I have been undecided about chipping etc. so have been following this thread with interest.
As we have a few knowledgable people here, would you put my mind at rest please?

Gem is a year old ESS who is never happier than when she is deep in hedges etc.
If I have her chipped, would the bonding agent be strong enough to stop the chip moving as she pushes through thickets and hedges and sqeezes herself under fences etc.? (she's still young enough to think that if her head fits, the rest of her should !!)

Alan

Alan, as the chip is hidden between her shoulder blades it shouldn't be affected by her working conditions. It really doesn't matter which form of ID that you use just as long as you use one. Working gundogs are prime targets for Dog Thiefs. The only thing that this thread has taught me is that IF I was getting it done, then I personally, would rather get a Vet to do it. At least you know then if there is a "problem", it will be logged and you will have some redress at a higher level.

Leigh

Christine sorry, something that I forgot to ask ! How long is a training course to become an operator ? Can anyone take a course? Could I ?

Leigh

Thanks Leigh
Alan

Following a phone conversation I have some amended answers to Leigh's questions

1)Who monitors the "chipper"?
If you get the chips from Pet Id then they monitor the chipper - if they get complaints about migration then they will contact the chipper and if necessary retrain

2)Is there a governing body? Ultimately the RCVS - they have agreed that lay-people can microchip because it is non-invasive to body cavaties (see below)

3)Who do the operators answer to ? Company supplying the chips (who should not supply unless you have trained)

4)Are regular 'spot checks' carried out on operators?
5)How often do you have to attend a refresher course ?
4 & 5) There are hopefully guidelines being set up re training and microchipping and these should be covered within it

~~~~~

The training course is not long. I had a private session because I still had Leonie then and could not get out to one of the official ones, I think they take a few hours/day because there are more people involved.

If I can learn to do it then anyone can <g>. I primarily did the course because I wanted to microchip my puppies before they left me (without paying vets nearly £30 a time), so that if ever anything went wrong they were traceable back to me. It also meant I could get my adults rabies jabbed.

~~~~

The reason that anyone can chip (after being trained) is that it is considered non-invasive because it only goes under the skin, and not into body cavaties. Therefore even if the dog or cat are chipped slightly off centre and the chip migrates then it is still only just under the skin and if it moves to somewhere awkward it is only a small procedure to remove it.

Do you realise that this is probably the longest thread here at the moment that has not diverged from the original topic

Christine

Christine, thank you for taking the trouble to get some answers for me/us

Yes, I did notice that we managed to stay "on topic" ....amazing ! lol

I hope that Leisure has the answers that they wanted?

I would still be interested to know if anyone has had any "chip" linked problems with there dogs though. Then again, if there is no central register logging problems it would be hard to collate such information.

Thanx again Christine.

Leigh

Not a major problem as such but my sister's rescue colliex was chipped by the RSPCA and about 6 months later, she noticed a moving "lump" just at the side of her chest. She took her to the vets and had the chip removed and another one put in.

Helen

Hello Leigh

I noticed in a previous message you have said you would rather get a vet to chip your dogs, this is very confusing as the impression I was given is that some vets chip into the neck, which is not correct. I suppose really you have to vet the vet.

Can you tell me if the chip moving is the only problem encountered ?.

I have read all the replies and I am still undecided. It appears you pay your money and take your chance.

I would like to thank you all for taking the time to reply

Leisure

I had a 4month old puppy chipped by a vet 3 years ago and the chip migrated very quickly to her elbow. It was removed and reinserted and has remained in place (between the shoulder blades) ever since. My vet was most concerned because he thought the casing of the chip (ceramic?) could shatter if the dog had knocked it against a tree or something. This put me off chipping and I don't like tattooing either because one hears such horror stories of the lengths people go to to remove them. Maybe dna profiling is the way forward.
Joy

Joy, you will always get to hear the horror stories. But put it into perspective

Thousands of dogs are tattooed/chipped. Terrible things do happen, but they are not common place. Many dogs are found and returned to their owners eventually.
Some after many, many months.

If your dog should happen to fall into the hands of someone who would go to such lenghs as to remove a tattoo/chip ..... then your dog was in big trouble long before it got to that stage!

Many dogs are lost or stolen daily. I would rather take a chance and stack the odds in my favour to get my dog back, than not have some form of permanent ID and never know if that could have been the one link that returned them to me.

Leigh

The only other problem with the chip is if the chip itself fails and therefore cannot be read by a scanner. It has happened but only in a few cases and some of the failures were due to a trauma to the chip rather than the chip itself failing to function. Whom ever chips your dog should be making sure the scanner can read the chip BEFORE it is inserted into the dog. It is best to watch them do it if you haven't seen them then ask them to check with you there before chipping takes place.
I trained, like Christine, primarily to be able to chip all my pups and register them in my name prior to them going to their new homes. The course I attended lasted a day. Theory in the morning with practical in the afternoon.

