them alive, when they start to walk and eat and their little personalities start to shine through, when you spend hours cleaning up after them and playing with them, what you perceive breeding to be changes, those wee pups become your babies, you become protective and maternal towards them and the last thing you'd ever want is to hand one over to someone who may not feel the same.

Breeding is very tiring and very emotional and many don't realise that until it is too late. You often think you understand what it is all about, but your looking at it from the outside until you have the puppies there you can't understand the bond.

All good advice recieved but I just want to add about the other side.  Selling your 'babies'.  Cos that's what it really feels like.  I used to show and breed a breed which all the 'druggies' own now hence one of the reasons that I stopped owning this breed.  I had a gang of boys at my door at midnight once when I had a litter with a fistfull of grubby cash wanting one of my pups!!  They were 4 weeks and it was midnight!!  The amount of idiots you have to sift through to find the decent owners. You won't get many families wanting these types of dogs(don't mean that in a bad way but a lot of people are believing the press) so would you sell to the gang of single guys in your lounge?  Then you have to hand over the little lives that you have loved, cuddled, adored, fed, cleaned, giggled at, screeched at, everything for the last 8 weeks.  What if something goes wrong in the new home?  Do you have space to take the pup back?  What if the pup and Ella don't get on?  Would you separate?  I have had 2 litters in the past 2 years and have had a pup back from both of those through no fault of the dog.  Could you help your pups forever?  If your answer is no, then you have your answer to whether you should breed.
Good luck

For ALL the reasons given above and more, please can I say PLEASE don't breed your girl

A fellow Stafford owner.

Hi StaffieElla.

As the others have said there is a huge rescue and over breeding (mostly by the wrong people) of the Stafford, hence why some replies may come across a bit harsh.

Lets get down to basics.  The breeding of any bitch/breed should be about more than reproduction, the breed is certainly in no danger of dying out.

Breeding should be about adding/maintaining something useful to the breed in terms of positive traits and breadth of genes, so that the bred is healthy and typical for future generations to enjoy.

To breed well takes a fair bit of knowledge of dogs, and the breed in depth.  Then there is the study of the pairs ancestry, you need to know more than just the names on the pedigrees.

You want to know their health, temperament, what good and bad traits they passed on to which bloodlines.

All this cannot happen over night and a person starting out on breeding should have a variety of people that do have this knowledge (to get a balanced view) to fill in the gaps of knowledge the novice breeder has, these are called mentors.

As the original function of the breed was dog fighting.  The breed was then taken on purely as a show dog and companion when this was banned.  Breeders have been working to tone down the negative traits (unacceptable levels of aggression to other dogs/animals) and turn the breed into purely a companion. 

This in good circles is largely successful though one would never rely on same sex Staffords to be left alone together, as the gladiatorial spark once inflamed is still there, and they don't like to back down in a fight.

Now you can probably see where I am going with this, in some circles the exact opposite is the reason for breeding, the old fighting spirit is what is being bred for, for numpties to look hard, sadly sometimes they succeed, and of course the dogs pay the ultimate price.

So first of all, if your serious about getting involved with the legitimate Stafford community you need to see if your bitch is breeding quality. 

If she comes from a breeder who showed their dogs and chose their breeding partners with the breed standard in mind she may well be, if not she may well not be, but that doesn't matter at this point.

Join your nearest Staffordshire Bull Terrier breed club and subscribe to publications and annuals that will have breeders advertisements, articles on health and other matters.  If you can get historical ones going back several decades all the better as you can then see the development of various breed lines.

Attend some shows to see quality dogs, after a while you will notice that there are varying styles of dogs that all fit broadly into the breed standard.  See which ones appeal to you and you will probably see that they have common ancestry.

Look at your bitches pedigree and see which lines (if any known ones) she has.  Do not be shy contact the owners of the kennel names you find there and let them know you wish to learn.

Take your bitch to ring craft classes and start entering a few local shows to see WHO she does and hopefully to get some opinions on her quality.  If she isn't suitable to breed from no big deal, you Can enjoy learning with her, and use the next couple of years to make friends within the breed, develop an eye for the dogs you admire and get on a waiting list for a quality puppy you can show.  Who knows you may then wish to found a canine dynasty of your own. 

Realistically you would then be looking to owning up to at least 6 dogs eventually as they are long lived, so you may decide to leave the breeding to others and buy in a new puppy as and when you need, easier to keep numbers down that way.

Good luck.

As for the man offering his dog at stud, decline.  Good dogs only need to advertise themselves by the quality fo their offspring dn their conformity to breed standard and such adverts will be in breed publications for other breeders to see.

I wish there was a LIKE button, here Barbara, your reply is pretty much perfect, it should be the first paragraph of a breeders bible.

Dawn R.

Thank you for asking us and for seeking advice.

I would beg you DON'T do it.

