Hi I wonder if anyone can help or is interested, we have a handsome 6 year old black lab who is an excellent example of the breed, although we have never been interested in showing. He has a great pedigree, with both showing and working champions in his heritage. He also has perhaps the best temperament I have ever experienced in a dog. We would like to find a nice bitch to match him with, so we can have at least one puppy to carry on his line. I have spoken to his breeder and she tells us she would expect him to produce excellent puppies. He carries Chocolate, Yellow and Black, so it would be quite interesting to see what he produced. If anyone is interested in trying this match, we would love to hear from you.

Unless your breeder has someone in mind, i really doubt you will be able to find someone who wants to use him who has the right motives for breeding. You don't say if he has been Hip Scored and eye tested, I also think that Labradors are recommended to have their elbows screened.

If you are still keen to proceed, i would join your local Labrador breed club, read and learn all you can about the different lines, as you will need to know whether a potential mate will be suitable, in type, temperament and health.

Also 6 is a bit old for someone to be wanting to use a 'maiden dog'. Why not have a puppy from one of his relatives owned by your breeder, or the owner of his sire?

Welcome to the forum Lucycaz Leigh

I wonder How the breeder know he carries three colours has he been used before? if not she wouldnt possibly know,I would think that six is rather old to start using him for a mating,if you would like the same breeding maybe his breeder has or knows where some of his lines decendants are.
Sometimes using a dog at stud can be a real pain if he is a house dog My William is eleven now and was only used a few times in his younger days but used to go off his food when bitches were in season and make himself ill.

Hi, Perhaps his breeder might like to use him on one of her bitches, then you could have first or more probably second pick of the litter and she could have the others to sell.

I'm no expert on Lab colour inheritance when yellow is involved, but if the breeder knew both of his parents carried all three colours, is that a good enough reason to assume/know that he would?

Wow, thanks for the input folks, it's helpful to get other people's insights on a thing like this! Although I have known him since he was a puppy, we have only just assumed ownership of him (he was my mum's dog, but she can no longer cope with him, due to arthritis and a change of circumstances), and I would love to get a puppy from him, as he is such a superbly tempered boy! Maybe we are being optimistic offering him to stud, as he is unproven, but perhaps there may be someone in a similar position to us who has a bitch they want to have a litter from? Worth a try!

Well you will need to get those Health Tests depending on where you are you will expect to pay possibly £150 for Hip Scoring, if y6ou have the Elbows checked at the same time probably another £60 for those xray plates, and around $25 for Eye testing. Eye testing has to be done no more than a 12 month before mating, so Stud dogs are usually done annually and bitvhes in the year they are bred from.

After this you may still find no-one who wants to use him for the right reasons. You will both be responsible for any puppies produced and will need to be prepared to offer help to the new owners when they need it, and possibly take back for rehoming any that don't work out.

I would imagine it would be a better bet to buy a puppy from his breeder, from perhaps a closely related (sister, brother half sibling) of your dog.

I do actually appreciate all that everyone is saying on the face of it, by the way.
I have a GSD bitch, 7 months which I hope to mate. I have given myself from now until her third season to look around for a suitable stud...it is time consuming though, more so than puppy purchase in some ways as there is a lot more riding on it. I took over 12 months to select and view GSDs from several kennels before making the final choice and then making more than one visit to see my chosen litter.....I am taking the same tack with a search for a sire and I have arranged to see one breeder early next year...this means travelling to Cornwall from the Midlands...quite a haul !

If you are keen and the dog is healthy and you can help be responsible for resulting pups, then go ahead and use hima t stud - you might find someone in gundog circles who may be interested or even an enthusiastic pet owner - yes they can be responsible and breed for the right reason s too !

Indeed, what are the right reasons? I don't always think that breeding a whole litter to keep one back for show and then having the rest of the litter to sell on and be responsible for, is any more " right " than a pet owner who wants a nice pet from a treasured dog already owned, thereby carrying on the line of what that owner considers to be an exempliary specimen of the breed.

And, I have said this before, about the fact that people seem to jump to far too many conclusions by insinuating anyone who asks about anything regarding breeding their dog, has anything but the right reasons and best interests of all concerned at heart. The very fact that people post questions on here shows they are thinking more than fleetingly about the prospect. It's a shame that many people are likley to be frightened off from the dog world by such attitudes - I think it's fair to point out the various hereditary problems applicable to the various breeds, ( just in case the poster was not aware - ), but not to try and completely put people off breeding alltogether - free world and all that - one rule for established dog breeders ( most of whom will have started with pet dogs ) - one rule for everyone else, it seems - I know there are many novices out there who will breed for wrong reasons, but there are people who have been in the game a long time who keep dogs in appalling conditions etc, I know - I went to see one last year - and was amazed - lovely gloosy web-site - breed club advisor and chairman etc, etc, but the conditions the dogs were living in were absolutely disgusting and she had a litter of 4 week old pups in amongst it....I still wonder whether this person should have been reported. This is all in my humble opinion, no offence etc, etc......but this is a discussion board...and that's just my opinion within this discussion ! So there's no need for anyone to be rude with me ! It's called reasoned arguing - it doesn't mean to say I am being rude with regard to anyone elses personal opinions.....so reasoned responses please !
Note: I have just checked and there is a link from this site for this breeder.

Just wondering why you did not report the breeder you speak of. JH

Well, it is a difficult one - see what you all think of the situation...I travelled 200 miles to see this breeder. This person is a trustee of a national breed helpline. his person has a glossy web-site ( which did have links from this site )..she conforms to breed screenings, her dogs are PAT dogs and such like, she is a trainer and she pertains to feed a natural diet and to have all the dogs living in the house.

