We have just joined a waiting list for a Toller puppy from a litter that is due in January. I spent quite a while talking to the breeder this morning and we are hoping to go and see him and his dogs in a couple of weeks time.

In the mean time we have a few really daft questions about our prospective pup!!

1. We are planning on using a crate for toilet training the puppy - how do we go about doing this and what size cage would we need to buy to start with? Would it be better to get a smaller cage to start with to help the puppy feel secure or would it not really matter?

2. How do we go about choosing an obedience trainer? Is there an organisation that does better with gundogs or are they much of a muchness?

3. We are interested in working the dog as a gundog. How do we go about this? Should the obedience training be tailored towards a future as a gundog or would it need to be general training?

If anyone can offer any advice we would be very greatful, also if there are any toller owners out there we'd love to hear from you.

Thanks

Buggleywoo

Personally I wouldn't use a cage for any of my dogs, so I will let someone else answer that one

As far as training goes, have you contacted the breed club to find out if they offer any gundog training classes ? I think that they might, so give them a call and have a chat. If you need club details just ask. Does your breeder work their dogs ? If he does, then he would be the best person to help.

Good luck with your puppy!

Leigh

I borrowed a crate for my puppy , but didn't use it as she is so good. People say you should buy the size you'll need when they're fully grown and partiton some of it off, so puppy feels secure.
I wonder if someone can help me with a query?
I have a 4 and a half month old lab puppy. She is from a working strain and several of her siblings have gone to working homes. She's a super bright little dog and I'd really love to do something with her like agility or field trials. However I'm a dyed in the wool veggie and couldn't enjoy a day out with dead and injured birds. I've never had a dog before so I don't know what sort of activities are around. I'd be very grateful for any help.
Thanks
Jane

Jane, you could still do gundog training and even gundog working tests with her Most of the time they use canvas dummies rather than *Game*. Have a word with John, I am sure that he will point you in the right direction. Its really good fun and your dog will love it.

Leigh

Thanks alot Leigh
How do I speak to John?

Don't worry, John will find you here later on Leigh

Hi Thistle, as Leigh say, I tend to lurk here in the evenings.

Every dog needs something to stretch its brain and with a gundog what better than gundog work? Although a large percentage train in order to use their dog to pick up on a shoot quite a few people are happy to stick to just canvas dummies.
Retriever Field Trials are the competitive side of picking up on a shoot, with birds which are shot exactly as on a normal shooting day. Gundog working tests on the other hand are for the most part, a test using normal canvas dummies. Field Trials are held during the shooting season where as Working tests are a summer competition. Occasionally birds are used in a working test but these are dead birds which have been kept frozen from the previous shooting season. These tests are known as a "Cold Game" Working Test so you would know in advance that birds are going to be used. I would say that no one should even consider entering a Field trial without plenty of experience picking up on a shoot. Working Tests on the other hand cater for all levels of experience. My own branch of the United Retriever Club, as do quite a few others, holds a “Training Test” during the summer which is run exactly as a normal working test but advice is given by the judges so you have a chance to see your short comings and possible ways you could improve your performance. A great Fun Day out with nothing at stake!
One thing I will say is that no end of people start with the idea of just working with dummies but it is just a little addictive and we soon hear, "I'd love to see my dog doing the real thing just once." A friend of mine was just such a person, she is now the secretary of a local training society and is out most weekends in the season picking up with her 2 dogs!
Lower down I say you were enquiring about one to one training. This is always hard to find and the thing to do is to start at a good, reasonably local training society and take it from there. Often one of the senior members takes small groups one evening a week or so during the light nights and this is the kind of thing you get to hear about at training groups. Some of the top handlers run weekend courses from time to time but these have more value once you have learned the basics.

