I have a chocolate lab bitch Chloe, and I am hoping to breed from her next season. Question is.....to guarantee chocolate pups, do I definately have to let her mate with a chocolate dog or can she go with a black one? Chloes mum & dad(Rooklane Harbour Dues) were choc as were all 4 grandparents.

Welcome to the forum Smithy

Have you contacted your bitches breeder for advice? She will be able to help you choose the best lines for your bitch and maybe even recommend a stud dog that would compliment her. Have you also had the usual health checks done eg: Hips and eye's?

Leigh

I can only say what I would do myself. After having all the health checks (hips and eyes and possibly elbows ), I would do as much homework as possible on the parents and grandparents. Colour would not be me prioirirty in choosing a mate; Temperament and soundness would. The colour chocolate had become a popular 'selling' colour for commercial breeders, which none of us wish to think of ourselves as.

Mating chocolate to chovolate can lead to a loss of pigmentation both in the eyes and the coat - ie - you are inclined to get light coloured eyes and wishy-washy coat colour, not that gorgeous deep chocolate colour.

Personally, I would research a sound, good tempered, black dog that I knew carried the chocolate gene; you won't get all choc pups, but so what?

Jo and the Casblaidd Flatcoats '

Hi,
I saw your message further down under a "guest heading", as your bitch has chocolate parents I would as Jo says find a black lab that carries chocolate. If you use another chocolate lab as the stud dog you will probably find the coat and pigmentation are not as dark as possible which is correct for the breed.
I think your breeder should be able to advise you what is best. If you don't wish to ask your breeder then perhaps Mattie on champdogs may be able to help as she has labs. Another thing to think about, is why are you wanting the litter? Have you any guaranteed homes for resulting pups? Do make sure that the sire you use is sound, has gone under the British Veterinary Association health schemes for eyes, hips and elbows, do ask to see the certificates. Take your bitches test certificates along to show the stud dog owner. Make sure the dog you use for mating to your bitch is good tempered with people, children and other dogs.
Good Luck let us know how you get on.

If you visit www.pedigreedogs.co.uk and go to Labrador Breed notes,the writer is Julia Lewis a breeder and exhibitor of Chocolate labs if you contact her she will Im sure give you any advice you need

Thankyou for all the advice, Chloe is just at the end of her first season so we will get her hip and eye scored soon after Christmas in preperation for her next season, and finding her a mate.
There is allready one possible chap who sounds lovely.....Mind you the importance of guaranteed chocolate pups is fading, we would just like healthy ones.
In response to Pollys message about our reasons for letting Chloe have the litter, they are quite clear, Chloe is the most loving, gentle, and beautiful dog you could ever wish to meet and we would simply love another (maybe a couple!) to keep Chloe and us company.
We considered getting her speyed and just looking around for another pup, but after alot of thought, we decided to let her have a litter of her own.
We are not breeders and admit to knowing nothing about whats involved, but thanx for all the advice and guidance, it has been much appreciated.
Big thanx to Nicolla at devonlitelabs, we have saved your details and will contact you again soon.
Helen, Mark & Chloe

If your bitch has just had her first season then in my opinion she is too young to be mated next time as she will still be very much a baby. Best wait til her first season after her second birthday. Slightly older bitches seem to make better mothers in my experience.

Hi,
I am glad to see you have put a lot of thought into the mating of your bitch and are planning well in advance. I have a stud dog and you would be surprised at some of the enquiries I get! I have had people ring up and ask can I bring my bitch to be mated today? This might even be the first time I have heard from them! So I have no knowledge of the breeding, whether hips and eyes are done and even more worrying is why do they want to breed pups? i.e. for financial gain? A good stud dog owner will want to meet you and see the bitch prior to agreeing to a mating. Plus they will want to see the breeding lines of your bitch and her BVA test certificates. My questions which I posed in the earlier email were not intended to question you personally, they were just the things I usually ask anyone wanting to use my stud dog. They are the questions which I would consider myself before mating a bitch. Good luck with your bitch and any puppies you have, let us know how you get on.

Having just read that this is your bitches first season, I would say you are thinking of breeding way to soon. I have a breed that is smaller than a Lab and our breed Club has a code of ethics that prohibits bitches under two having a litter. In practice most bitches are bred from nearer to three years of age. I would imagine that a Labrador would be nowhere near fully mature at her second season. If you really want to breed early then I would say wait until the first season after her second birthday. I have only ever mated one bitch what I would consider young, she was mated 2 weeks before her 2nd birthday, the reason being that she had always been a very poor eater, and in my experience bitches get much more food orientated after a litter. This was in fact the case, though now at two years later she still can be picky at times, but for the first 6 or 9 months after the litter she ate beautifully! So guess what I am waiting for her to come in season to breed from her again now that she is four. It is not the only reason of course

HI, I would definately wait until her third season and as advised either use a black dog known to carry chocolate, which has NO yellow, going back in the pedigree, for at least 3 generations and preferably none in a 5 generation pedigree. Or a chocolate dog, with 2 chocolate parents and 2 out of the 4 grandparents being black (carrying chocolate). If you use a black carrying choc, you can then breed her chocolate daughter to a chocolate, hopefuly retaining good eye , coat and nose colour because you "have some black in there". I would use a black carrying chocolate, with no yellow in the past, about every other generation in a breeding plan.

