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Previous Next Up Topic Dog Boards / General / Selling a dog that has bitten?
By Goldmali (****) [gb] Date 09.07.12 14:55 GMT
I check a certain puppy website regularly,  to keep tracks of what is going on within my own breed. Recently an ad has appeared for an adult dog, which state the new owner must be firm and experienced because otherwise AT BEST(!!!) the buyer would end up in hospital and they have several people with scars from this dog to back that statement up. This ad scares me a LOT! They do ask for papers to be signed, I get the impression they want the buyer to say if they get bitten the seller takes no responsibility, but is there really no way people can be stopped from selling a dog that clearly can be dangerous? I has been trained in bitework, it comes from an irresponsible breeder (I know exactly who), and the seller I believe is its third home at least -at 2 years of age! I can't bear the thought of my breed being the next one splashed all over the papers after having killed a child, and I can just see this coming. Can I report the ad somewhere, other than to the site itself? CAN you advertise a dog this way legally, a dog that HAS bitten?
Marianne. Dogs are not our whole lives, there are cats too!
By Lea (****) [gb] Date 09.07.12 15:00 GMT
Could you report it to the police non emrgancy line.
As surely it is classed as a dangeroud dog, well should be???
Lea :-)
By Ida (*) [gb] Date 09.07.12 22:53 GMT
There was a news item on the television recently, about a man who received a prison term because his dog had badly injured a small child. Before he was found, he had sold the dog to someone else, without telling the new owner that there had been a problem. :-(
By Ells-Bells (***) [gb] Date 10.07.12 05:05 GMT
I think you really must inform the police first, perhaps RSPCA etc and then the website - make sure you keep a copy of the ad.

For the good of your breed as well as all dogs and the safety of the general public, you have to do it!

Please let us know what happens
By Hethspaw (**) [gb] Date 10.07.12 07:01 GMT
I think you really must inform the police first, perhaps RSPCA etc and then the website - make sure you keep a copy of the ad.

Theres nothing illegal at all about selling a dog 'trained in bitework'.
By Jeangenie (*****) [gb] Date 10.07.12 07:05 GMT
There is if it has bitten.
A closed mouth gathers no feet
By Lea (****) [gb] Date 10.07.12 07:07 GMT
But surely with these words in the advert :-

>the buyer would end up in hospital and they have several people with scars from this dog to back that statement up


then those words mean this dog is not trained in bite work???
Lea :-) :-)
By Hethspaw (**) [gb] Date 10.07.12 07:11 GMT
CAN you advertise a dog this way legally

Yes certainly.

a dog that HAS bitten?

There are hundreds of thousands of dogs throughout Europe which are being trained in bitework every day, including UK, Sch & ringsports.

Why is that people object to this but never object to dogs being trained to stand on their hind legs, walk backwards on their hindlegs & other physically awkward positions, alien to the dogs natural behaviour, to carry out human interest entertainment sports such as 'heelwork to music' & related without any mandatory health tests to see if the dog is susceptible to suffer back, hip or other structural health problems in the short, medium or long term!?

Serious question btw.
.
By Jeangenie (*****) [gb] Date 10.07.12 07:14 GMT Edited 10.07.12 07:20 GMT
Unrelated scenarios, Denis. Heelwork to music, for example, has never (to my knowledge) left a human requiring hospital treatment.

If this dog has bitten several people, leaving scars, then it's not been trained in bitework.

Goldmali, take a copy of the advert to a police station; this dog has been used as a weapon which makes it illegal in private hands.
A closed mouth gathers no feet
By lilyowen (**) Date 10.07.12 07:15 GMT
Goldmali perhaps you could buy it and then take it to the vets? A sad end but it might be the best for both the breed and the dog?
If I agreed with you we'd both be wrong
By parrysite (**) [gb] Date 10.07.12 07:31 GMT
I think the vast majority of us here have no problem with schutzhund or dogs trained to bitework, however the reaction to this ad isn't REALLY about the bitework is it? Even if it had been trained properly and would only bite when instructed, It's more about the fact this dog is being advertised where it shouldn't be advertised.

