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Previous Next Up Topic Dog Boards / Breeding / Double Merle Breeding rewarded at Westminster
By Merlot (***) Date 14.02.12 20:17 GMT
And we thought the UK had problems !!
http://www.astraean.com/borderwars/2012/02/westminster-rewards-cruelty.html
I have no knowledge of merles as they do not occur in my breed bt this has made me so anoyed with those who re just out for the trophys...
Aileen
"Dogs feel very strongly that they should always go with you in the car, to bark loudly in your ear!
By Brainless (*****) [gb] Date 14.02.12 20:54 GMT
Certainly the breeding of the sire (and probably the dog) was wrong, but at a show a judge rewards the dogs in front of him and in theory should not know anything about how they re bred and as long as the animal in front of them is fit and apparently healthy then they have done nothing wrong.

Slightly different:

Would you criticise the offspring of a dog blind from PRA (when it was not possible to know the parents were carriers) possessing outstanding characteristics being used to preserve it's positive traits by being mated to a clear partner once a DNA test becomes available, and thereby being able to breed the 'unaffected' and healthy carrier offspring to clear partners to obtain some clear offspring to continue with and be clear of the mutation?
Barbara and the Grey Curly Tails.
By PennyGC (***) [gb] Date 14.02.12 21:42 GMT
There is a lot of merle to merle breeding in the USA - eg seen a stud dog (sheltie) who's white and double merle - they like using them as they guarantee a litter of merles.  They don't appear bothered by the poor pups born deaf and/or blind (not all of them are affected).  Fortunately in UK merle to merle are no longer able to be registered.
Agility is fun
By MsTemeraire (***) [gb] Date 14.02.12 21:46 GMT

> Slightly different:
>
> Would you criticise the offspring of a dog blind from PRA (when it was not possible to know the parents were carriers) possessing outstanding characteristics being used to preserve it's positive traits by being mated to a clear partner once a DNA test becomes available, and thereby being able to breed the 'unaffected' and healthy carrier offspring to clear partners to obtain some clear offspring to continue with and be clear of the mutation?


No, I wouldn't, because it WASN'T possible to know the dog would go blind. But to deliberately breed KNOWING you will/may produce a dog blind and deaf from birth and then using it at stud churns my stomach.

I have bred small animals - cavies (guinea pigs) and hamsters both have a Roan gene which behaves very similarly to Merle, in that breeding two Roans together (in either species) can and will produce micropthalmic or anopthalmic whites - animals born smaller and weaker, pure white, and with either completely missing or abnormally tiny eyes.

I've always had a gripe that some pet stores (and one major well-known chain in the case of hamsters) often have animals with this gene on sale - leaving wide open the possibility that a novice will buy two and breed them together or, as is very common in these mass-bred factory farmed small animals, accidental pregnancies that occur may produce such offspring.

I am very very pleased our KC refuses to register merle-to-merle breedings and has refused to accept Merle as a 'new' colour in some breeds.

However that just leaves the BYBs and PFs to do as they wish, as they certainly will :-(  It certainly hasn't stopped the BYBs who are selling Merle Staffordshire Bull Terriers! eek

Dog rescues often get merle-to-merle bred litters of BCs and working sheepdogs - one would hope accidental, but who can say for sure?
Acquiring a dog may be the only opportunity a human ever has to choose a relative.
By Brainless (*****) [gb] Date 14.02.12 21:55 GMT
I agre the breeding of the sire and probably the dog was wrong, but the judge and show cannot be critiscised for rewarding a dog presented for judgement whose identity the judges are not supposed to know.

The AKC should not have permitted the registration of the double merle sire and then the dog in question would not be.
Barbara and the Grey Curly Tails.
By PennyGC (***) [gb] Date 14.02.12 22:01 GMT Edited 14.02.12 22:04 GMT
I am very very pleased our KC refuses to register merle-to-merle breedings and has refused to accept Merle as a 'new' colour in some breeds.

I am totally in agreement not to register merle-merle and also merle-sable and also merle-'true' red in border collies, but am aghast that the Beardie Collie clubs can be so against the colour when it's clear that there have always been merle beardie collies - although not many registered as such with the KC (but at least one has and others with colouring which can only be merle!).  With beardies it's not the merle which appears to be the issue but the introduction of working beardies (many happen to be merle!) - I wonder where the breed originated if not with the 'working' line?