Bec apart from the scanner not working what happens if they don't have a scanner full stop ? I know that more and more organisations have them these days but at least with a tatoo you can see the number without having to use any equipment, providing you know to look for it of course I also like to think that because the tatoo is visible if someone were to try and steal my dogs they would hopefully be checking for any id and this may put them off as my personal opinion is it would be harder and more obvious if a tatoo was removed than a chip.

I have my dogs tatooed and this is what I prefer however I am not totally against chipping and it is certainly better than no id at all. So far I have had no problems with tatooing and don't know of many people who have which is probably why I am happy with this form of id. There's pros and cons with both forms of id and at the end of the day it is down to the individual.

What a nice and sensible debate we are all having, I am also finding it very informative, I hope everyone else is too

Kind regards.

Pet-ID, the company I trained with, stated at the course that they are trying to ensure that ALL dog wardens, rescue centres, councils etc have one of their scanners. I know that not all centres use the scanners they have already but by the same token these same centres don't check for tattoos either! That is where the main problem is educating these people to actually check for chips or tattoos.
The problem I have with tattoos is that not all of them are legible and handling the ear of a frightened dog is more difficult than running a scanner over it from the experience I have had. The tattoo my dog has is not only illegible but the vast majority of it is obscured by hair. The tattoos in one of my friends dogs have faded over time and neither of them are particularly legible now so as you can see my experience of tattooing is not a particularly good one!!
Bec

All bar one of my dogs are tattooed. 12 years on the tattoos are still highly visable! Maybe I was just lucky and found an excellent tattooist. Having been involved with Rescue work for many years I have seen lots of tattoos. Some excellent and some not so good. The bottom line is that the only specialist piece of equipment that I needed to read a tattoo was my eyesight!

Leigh

Best to have a word with your vet Leisure and discuss all these issues and see what their response is. Bec's suggestion is a very good one. My vet scanned before inserting and again after inserting (2 different vets, 2 different dogs). I then ask them to scan and read them about once a year with their injections.

Wendy

Hi Leisure.

To be quite frank with you, I would rather not have ANY of my dogs chipped.

What I said was .. IF I had to have them done, then I would prefer a vet to do it. A vet would be better qualified to deal with any problem that presented. You would also have some redress at a higher level if things really got out of hand.

I would agree with you that "you pay's your money and takes your chance". You just have to weigh up all the information that you are given and make a choice.

Don't hesitate to ask the "awkward" questions if it gets you the answers that you need to make your decision

Leigh

With regard to scanners. More and more people and rescue centres are getting them now and I would think that every vet has one - they need them to be able to chip in the first place.

Three of mine (black dobermanns) are tattooed, the oldest is seven and the other two are four. The oldest you would not know had been done and the other two you can see something but not read it. If they had got loose I doube anyone they did not know would be able to hold their ears still long enough to try to deciper any of it.

Untill the last two litters I had them all tattooed and I don't remember seeing any that were perfect thoughtout their lives.

Even if you can read the tattoo you still need to know who to ring to find out the information - the NDTR have moved around abit in the last few years.

As the Microchipping sites have been posted, in the interests of fairness here is the NDTR http://www.dog-register.co.uk/

Christine

Well Christine as we have said all along, there are good and bad in BOTH forms of ID I am more than happy with my tattoos as I am sure many other people are too!
As I have said time and again, surely it does not matter WHICH form of ID that you use just as long as you use one! Then again I do not carry out either procedure myself, so do not have a vested interest in promoting a favoured method.

Leigh

As I was tattooing for a lot longer than I have so far been chipping I have yet to personally discover the set backs - I suppose there is always freeze branding as they do on horses as an alternative

Christine

Well that would certainly make an interesting alternative ! lol. Leigh

If they started freeze marking we could hide white patches
instead of dyeing them as some in our breed do
(hands on heart say i have never done either)
Carolyn

What gets my goat, with talk of compulsory ID, is that we are forced down the chip route, take the PETS travel schem as an example. I want to have the CHOICE of chip or tattoo, or in my case BOTH!!

I totally agree with you Brainless! I am sick to death of being forced to do what is considered to be in my best interests by people who think that they know better

Leigh.

Edit at 13.30

Hi everyone.

Someone came to our dog training club tonight to insert chips. She had brought a scanner with her. I have chipped all of my Spanish Water Dogs but had my youngest with me tonight. Guess what, no chip was found. She checked the whole of the body to see if it had migrated. Now I'll have to have my other dog checked who was done on the same day by an RSPCA team. The woman who was there tonight said that the ones that the RSPCA are not very good and can migrate!!

Has anyone else had a similar problem? I will be contacting the co. tomorrow and I'll keep you all up to date. I do know that on the day they said that they had a number of faulty (not sure in what way) chips!!

We had a Fox Terrier like cross come to our training class, he had been chipped at Bristol Dogs Home, and it could be clearly felt half way down his shoulder blade. They were quite worried by it, as I would have been, I have my pups tattooed, but also get my lot chipped, touch wood no problems so far!