Edited to add: And let's face it, the dog is not TRAINED in bitework, it is just dangerous.
Josh
By Goldmali (****) [gb] Date 10.07.12 07:34 GMT
lilyowen -I don't have a four figure sum to spare.......

Everyone else -the fact a dog is trained in bite work doesn't mean it will go round biting people, in fact it should be as safe as any other dog, but the ad states it has bitten people because they could not control it. A properly trained dog, be it a police dog or whatever else trained in bite work, do not go around putting people in hospital -a properly trained dog can be controlled. This dog is described as cannot be controlled by just anyone. Surely that type of dog should not be advertised on a general pet puppy website? If they must sell it (again) then there are better channels to do it through. But I would hazard a guess that as it has NOT been snatched up by say the police and IS advertised at a site where you would normally find oodles of doodles etc, then nobody professional wants it as it isn't good enough. It's also too cheap despite its high price compared to an untrained dog -I'd expect a well trained dog like this to be 3 or 4 times more and have known the police to pay 7 times more. The ad seems to be aimed at the completely wrong type of person.

Will go and get a copy of the ad right now. I think most of you can work out where to find it for yourselves if anyone wants a look.
Marianne. Dogs are not our whole lives, there are cats too!
By drover (**) [gb] Date 10.07.12 07:36 GMT
There is a HUGE difference in a dog that is trained in bite work and one that has an unstable temperament. One of my own is trained in bite work/man work, I can tell you that she has never just bitten someone of her own accord, only dogs with a stable temperament and this with solid foundation training should be trained this way and if trained properly the dog will have the necessary confidence and training to not bite without instruction unless such a scenario happens in which the dog has no option but to deploy itself... But again the dog should be trained well enough to respond immediately to any command given.

Being trained in bite work does not = aggressive (mine is 100%trustworthy around children and any people -as are many others).

Going by the description of this dog it sounds dangerous, at best a liability, Im not sure there is anything the police can do until an incident occurs though.
By drover (**) [gb] Date 10.07.12 07:36 GMT
Posted at the same time marianne!
By Goldmali (****) [gb] Date 10.07.12 07:38 GMT
And I fully agree with you drover. :-)
Marianne. Dogs are not our whole lives, there are cats too!
By Hethspaw (**) [gb] Date 10.07.12 07:43 GMT
be it a police dog or whatever else trained in bite work, do not go around putting people in hospital

True, true

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQpu9UoXCeM
By lilyowen (**) Date 10.07.12 07:47 GMT

> lilyowen -I don't have a four figure sum to spare.......


A FOUR FIGURE SUM!!!! for a dog that sounds like a complete liability!! OK. I agree buying it is not an option.
If I agreed with you we'd both be wrong
By mcmanigan773 (**) [gb] Date 10.07.12 08:47 GMT
Ive not seen the exact advert but have seen the same breed, similar described situation on another website yesterday, they could have placed adverts in several places perhaps?
By ali-t (***) [gb] Date 10.07.12 08:58 GMT
Marianne I would try the police first and if they are not interested then the dog warden.  the only saving grace I can see is that the price you have said is a 4 figure sum which should put off any neds but I would imagine there are plenty daftys out there who would see this dog as a good investment.  What a scary thought. :-(
The artist formerly known as cheekychow! - with a staffy and a rottie not a chow, but very cheeky!
By mastifflover (***) Date 10.07.12 09:02 GMT
Does the advert say the dog has been trained in 'bitework' or do you know that it has been trained in bitework by a reputable trainer?

I don't know much about bitework, but would assume that the training for it is very much like any other sort of training, in so much as it's possible to try to train it yourself and therefore does not mean the dog has been trained reputably in 'bitework', just trained to attack.

The poor dog sounds like it has been used as a status symbol or even a weapon. It doesn't sound like the average family pet that snapped at the toddler for teasing it so now needs to be re-homed, it sounds like it could be a very dangerous animal.