With care as with many things the merle gene is not an issue - just don't double it up!  Unfortunately many back yard breeders and puppy farmers aren't interested in health or 'care' and will double up on merle and other things simply out of ignorance and stupidity :-(  Advertising 'rare mostly white pups with two merle parents' doesn't inspire confidence that they're 'responsible' breeders :-( 

Of course if they're WSDs (what a crazy situation!) then there's no issue over KC registration as they can't be on the breed register.
Agility is fun
By MsTemeraire (***) [gb] Date 14.02.12 22:29 GMT

> Of course if they're WSDs (what a crazy situation!) then there's no issue over KC registration as they can't be on the breed register.


That's why I brought up the hamsters and cavies, because they are totally unregulated, there are no registration bodies for them, and have been mass-produced in warehouses by commercial breeders - Pet Farmers if you like, so PF is appropriate! - for decades.

The breeders of WSDs, Merle Staffs, Merle Chihuahuas take as much responsibility for what they produce as the Pet Farmers.... i.e. zilch.

Maybe Marianne will remember the Twisty Cats in the 90's - which still fills me with horror to remember.... deliberate breeding of disabled, genetically malformed cats in the USA. That was clamped down on immediately by a worldwide show of revulsion... Something within me feels that deliberate Merle to Merle breeding of dogs i.e. the conscious and deliberate production of sick, less-able and quite frankly deformed dogs, and breeding from them - is on a par with that.

Great fuel for PETA and the anti-breeding lobby.... Do these people not realise how this appears to the rest of the world?

I am also not entirely happy that the AKC has chosen to recognise and welcome the Lundehund to Westminster; but that is another can of worms, albeit also playing into the hands of anti-breeder feeling.
Acquiring a dog may be the only opportunity a human ever has to choose a relative.
By PennyGC (***) [gb] Date 15.02.12 00:10 GMT
Please don't include all WSDs in this.... there are many responsible breeders of unregistered border collies
Agility is fun
By Goldmali (****) [gb] Date 15.02.12 00:10 GMT
Maybe Marianne will remember the Twisty Cats in the 90's - which still fills me with horror to remember.... deliberate breeding of disabled, genetically malformed cats in the USA. That was clamped down on immediately by a worldwide show of revulsion...

Gosh yes -funnily enough I was only thinking about them the other day. Sick.

I DON'T get why the AKC would register pups from such a terrible mating, but I do get Brainless' point -the judge should know nothing except what they see in front of them, so the judge is not to blame. The breeder and the AKC are.
Marianne. Dogs are not our whole lives, there are cats too!
By Gabrielle (***) [gb] Date 15.02.12 01:33 GMT
Fortunately in UK merle to merle are no longer able to be registered.

Penny, have you any details how this decision came about and the clubs got it to be agreed by the KC? Our breed club is currently trying to put a stop to merle x merle matings in our breed.

Thanks,
Gabrielle
Aussies are not for the faint hearted.....but they are like chocolates, you can't just have one !!!!
By Rhodach (***) [gb] Date 15.02.12 06:17 GMT
To have got to Westminster more than one judge has deemed the pattern to be acceptable regardless of whether the dog is partially deaf/blind, presumably totally deaf/blind would be picked up on in the ring.

I was watching the longhaired dachsies and was dreading seeing all the weird colour/pattern combinations, I was relieved to see 99% were red with a couple of cream mini's.
Rhona and the Long,Low and Level Hounds
By MsTemeraire (***) [kw] Date 15.02.12 07:05 GMT
It's the sire of the winning dog that is blind and deaf, and is at stud.... deliberately bred to be a double merle and thereby guaranteeing all merle litters when used.
Acquiring a dog may be the only opportunity a human ever has to choose a relative.
By Lily Mc (***) [gb] Date 15.02.12 08:27 GMT

>Fortunately in UK merle to merle are no longer able to be registered.


Unfortunately, only in Shelties as far as I'm aware?

Have had various discussions with Rough breeders about this, including those who did merle x merle matings and got entire litters of tri and blue merle puppies, thereby 'proving' that these matings are no problem really. Ummmm, no, you just got lucky. :-(

M.
It is better to stay silent and be thought an idiot than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.
By PennyGC (***) [gb] Date 15.02.12 08:43 GMT
No, the winning dog is ok - it's his sire who isn't, but can't be shown so you can't blame the judges at Westminster as they aren't supposed to know the dog's breeding....
Agility is fun
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