Never buy a puppy from someone if you would not be willing to return it to them at a later date if things go wrong.

How many times do you hear someone say, when wanting to get rid of their dog "Oh, I could not return it to the breeder because of the way their dogs were housed"

Perhaps we should add something like this to the advise we give potential puppy purchasers?

Comments anyone?

Christine

Hi Christine,

I think that there is only so much advice that you can offer potential puppy buyers.At the end of the day they will do there own thing anyway! All you can do is try to help and hope they take your advice

Over the years people have been told time and again NOT to buy from Pet shops, only see pups with their mothers and never buy the pup if it looks unhealthy etc.

How many times have you heard someone say " oh but I only bought it because I was appalled at the conditions it was kept in" or "..but I felt sorry for it being stuck in that pet shop" etc etc.

I have just returned from walking my lot in the woods. I met a couple with a 5 month old Saint B. pup. They informed me that they had bought it earlier that day from a Pet Shop. The Pet Shop had a litter of 11 pups to sell. They had gone into the shop for CAT FOOD and came out with a pup that they had not considered having maybe an hour earlier !! When asked why they had bought it, they said that they had felt sorry for it and that they KNEW that they shouldn't have, but didn't want to leave him there in such cramped conditions.

When I hear things like this I just wonder why any of us bother

Leigh.

I can't believe Pet Shops are still getting away with selling pups. Forgive my ignorance but is there not a law to stop this from happening, if not then there certainly should be. I can still remember as a child going into pet shops and seeing puppies and kittens in these tiny glass tanks (probably fish tanks) and it disgusts me to think that after 20 odd years very little has changed

Sadly I don't believe there is a law against it; our local free paper carried a pet shop adcvert (this shop has been sellng for many years) and also had x Shar-pei pup photo in the advert.

I was appalled and rang the paper, but they said that the pet shop was allowed to sell puppies and that if I was truly concerned I should ring trading standards. I explained all about seeing pups and mum, illnesses being spread, hereditary problems, no breeder backup etc (i'm sure there is a lot more but couldn't think of it at the time) but although the customer services was helpful, she could not do anything, cclaimed that if theywere a bad pet shoop they would have closed down by now, and that the Shar-pei puppy was in fact a photo of her friend's dog and that they were not actualllyselling this breed.

A friend ofmine went in there a few years ago and aske dthe assistant how they knew the pups would go to good homes, and was told "oh, we can always tell what people are like". Honestly!

No, its not against the law but they do have to get a License from the Local Authorities. This particular shop has had everything from Sibes to Rotties to the usual popular breeds and all are sold for big pennies. If you make enough fuss you can have the pedigree papers with them too! It is not unusual to see pup's of this age and older on their premises.

Leigh.

That sounds terrible - are the papers genuine? Why do people give these pups to ththe pet shops in the first place?

Yes, the papers that I saw were genuine KC reg papers. I was shown the paperwork for a Golden and it made horrific reading. The people had bought the dog in good faith and as a pedigree. When I asked them about the documents, they were hand~ written, so I put her straight . When pushed, the shop came up with the KC Reg.There was a printed warning on them that both parents had HD. The owners had no idea what this meant.The pups had originated from Wales, but Wales is not the only source for pups.The dog has been very ill and I know that it will not make old bones. They paid a fortune for this pup and have had nothing but heartache over it. Very sad indeed.

Leigh

I can't believe the papers checked out! I've got an aquaintance who bought a pup from a pet shop recently that turned out to be very poorly. (If I'd known they were buying one I'd have told them to go to a reputable breeder). It too had pedigree papers but I'm sure they are a complete fabrication. Being an owner rather than a breeder I don't no much about these things - but are papers ever forged?

I would expect so, but these are the real thing ! I was once told by a well known puppy farmer, that for a price, they could supply me with a pedigree for any breed I care to mention ! I am sure that this woman is not the only one to provide such a service.

Leigh

She didn't tell you where she supplied them to did she - was wondering if this shop was one of them!! I can't believe what some people do for a fast buck, don't they realise the puppies' health is at risk from things like this....I suppose they don't care do they?

I doubt that she supplied the shop in question, but who knows for sure.
No, they do not care. Puppies are merely a commodity.

That is interesting because if the pedigrees are from the KC then something can be done about it. One of the KC rulings is that puppies/dogs should not be sold to pet shops, laboratories etc. Report the breeders to the KC. Or am I dreaming?

No, your not dreaming but the KC don't do anything when you do report it :rolleyes: Leigh

In our breed we have a Large Puppy Supermarket that sources pups from a person in Northern Ireland. Some of the new owners joined our Breed Club, and we got the Registration of future litters stopped by proving that they had broken the KC General Code of Ethics, this did no good at all as they at first registered some litters with this stores own registry, then transfered the bitch to new ownership, and more litters were registered with the KC. To be fair to the KC they do not know that the pups have gone through a third party, as the documents have the breeders details, and the new owner will transfer the pup to their name (or more often not), so the third party doesn't show up in KC records.

When they brought out the new Breeding Welfare bill, the people in welfare and breeders group argued for this, but the government won't stop this as it would seem this would be an unfair restraint on trade.

IN MY HUMBLE OPINION IF NON CAGED SPECIES (CATS AND DOGS) WERE NO LONGER ALLOWED TO BE SOLD THROUGH PET SHOPS/PUPPY SUPERMARKETS THEN IT WOULD BE THE BIGGEST BLOW TO PUPPY FARMING. Every single puppy would then have to be sold to the general Public direct. Imagine the extra manpower involved for these people, how many could stand that much scrutiny. I am sure some would still buy feeling sorry for the pups, but how many complaionts to their local authorities might result. It might also mean that they had to improve their facilities because of all these people seeing the conditions.