I would try the police, surely they can see that it is going to be most likely bought as a weapon, not a project for a decent human being to try to re-train.
start weight 145lbs . goal weight 140lbs (reached). New goal weight 133lb. current weight 139lb.
By rachelsetters (***) [fr] Date 10.07.12 09:12 GMT
I take it your breed rescue couldn't help/advise? but a four figure sum - yikes!

Do puppies in your breed go for four figures Marianne?  That's a lot of money for a 'dodgy' dog :-(
By Goldmali (****) [gb] Date 10.07.12 09:22 GMT
Rachel -no, breed rescue couldn't possibly get involved in this kind of situation. Normal price for a wellbred pup around 650, the selling point here being the dog has been trained.......
Marianne. Dogs are not our whole lives, there are cats too!
By JoStockbridge (**) [gb] Date 10.07.12 10:16 GMT
Does the advert say the dog has been trained in 'bitework' or do you know that it has been trained in bitework by a reputable trainer?


Seen the add he mentions its trained in search work, man work and it realy likes bite work. but doesnt say who trained it.

Wonder what will happen to the dog if he gets no offers, but i can imagin there will be someone willing.
By Carrington (****) [gb] Date 10.07.12 10:54 GMT
Sorry Goldmali, I know your heart is in the right place but IMO it is not illegal what is going on here.

The owner is disclosing that the dog could bite if not with an experienced owner, the DDA and police can only get involved if a person is bitten or feels threatened and reports it, if this dog has bitten previously it must not have been reported by the previous owners or other people otherwise the dog could be seized or owner prosecuted.

The now owner can't be prosecuted by a new owner as there is disclosure and a signed statement for the new owner by all accounts.

Don't see what anyone can do.......... there is certainly nothing illegal her IMO.

If the dog were being advertised as a dog for fighting, that could be reported, but seems not from what you have indicated.

A family is not going to take on this dog nor anyone who wants a 'normal' dog.

The only people who would have it are perhaps do-gooders who think they can change a dog and it would be different with some love and find themselves bitten or endangering others. Or someone experienced (as the add asks for) who can re-train and take it on.

The dogs character is out in the open there is nothing hidden here..........

But, I do agree in the wrong hands the dog could be lethal, but not until something happens can anything be done. :-(
By Goldmali (****) [gb] Date 10.07.12 11:19 GMT
Seen the add he mentions its trained in search work, man work and it realy likes bite work. but doesnt say who trained it.

I know who trained it, and it is a trainer/breeder I would steer VERY clear of -no qualifications, uses prong collars and similar, will even take a dog in for boarding and train it in "personal protection" for any pet owner that wants to pay up....... Dodgy person all round -and I say that from personal experience. This is not the current owner but it is who trained the dog at least initially in this type of work.
Marianne. Dogs are not our whole lives, there are cats too!
By Goldmali (****) [gb] Date 10.07.12 11:20 GMT
But, I do agree in the wrong hands the dog could be lethal, but not until something happens can anything be done. :-(

This is what I was hoping would not be the case, but you're no doubt right. :-(
Marianne. Dogs are not our whole lives, there are cats too!
By freelancerukuk (***) Date 10.07.12 11:37 GMT Edited 10.07.12 11:43 GMT
On the other hand perhaps it is an empty boast- there is certainly a market for attack dogs, awful though that is. Perhaps talk of the dog having sacrred people etc.. is simply a way of ensuring a large sum of money exchanges hands. Still, pretty revolting all the same.

Also wanted to add that I would think that anyone openly advertising that their dog has already bitten and scarred people (outside of a law enforcement role) owing to a bite work, might be treading a thin line legally. I would certainly let the police etc.. know, since on the face of it this person is advertising that they may have a dangerous dog that has formerly bitten and left scars and therefore possibly was not under proper control at the time. I can only think this is a money making ruse or some deeply dodgy stuff is going on-  either way, I'd be inclined to report it.
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