Regards, John

Hi there. I am a veggie (8 years now) and work my HPR's with birds of Prey.I can take the fact that the bird takes the quarry as it would do in the wild. I dont shoot as I obviously do not want the game!. Over the years I have become more comfortable with our sport and I feel I must use the dogs for what they were bred for . I have EVEN got used to having cold game in the freezer although I had to buy a seperate freezer for the dogs stuff!
Do whatever you feel comfortable with
Good Luck
Diane

IVE NEVER USED A CRATE AS SUCH BUT I THINK YOUR MEANT TO GET ONE THATS JUST BIG ENOUGH FOR THEM TO LAY DOWN IN AND NO BIGGER.THE WHOLE POINT IN THIS IS IT'S SUPPOSED TO TRAIN THE PUP TO HOLD IT'S ABLOUTIONS IN AS THE ONLY AVAILABLE SPACE IS BED SPACE AND THEY ARE NOT MEANT TO DO THEIR BUISSNESS IN THEIR BEDS.A CRATE A NOT MEANT TO HOLD A PUP FOR A LONG TIME, AND U ARE MEANT TO TAKE IT OUTSIDE FOR RELIEVING ITSELF AT HOURLY INTERVALS AT LEAST AT FIRST,THEN INCREASING THE TIME SPAN AS THEY GET OLDER HOPE THID HELPS

OOPS IVE JUST REALISED I LEFT MY CAPS LOCK ON

I have owned a gundog breed for over twenty years and cant undestand this trend for crates /cages what would the logic be as regards toilet training ? I would advise you to buy a decent book on your chosen breed preferably written by a mature person with some good old fashioned ideas on training because I think these days everything seems to be done for a quick fix method rather than a slowly patient outlook I look on training a puppy as bringing up a child patience and understanding usually pays off. Wishing you Lots of happiness with your new arrival.

HI Mattie

An excellent little book is the one by Joyce Stranger, called I think "HOw to have a Sensible Dog".

I have read it and is of course written by a mature person with the *good* olde fashioned ideas (not the bad ones!!!).

The book is available from Crosskeys.

The crates utilized as part of a training regime has been on-going in the US for the past twenty-plus odd years. It may be new to the UK, but is certainly not a 'trend'. Utilized correctly, it can help facilitate housebreaking. The key here is 'help' and not replace. Think of it as a playpen. We wouldn't leave young babies to crawl about the floor when we had to leave the room and it isn't always easy to tote that infant with you. So you want a safe, secure place where the puppy/baby cannot get into trouble. In the puppy's case, it could be anything from chewing on the carpet or wallpaper or furniture to upsetting and eating the plants, scratching or clawing at walls, etc.

The crate also acts as a den -- a safe place for the puppy to retreat where no one bothers him. And as den creatures, the puppy will be inclined to keep his area clean. As soon as the puppy comes out of his 'den', he should be taken outside immediately and praised for appropriate behavior.

As most of you know, Kai is almost ten weeks old and we have gone an entire week now without an accident in the house. He is very very seldom crated -- unless Jon and I are both going to the store and we try hard to keep our trips to under two hours. He's learned though that the crate is a good place and that when we come home he will go outside.

Years and years ago, I was teaching one of my classes and we were talking about crates and the myths and truths about them. One woman was absolutely horrified and indignant that we would put our dogs in 'prison' while we went to the store, mowed the lawn, etc. She had a young Chesapeake Bay Retriever who was quite naughty and typical of those that I know was very oral in nature (chewing everything in sight). The woman had already replaced a set of drapes and patched her wallpaper. Typical of my normal attitude, I simply smiled at her and said 'well, we all have to decide what works best for our lifestyles.' Imagine my surprise two weeks later when she asked to talk to me after class, sheepishly hanging her head. I had no idea what was going on but had to fight hard not to smile when she asked 'where can I buy one of those cage-things?' Asking her if she meant a crate, she replied 'yes' and went on to explain that she had come in from the store and found that the dog (under a year old) had eaten the middle out of the dining room rug. I raised my eyebrows when she explained that her husband had said that it was either put the dog someplace when they were not home where it wouldn't destroy another $3,000 Persian rug or he'd get rid of the dog. Needless to say she was off to buy a crate with the normal advice to never leave the collar on the dog while he was in the crate and to use nylabones or kongs in the crate which the dog could not try to swallow.

Crates -- a bad or lazy trend? I don't think so.... as long as they are used in conjunction with other training methods and not just as a storage place for a dog.

By the way, if you haven't read the Monks of New Skete's books, they are excellent for puppies.