Never thought of it like that but yes, your right! And the people would see the conditions they were kept under!

John

Hi Christine, I think thats excellent advice idea , a slant I hadn't thought of before.

An interesting question! Years ago I sold a puppy to a woman, itold her if the hip score is higher than 12 do not breed from it. The average score in those days was 7 in total.
I happened to be looking for a pup and was told by the litter register secretary that a bitch I had bred had a litter registered, with her. I rang up and was told that the bitch had a hip score of 14, but I would need to understand her background.
I asked if the owner could tell me something about the bitch, as she obviously had not realised that I was the bitches breeder. She told me that she had bought the pup because she felt sorry for it! The home it had come from was horrific! There were rusty old cars in the garden it was full of broken bottles and weeds, (my garden was open to the public for viewing, known especially for the collection of Iris). She went on to say that the man selling the pups was a gipsy and kept trying to increase the price on her! (My ex was dark skinned but as respectable as any other). She went on the woman was wearing dirty clothes and had bad teeth, ( my dentist is not aware of this!) The children were filthy and went around half dressed no shoes and had very snotty noses, (farm children can get mucky but not as she described). The pups were all pot bellied and flea ridden, when she got the pup home she immediately wormed it and for two days solid it passed nothing but worms! (My vet checked all the puppies and wormed them before they left me)
So would you buy from such a source and would you return a puppy to such a home? The woman had not realised she was speaking to me, from whom she had got her puppy. Out of interest I followed the line she bred, she kept a pup it scored 15, the next generation there was a score of 14 and a later generation scored 15. So it came down the line. These days flatcoats are still averaging 9 total.

Our breed Club encourages the use of endorsements, this cannot stop the person from breeding, but in order to register a litter they would have to come back to you to lift it. the KC state you must inform the puppy buyer of the endorsements, and what their effect is, and under which if any circumstances you will lift it. this means that a potential breeder will have to keep ongoing dialogue with you at least. In my breed such a Hip Score is the average, and most people would use a good dog or bitch with a score of say 5 higher, and breed to a lower than average scoring partner. I try to ensure that the two parents scores when added together and then halved come to less than the breed average.

Unfortunately people are quite capable of misrepresenting another person to put themselves in a better light, or absolve themselves of blame!

Hi Brainless

I *think* that with hip scores you should add the sire, dam, breed's average score and then hope that the pups are no more than the total divided by three.

I mated a 1 and a 4 together but the breed average is 10, so instead of being a 2 or 3, I could expect the resulting pup to be around 5. I will be having the pup I kept scored in a few month so will see the result. (fingers crossed)

I previously mated a 7 and a 0 together (with the average of 10 that gives just over five) and the bitch I kept was a four so was close to what could be expected from averages.

Christine

That is interesting, I never thought of it that way, as my dogs have been within a few points of the average. when available I have added the four Grandparents together also, and that works well enough. My oldest is a 13, mated to a dog of 11, produced two scored daughters of 8 and 9. Mated to a dog of 13 produced a daughter also of 13! The daughter of 9 mated to a 13 produced a bitch scoring 12 (The Granparents added and divided came to 12). Then this 12 scoring bitch was mated to a dog scoring 12, and the daughter I have just made up was scored at just over a year when under anasthetic for some other procedure, and I was a little disappointed with 14, as several of the Grandparents scores were lower. I would normally not have had her scored until over 18 months, when she had finished growing her bones.

Since we are talking hips, it is almost impossible to work out hip scores, because like many other problems in dogs it is polygenic in nature, and while it is hereditary it is only about 35% - 45% inherited and it needs a "trigger factor" to cause a problem. The trigger factors being diet, exercise, rearing, trauma, ill health etc....
All you can do is your best, don't breed from anything more than 4 or 5 points above the breed average and use one parent of any potential puppies which scores lower than average. I mated a 0-0 scoring bitch to a 2-2 dog and one puppy scored a shocking 29!!!!! nother thing which you have to consider, is a dog which scores 2-12 the leading question being "Which is the real hip?" In other words has this dog had an injury to cause the imbalance or is the high score hereditary? If it is an injury you should be ok breeding wise, but if it is inherited does that dog carry the possibility to pass on a hip score of 12-12? Ideally you should use a dog or bitch for breeding with as near as possible equal scoring hips.

From what I understand of Malcolm Willis writings on the subject, that the heritable component of HD is Bilateral, and any difference of more than a couple of points does not point to heredity, therefore one would expect the lower scoring side to be true indicator. In our breed there are two ch littersisters, one scored 3/3 the other 3/18 or similar, when the breeder sought advise this is what she was told! Incidentally the first bitch produced a puppy scoring 0/0 only the second one ever recorded in our breed!

I'm sure that Polly will now tell you that when, a few years ago Malcolm Willis was asked this very question at a seminar he would not give a straight answer! Yes, I'm inclined to agree with you, in most cases!

John

Will some one explain to me what HIP SCORING Is and how it works, thanks Danny

Hi Danny

It's quite simple(sic)

The 7 areas of the hip joint are checked from x ray plates against perfectly formed hips & each part is marked on the degree of abnormality from 0 to 6

therefore perfect hips are 0:0=0

& completely bad hips 54:54=108

most dogs fall somewhere in the lower range

I've had a GSD with perfect hips & a BC with a high score

Never had any problems walking running etc but I would not breed from the BC

John is quite right, we did ask Malcolm Willis this question at a seminar and we didn't get a straight reply hence the question. In reality I agree with John and your results, which sugggest the the lower score is the "real hip".