It is always best to ensure that the person chipping actually checks the chip with a scanner BEFORE inserting it into the dog!

Tee hee..TIC...methinks...

A chipping course at the college of animal welfare at wood green shelter in godmanchester, cambs costs £90 (or did a couple of years ago.) Anyone can take the course. Contact them direct. (sorry new to net and cant work out links.) New legislation is being worked on to mean that all dogs will have to be permanently id'ed by chip or tattoo in approx 3 years. I used to have all mine tattoed, but NOT ONE of the thirty odd dogs we had done has a a readable tattoo now. I put in a lot more info about chipping practice in an earlier message, and if anyone has a query they would like to direct to me personally (never get round to reading every reply on this page) then e-mail jane@granadan.freeserve.co.uk

Christine

Thankyou all once again for your replies.

I am still keeping my options open. There seems to be for and against with whatever form of indentifcation you chose.

I have only just picked up on your point about tatoos, apart from the problem of some tatoos not being easy to read is there a possibility that they can cause haematomas or the ear to split. ?

Regards
Leisure

Why one? I use them as complimentary, if one fails hopefully the other doesn't!!!

Hi Leisure,

I know they can cause haematomas as have seen this (once), and it is a mess until it heals up which can take a long, long time..

I don't know about splitting ears but if the tattooist is not quick enough and the dog pulls away hard - who knows.

My main concern is with them not being legible - which may be because I have black dogs although the skin in the ear is not black and even when cleaned and shaved the tattoo's are not readable.

I suppose maybe we should all go for safe rather than sorry and have them tattooed, microchipped, freeze branded - AND I have come up with another method (apart from the collar tag with mini radios) - ear tags as they do with cattle!!

Now ducking in case anyone throws anything at me

Christine

Hello

Haematomas can also be caused by a dog shaking its head or scratching to vigorously. In the scheme of things how many of the thousands of dogs tattooed every year suffer from Haematomas caused by tattooing?

Splitting ears. I must admit that is a new one on me Wouldn't that come under Haematomas? Ears have a tendency to split after the dog has suffered one of those.
Surely, the same applies to a "Chipper"? If they are not quick enough and the dog moves then the chip or instrument used to insert it will do some "damage".

I have seen quite a few black or liver coloured dogs tattooed.The lovely green tattooes were visible in most cases. And those that weren't to clear would no doubt have been unclear in a ANY dog no matter what the colour.

Ear tags .....lol
Nice one Christine!
No doubt the Anti-Ear Tag brigade would argue that ear tags, could cause haematomas, split ears and would be totally unreadable when the other dogs in the house cleaned (chewed) them. Not to mention if they moved !!! lol

Leigh

Just thought I'd add my own experiences with Microchipping Parrots over the last few yrs.

All my birds have been chipped by a specialist Avian Vet as each speices needs to be chipped in a different place, have to say I would not allow the same vet to chip my puppies he freely admits Avian medicine is his scene not dogs lol. Non of my birds have suffered injury when being chipped due to their struggling or grabbing the vets hand once he's commited to inserting the chip, their feet make a cat's claws scratch look like nothing they hang on for dear life not gonna tell you how many times I've been 'peirced by a young Parrot! Non of the chips have migrated and non of the birds seem particularly bothered once they had been allowed to stand again.

I think the biggest problem we face as owners of any livestock is lack of education amongst rescue centre's, police, vets etc so many accept stories from people that show up with new 'adult' dogs etc but fail to check for chips as a matter of course - there was a report a few wks back showing how a dog had been stolen and taken to a new vet with it's new owners etc with no scanning done. It was reunitied with it's true owners only when someone spotted the dog recognised it and went to the police, it was then scanned and found to have been 'missing' for months.

All my dogs are chipped and my next litter will be chipped before they leave me that way I know I have done the best I can as a breeder to protect my puppies even if god forbid they are stolen. Would like to 'early neuter' all the pet puppies to making sure they can not be used as breeding machines by people who think it would be nice to have a litter of unusual puppies but that's another story lol.

Bec did some of my dogs a few wks ago, believe me Schipperkes are babies when it comes to pain - we only had one dog move he rolled on his back for a tummy rub just as the chip went in! Bec scanned him and guess what - the chip was right between his shoulder blades just where it should have been and not a drop of blood anywhere not even on my daughters little pomeranian dog.

I had mine microchipped at 10 weeks with his first jab

Daniel

I rehomed my dog when he was 10 months and when I went to the vets I asked about micro-chipping. Her opinion was that if you want it done, then fine, but she personally thought that is unesseccary to micro-chip unless your dog tends to stray etc. So therefore I did not have my dog chipped, as he never strays and I am confident that its not required in my case.

All very well (and I'm not a particular fan of microchipping) but what if (God forbid) he was stolen, escaped and got lost trying to find his way home? It happens.