Yes I am not surprised it was used widely in America but that doesnt make it a good TREND, as I have seen on many occasions the negative side to crates/cages one poor choc lab was caged almost all his short life till we managed to rescue him with great difficulty I might add because his owners had been sold a cage with the puppy,Cages have there places and uses but I think in the hands of a lazy person they are dangerous, and shouldnt take the place of teaching housetraining,and as for chewing yes dogs chew my Labs have been slightly destructive over the years and I have lost the odd shoes etc... but nothing major and how do they learn its wrong if you cant tell them when they pick up an object No!! and then replace it with a toy etc.. stick them in a cage Not likely Ill stay with my well adjusted dogs thank you !

My wifes parents used a large nursery fireguard bolted to the wall when they had a Cocker puppy about 13yrs ago. The pup was put in there at night and whenever the family was out during the day. She was very happy in there as she had her basket and plenty of room for her toys. It worked for them because the downstairs of their house was openplan so there wasn't anywhere to keep the pup safe and contained at night.

We haven't really decided whether to use a cage for our pup or not, but it is really great to be able to hear both sides of the argument.

MATTIE - Is obedience training for a gundog any different to a "normal" breed? We have never had a gundog before and we would like to do things properly.

John is the best person to advise you about training but I would think any gundog could do obedience,as thier instinct is to please.I tend to show my dogs but used to try do obedience with My Gsd lot of years ago the trainer said one night ' Madam it is you that needs training not the dog'! I gave up after that.Stick to what you do best thats my phylosophy.(not sure about spelling either LOL)

Hi Buggleywoo.
Obedience is obedience and is great for giving your dog something to think about apart from eating the furniture! As to obedience for gundog work, basically it’s the same thing except I put more weight on certain exercises. For example, although I teach the down stay I put far more work into the sit stay! If you think about it a dog lying down is not in a good position to mark the fall of a bird. Again, although I teach the recall I don’t need an obedience style recall but I do need a reliable retrieve. It’s just putting the emphasis on the parts you are going to need!

Regards, John

And why am I not surprised by your veiled insinuation that American ideas and uses of training equipment is sinister and not in the best interests of the dog? You know, I've watched, read and listened to various training METHODS (I won't call them TRENDS since that implies to most people that it is a short-lived or 'flavor-of-the-day' idea) used by others here in England and have tried to do it with a very open mind, believing that even in methods that I find strange or abhorrent there might be something of use that I can come away with.

Are crates dangerous in the hands of a lazy person? Of course. Does that negate the good uses of crates? Absolutely not -- it just means that an idiot would have found an inappropriate means of 'training' regardless. That same idiot may have shoved the puppy's nose in their feces or urine or may have shaken it and thrown (and I do mean thrown) it outside to land on its back or twist a leg. That same LAZY person may have decided that beating the puppy with a newspaper would teach it to go outside. Or how about beating it with the shoe that it was eating?

For years I have held the belief that training collars should only be sold by training schools to people who have first been taught the correct way to put them on the dog and the appropriate manner in which they are an effective tool when used. Yes, I actually said that I believe that the collar that most English refer to as 'choke chains' can be a TRAINING tool in the hands of a person capable of training and learning the appropriate use. Can it be a tool of torture and pain in the hands of an idiot? Of course.

It might also interest you that we were using motivational training in conjuction with training collar methods in the US even back when I trained my first GSP in the 70's. Even back then the harsh method associated with German training (sorry I cannot remember the name which began with a 'K') that had been the standard up to that time was being discounted and improved upon.

As for your implication that Kai or Bri are not well-adjusted because they have been subjected to one of many training methods that I use, I can only state that I'll put my well-adjusted, socialized, bold dogs up against any others.

As for your example that crates are evil because you had to rescue one poor choc lab that was caged almost all his short life, I can counter it with many other examples of GSP rescue. How about the dog who was allowed to roam freely on the property because the owner believed that dogs should not be housed inside or kept safe and ended up almost freezing to death because the owner also believed that dogs would find their own shelter -- just like they do in the wild? Using that analogy, I could also state that all people who use dogs to work their farms are evil and lazy. Sorry, but I just don't buy that -- I believe that there are farmers who take every good care of their animals, including dogs.