My rescue is overflowing with Staffs and their crosses. We also have three huge litters of Staff and Staffx pups, all dumped on the rescue. If you could see these dogs it would break your heart. Staffs love company, kennels are not a good environment for them. All the Staff dog aggressive instincts that we try to breed out are magnified in this environment, making it harder to rehome them.

You may go into this with the best of intentions but I could almost guarantee that somewhere along the line one of your pups will end up in the wrong hands and the whole cycle will be perpetuated.

The stud owner has already expressed his interest in breeding blues- the guy is after money, he doesn't care about the breed. Enjoy your bitch, don't breed her and do something really positive for this breed.

I won't be allowing for Ella to breed with my partners friends stud I actually don't think I want her to breed with any other dog and am leaning towered getting her spayed to be honest. I spoke with my partner and put some of the things that you have advised of to him he wasn't aware she would need testing for different things or that the same would be required of the stud. Also as someone else has mentioned if giving a puppy to someone else is hard as it would be to give the mother dog away I would be heartbroken especially if he were to sell it on to an undesirable person who would not love he pup as we would.

Thank you everyone for replying and Barbara I will take your advice on board and will look into getting into contact with local groups for Stafford's, I will also get the book that's been mentioned but as Ella is still young I have no plans to let her mate any time soon if at all.

I am glad that you have thought hard about this.  Go to some Staffie events and join the local breed club it will allow you to share your love of the breed with other like minded people. 

You may even find that you want to do something more for the breed, they always need people to help with the rescue situation from fostering, home checking, to helping raise awareness and funds.

Hi StaffieElla, so nice to see someone asking for and taking on board the advice given. I would also like to add to this that we have at least two members on this board that have lost their beloved bitches whilst at the Vets having C-sections. That is a fact that unfortunately can happen from time to time and very devastating as we all love our dogs as family members.

> Thank you everyone for replying and Barbara I will take your advice on board and will look into getting into contact with local groups for Stafford's, I will also get the book that's been mentioned but as Ella is still young I have no plans to let her mate any time soon if at all.<

Ella - you have no idea just how heartening it is to read your reply    Too often here, we are accused of being "snobby" and elitist because we urge everyone not to breed unless there is a really, really good reason for it.   Thank you - and enjoy your Ella!

Ella should be speyed half way between seasons ideally - and she will bounce back afterwards with very few side-effects.   But can I make a suggestion to you - a friend has an ID tag on her speyed staffie's collar which clearly states "I AM SPEYED".   Bossy has gone "missing" twice on runs in the park, where there were groups of youths ......but has been "found" pretty quickly ....!

Thanks Lokis mum - when we have her done I will add it to her name tag

I too am thrilled at your reply Ella

Definitely agree with other posters; go along to some Stafford events, whether it be shows or even lure racing (great fun!!).  It's fab to meet like-minded people and have a good old socialise!

Hi 'StaffieElla' as others have highlighted breeding really is a big emotional and financial commitment.Also although rewarding it is really hard work and takes over your life for at least a couple of months.Good luck in whatever you decide to do.

Breeding is very tiring and very emotional and many don't realise that until it is too late. You often think you understand what it is all about, but your looking at it from the outside until you have the puppies there you can't understand the bond.

so agree. i wept buckets each time a puppy went and there was always one (in both litters i bred) that was extra special for some reason.
looking back, they all went to good homes and i still hear from them 6 years later but at the time it breaks your heart

Can't really add to any of the other posts, other than to say I nearly lost my girl on Friday a week after whelping. We're not out of the woods yet ... so guess it comes down to whether you're prepared for that, to lose your bitch? I can tell you it's the most awful feeling, waiting to find out whether you're going to take your girl home alive ... when it is you, NOT her, that has made the decision to mate.

I'm also new to this forum but would like to offer my advice.

My 4yo staffy has just recently had a litter of 6pups, I admit I did this for selfish reasons but I really wanted one of her puppies and I made sure I had people that were interested in puppies before the mating. That aside my advise would be NOT TO DO IT. Its the most stressful, heartbreaking (we lost a pup) thing I have ever done and as soon as the puppies have finished nursing I'm taking Amber (my bitch) straight to the vet to be spayed, as much research as I did nothing fully prepared me for what I had to go through, luckily there were no emergencies and the birth was fine but one of the pups were born with a hair lip and we had to had feed her every hour or so, unfortunately she only lasted 8days but the heartache was still horrendous.

Sorry if I seem all over the place but hopefully you get the just of it. Xx

When I went to the Cat and Dog home to look for a dog, 80% of the dogs/bitches there were Staffies/Staffie x.  They were not particularly wanting to let me have the dog I wanted (x collie-lab-greyound: so more or less, a lurcher) because they wanted him ideally to go to a country home but luckily when I explained my circumstances and experience with lurchers (all my previous bitches) and where I lived (quiet corner of town) etc they changed their mind. 

41 litters on this site at the moment!