I am probably going to set the cat among the pigeons here, but when I started in Westies, many years ago, when "political correctness" had never been heard of, I was advised by three top breeders and exhibitors who are also breed judges who give CC's and also judge internationally that a Westie bitch should be bred at her second season as long as she was "forward" and no less than 14 months old when in season. The reasoning behind this is at this age was that the bones, in particular the pelvic girdle, was still pliable and the bitch would whelp easily, and would whelp any subsequent litters more easily in the future, if she was bred young for the first litter. Of course after that first litter she would have a year or 18 months "off". Believing this to be OK, as I was a newcomer and these people were "at the top" I did as advised with 3 bitches over the following 18 months. They all whelped good sized litters easily, with no losses, without assistance, I just sat and watched. They barely lost condition, any that was lost was regained very quickly, and they did the pups very well. In the litters that those 3 bitches had (2 -4 litters each), none of them ever needed any help at whelping. Lately the breed clubs and the KC have intervened, for the greater good, and since , when I have mated bitches for the first time at around 2 years old I have had nothing but trouble - C sections, oxytocin, small litters and "misses". If they miss, after a break of 12 months then it really
can compromise their reproductive ability - to have no puppies for more than 2 years. I dont think it is a co-incidence that I have to have much more "interference" at whelping these days.
I know that these are Westies, and not Labs and agree that a lab should not be bred at the second season unless, she starts very late and has a second season at 20 months+, but in my experience, to wait with some smaller breeds is a mistake if you want a bitch who self whelps. In trying to solve one problem - abuse of bitches- the recommendations that are in fashion today are not IMHO in the interests of the bitches safety and well being at whelping So who is right, those that want to see a bitch fully mature before she whelps, and have perhaps have difficulties or to breed say one season earlier than commonly recommend, to give the bitch an easier time. Its not a matter of greed, or wanting to have more litters out of a bitch, but to make it easier and less traumatic for her. It is a very traumatic experience for both bitch and owner to take a distressed bitch to the vets in labour in the middle of the night, in the middle of winter, for jabs/ops that could maybe have been avoided. I know I am going to get some flack for this, but I would welcome any input from those that can stay civil about it. Just another thought, I wish posters wouldn't jump down on people who say they are going to breed, assuming that they haven't done hereditary testing, arranged for good homes and have the correct facilities, time, etc - when they have, but just haven't said so. We all had to start somewhere and many, many well known exhibitors/trainers, (including I am sure many of the regular posters on this site, in ALL breeds started with a mediocre bitch as a pet and then "got the bug", and went on to become pinnacles of the breed or discipline. I think we should be a little kinder in the first instance and not assume that everyone who wants to start breeding is going to ruin the bitch, ruin the breed and supply the pet shops etc.

I would have thought with the small breeds that your original age would have been corect, as they mature faster. i whelped a bitch for a friend who was 4 (first litter) and she needed a C section, as did my own bitch after a long interval betweeen litters, of 2 years 9 months, even though she had had two litters with no mtrouble when aged 3 and 4.

I've always maintained that there is so much difference in the breeds that for example, what suits a Yorky is not necessarily going to suit a Great Dane! I know I’ve been shot for saying it in the past but I still maintain I'm right. The KC set up blanket rules and I’m afraid fail miserably! Of course, those rules were set with the best of intention but as they stand are not always in the best interest of the dog.

John

Now Im a little worried, Chloes mother was in her second season, when she went to stud and when we collected Chloe at 7 weeks old her mother was 18 months old, Chloe is 11months & one week old now and if her next season is due in 6-7months she would be around the same age as her mother was when she gave birth.
In no way do I want to hurt my dog or leave her damaged by the experience, so I feel a lot more research needs to be done before we make any decisions, but I understand from the replys that we should wait.....so I think that is what we shall do, for Chloes sake more than anything.
So with my calculations that are probably way out I am looking at letting her go to stud during her third season, about this time next year!!!

Can I just make a comment that this memo board has been of great use to me, as mentioned in a previous memo I am not a breeder and admit to knowing hardly anything about the process, but I am doing alot of research to understand it all believe me. I am just a very contented dog owner who would like a few more...is that such a bad thing.

The fact that you are asking questions, and trying to find out how to do things properly, is the right way to go about it. It may sometimes seem from some posters (myself included) that we are against anyone breeding. The truth is that people need to realise what all the implications and responsibilites you have to the dog, its breed, and the potential puppy buyer. Sad;y there are many people who just breed without thinking what will happen to the lives produced, and worse not caring!

In the time you are waiting, why not attend some shows where you may study the breed (choose a potential hyusband for chloe), or if you are interested in the working side attend some Gundog training days. A good start would be to join your local Labrador Club, you will then receive yearbooks, and details of events of interest. You could get really hooked . that is how we all started, we weren't born this way, honest

Actually, I think I was born this way!! There's got to be a reason for the madness somewhere!

jo and the Casblaidd Flatcoats

Hi Smithy, I bred my first ever litter this year. I had planned it from when we got our lab bitch at 8 weeks old. Once I had her hips and eyes done I knew I could go ahead, but there was lots more to it. Choosing a suitable stud was, of course, very important. Making sure there were prospective new owners who would be responsible and love their dogs as much as I do. Of course you can't guarantee this. I had planned on her 3rd season, but then I got absolutely hooked on the working side, and decided to carry on with that before breeding her. Can I just mention that for me, the time of year was also important. My puppies arrived on June 1st. I found this ideal, it was warm, and light and as my day seemed to start at about 5am with the puppies calling (thats an understatement) the climate made a difference. Of course, you can't help when your dog comes into season, but if I did it again (hopefully sometime) I would try to plan a spring or summer litter. The thought of scrubbing out a kennel and run in this cold weather makes me shiver! There are lots of useful books to read - has anyone advised Book of the Bitch? Also having this website was really useful. The owner of my chosen stud dog was invaluable too, having been a breeder for years she had lots of good advice, and was very willing to be phoned and asked lots of questions. Good luck with all your planning, believe me, it's worth the wait.
Lorna