You've clearly missed the entire gist of the reply which was that crates DO have a purpose, specifically when one cannot be in the immediate area at all times. Geeeeeee, I guess you telepathically tell your Labs 'NO!!' when they start chewing the couch and you're at the grocery store. I look forward to learning that technique, until then I'll stay with the crate until they are trustworthy enough to roam the house freely (which by the way, Mara and Bri have been doing since they outgrew and were trained out of the destructive stage). Kai, by the way, just pulled one of my magazines from the magazine rack and started to run out the door with it. Being a 'lazy' trainer, I should just put up his crate (yep, it stays folded unless we are going out or I'm going to be unable to give him my attention for an extended period of time) and toss him in it, right? Again, wrong. I simply told him 'Kai, no.' and he dropped the magazine and ran back to me.

Let me restate empathically that all training tools, however benign they may appear, can be used inappropriately in the hands of people who are either too lazy or unable to learn the correct means of utilizing such tools.

'Nuff said -- I am after all just an American trying to exist.

Sierra, Calm down dear this is an airing of opinion only people ask for help here and its not one poor lab Ive dealt with a bad experience but many there wouldnt be space on here to list all, you really should chill out,you have my email add if you wish to carry on this discussion , And for the record I love America and I have very good freinds there, for years, But some people only appear to take their own opinions to heart dont forget this original posting above (person )asked for advice and I offered advice in the negative about cages Based Just my own humble experience only.Im sure your vast (positive)experience has been taken in as well.

Trust me, I am calm....lol, even taking my meds like a good person. I pointed out very succinctly how you came across in your posting. I do believe that you are still missing the point wherein I stated that a crate, like any other piece of equipment, is a useful addition to a training repertoire and in no means was a substitute.

My response entailed not only my own particular opinion regarding the pros and cons of crates, but also what the tone of your statement made me believe your opinion of American training techniques are. The question is not whether you like America or even whether you have friends there. I happen to like England and have English friends also. However, please consider how you would feel if I made a statement such as 'why am I not surprised that in England (insert whatever I might find distasteful here) is an acceptable TREND'. For the record, I don't much appreciate children being led about on leashes....but hey it works for the English, so oh well.

P.S. You, too, have my email if you wish to continue this.

HI mattie

You certainly have a point, and so much depends on what the onwer is like. I was recently iinvolved with a rescue BSd who was crated all day whilst his onwers were at work, thak God the male owner offered him to rescue as he felt guilty.

I am not happy about crates just being given out willy nilly without lots and lots of advice, but I think they do have a place. Never as a substitute for watchfulness though, and never to imprison the poor dog.

Trouble is Lyndsay that cages are now being offered willy nilly as a training tool 'what do we need oh yes lead ,Bowl,toys and cage' and it was the last thing anyone would buy at one time in desperation when all else failed,Not to bang on about rescue but we have had some really traumatised dogs here for varous reasons but recently through being caged till they are stir crazy,the choc I mentioned grew too big for the cage he couldnt even turn round in it and now he is a wreck,and being lovingly cared for now,theres no substitute for patience and understanding,but I know some dogs simply do not get the message then maybe try a cage but I would say as a last resort not as a matter of course

If we don't use a crate for ASSISTING in the toilet training of our pup, are there any good books out there that will show us the old-fashioned way of doing it. This will be the first dog that my wife and I will have had from a puppy, although between us we have lived with numerous dogs when we were growing up.

It is very refreshing to find a group of people who are pro gundogs and working dogs. Since we have decided on our breed a lot of our friends/family have questioned our desire to work her. They just don't seem to understand that a Toller is a specialised breed and not to work her in any way would be a waste of her talents.

We really do appreciate ALL of the advice and opinions that we have been offered. We are spending a lot of money on this puppy and we are looking on her as an investment for our family. We know that the money is not at all important but we don't want to ruin a very expensive purchase through ignorance and misguided good intention.

JO - Thank you for the email, I've now got some very interesting bed time reading!! If my wife can get to Windsor she'd love to come along with our girl (when she's old enough).

There was a Toller working in the Isle of Wight working test this autumn - nice to see a different breed. However, I did overhear a few comments to the tune of 'I knew some of the Labs had short legs, but never seen a golden like that'!!!!

Where do you live - we can surely find you a good trainer or group close to you. I can also e-mail you my handout on crate training if I have your address. I always use a crate in the early stages, but never as a prison, more as a play-pen for an infant when I can't concentrate on them the whole time.

Just out of interest, (following on from Jane, but not a dig, honest) what do vegetarians feed their dogs?

Jo and the Casblaidd Flatcoats

Hi Jo,

My email address is buggleywoo@hotmail.com We live in Reading, Berkshire and would be very greatful for any info/help you can offer.

Thanks

Chris

Hello! I haven't seen Novia Scotia Duck Tollers since leaving the States and showing in Canada. I don't live all that far from you (Wokingham) and would love to see the puppy when you get it.

That's a date Sierra! - we'll sort it out closer to the time, we're anticipating getting the puppy some time in March.

Jo
Not taken as a dig, and very interesting question which has been discussed at great length on the intelligent horsemanship website (If you want the address give me a shout). I feed my puppy a 'normal' puppy diet ie dried complete puppy food (containing meat). I'm not 100% happy about it but I'm new to dog owning and want to explore all the angles B4 I put her on a veggie diet. It is possible to feed dogs on a meat free diet, so long as you give them animal fats and protein (I mean dairy products). My family say it's cruel and unnatural to deprive a dog of meat, but if we start going down the 'what's natural?' route it opens a whole can of worms. Incidently you can't keep cats on a meat free diet they need Taurine which is only found in meat.
Any comments welcomed.
Jane

I'm a non-meat eater too, and I ended up feeding my guys original Chappie because it conitained a lot of fish and therefore a bit less meat <g>.
It's a difficult question though and one I have often turned over in my mind.

Lindsay

What does a toller look like I've never heard of one B4. And what's an HPR- you can tell I've only recently got 'into' dogs.
Jane

Some nice pictures of UK Tollers.

This is the breeder that we are using - aren't the dogs gorgeous!!

HPR = Hunt, Point,Retriever (all purpose gundogs) eg: German Shorthaired Pointer, Spinone,Weimaraner,Bracco etc.

Thanks Sierra and Leigh- I looked at the pictures of the Tollers. Nice dogs
Jane

I live in Dorset and my frined Sally has just had a litter of 8 little Tollers, 4 boys and 4 girls. She has done some gun work i think with her bitch Skye and says they have a very laid back attitude when round the house.

I will be going to see the puppies sometime, lucky me!!!!!!

You'll have to have a cuddle for us Lindsay!!

Hopefully Spanish Water Dogs too at some point!!

Yes, I did hear that SWD were pushing for inclusion Good Luck !! Do you know what group the FCI classification is for your breed? My husband did investigate a SWD at one point to work. Leigh

Totally off topic but I can't resist asking - Chris - how did you come up with the name bugglywoo?

Christine

That's what our youngest daughter gets called!! Our eldest daughter gets called Pickle and our son gets called Thuglet!! They do have proper normal names as well, these are just "pet" names. Mind you we had to stop calling the baby Buggleywoo and use her proper name because she didn't respond to her name only Buggleywoo!!

It's also my wifes eBay name and she has a company selling baby clothes that's called Buggleywoo.

It really is quite a daft name but the wife likes it!!!!!

Chris

There is a gundog website called ukgundogs.net where you might find some more information
LJD

Thanks for the link - I've had a quick look and it seems great, I'll look properly later.

Chris

I think house training comes as naturally as potty training kids does! You see to them after food-take puppy outside and wait until performance where you praise like mad-you take them out when they look as if they are circling or 'looking for something' and praise each performance. As if by magic they start to realise that 'outside' is the place for it, although accidents can happen up to 6 mths or more. Don't stress, ignore it if its done indoors, have the mop ready at all times! They will get there. A crate is a wonderful thing as a bed, cave, playroom, and somewhere to safely put puppy where he can't chew through electric cables etc while you are out. They are misused by people, unfourtunatly, I think when you sell a puppy this subject should be given a good airing with all the pros and cons explained in great detail. As to a leash on a toddler (human child this time!) I consider them to be absolutly essential! And to be used at all times when out. It only takes a second for a toddler to be snatched, or to run off, perhaps under the wheels of a car.
Would a crate make a good playpen? Only if the parent stayed in the same room................