When my friend and I arrived on the housing estate and pulled up outside the semi in question ( the worst looking one for streets ) we wondered where we had taken a wrong turning. The person in question we feel was trying to avoid us as the door was not opened for around 5 or 10 mins and we could see all around the house and garden ( it was tiny ). Eventually inside, we began to feel nauseaus after about an hour. There were approximately thirteen - fifteen large dogs, two huge dog crates where a 4 month puppy was secured. In another cage a ' rescue ' dog. In the middle a very old dog that appeared to require attention, with lacerations on it's face from fighting, was looking stressed by all the activity and sheer volume and close proximity of several other young dogs. Everything was filthy - the carpet was liek slime - the animals obvioulsy eliminated regularly indoors - 2 cats appeared to live and toilet on the landing. Outside scuffles were heard with dogs scrapping. We were led out through a back yard , ( full of excrement ), past several more dogs , one of which leapt up, grabbed my arm very tight ( I had a large bruise to prove it ) and ripped my coat. I have to say I was quite frightened by then as the breeder had no intention of taking control of the dog and as a trainer myself, the dog had obvioulsy been taught very crude man-work techniques, but it was not under any kind of control, neither was it of good temperament. So, onwards we went to a garage, which as it turned out, was the cleanest part ( relatively speaking ), inside were 4 week old puppies and bags of complete dog food - so much for the natural rearing....( the huge amounts of sloppy dog poo had already given this away )...the bitch was of good temprement and allowed us to handle the puppies. There were no questions asked of us as to why we wanted a puppy, where it was going, where it would live etc.

At first we came away trying to keep things in perspective. The dogs were well fed and seemed happy....but how on earth that many dogs in such a small space could be stimulated and trained to the degree this breed require, I cannot understand...quickly it dawned on us that we would never go back there again and screeched into the nearest service station, to clean excrement from our shoes and jackets !

It still is a difficult one - the RSPCA would not do anything...I would say it's more a case for environmental health and the for the council to intervene and demand she cuts down on the amount of dogs. I have an inkling that once she had the best interests of the dogs at heart, but soemwhere along the line things have slid rather badly....dogs don't care for aesthetics, so you have to keep level headed about that to a certain degree...but quite plainly her motives for breeding seemed at that time one of monetary gain...but then again, having said that - there was obvioulsy no money spent on herself or the property - none whatsoever, so one should assume the money was going back into the upkeep of her dogs - who, like I said were in the main, healthy looking and actually, close to the type of dog I favour in this breed.......

It's moral - what would you do? I'm actually not one for jumping in and causing loads of trouble without carefully considering everything ...... and I concluded that as the dogs that were there seemed healthy and they did appear to fond of their owner - there was no cowering etc and she petted and cooed at the dogs as if we weren't there - I wasn't so sure at the time that jumping in with two feet was entirely the right thing to do - despite my shock at the time....

what do you think then?

Edit ( put it on the wrong post to begin with - duh ! ) I have just checked and there is a link to this breeder from this site.

Norm you would be amazed at how many dog people live in those conditions and dont even notice it .Its like they have turned their whole house and garden be it big or small into a kennel. one time i had some business in a place such as this. Bursting at the seams to use the bathroom I was told it was upstairs so i went up the stairs carefully avoiding certain areas. On the landing were cages with dogs and when i opened the bathroom door i was met by a snarling bitch with a litter of pups in the bath well needless to say no toilet . all the things you described were there as well .another time when i went with a friend to buy a peke puppy,we were led into a kitchen (there was no garden ). the pups were in a cardboard box and there were bird cages down low on the wall with dogs in them we were told it keeps them from running out on the road and getting killed ..so that justified that .Icould go on . but like yourself said there was food. and cuddles ,and obvious love for the dogs I think mostly what happens here is they get bogged down,. with all their breeding bitches and dogs getting old, and then the whole situation gets out of hand and theres no turning back .Its across the board .England Ireland Scotland Wales its not right but it is rife . The I.S P C .A is no different to the R.S.P.C.A.Idont want to go down that road right now but im sure you know where im coming from on that score .mari

Well, yes I think you're right and I did get the impression that things had just got out of hand - she wasn't parting with older dogs and yet still taking on puppies....so in some ways seemed harsh to report her as she obvioulsy loved her dogs and her dogs loved her back....which is why I didn't. I suppose again, it's a case of each to his own...I have to admit I'm a stickler for cleanliness adn for me, it is VERY hard work with three dogs ( and 3 kids ! ) living in the house....I'm constantly wiping surfaces, walls, skirtings , mopping and hoovering ! This time of year it's a nightmare ! ..... so I find it hard to imagine how anyone could let things slide so badly - however, when you think this breeder could have sufferred other personla problems or situations you can see how it could have started, I suppose. It is a shame for humans and dogs alike.

Norm I hope it never happens to us . which is why if you are over a certain age. you should not bring in or breed, unless you have someone to take over for you in the event of illness or stroke or death .un pleasent as it may be to be thinking on those lines,its something has to be done .has anyone any thoughts on this .mari

But its not just those who are old.
The misconception is that people who do well at shows, have glossy web sites etc surely have their dogs in the best conditions. That is obviously not always the case. That is why others who may not be into showing but have excellent conditions feel agrieved when they are slated for wanting to breed by the aforementioned group.
Unfortunatly those of us, and I am guilty here, after visiting a well respected breeder who lives in a disgusting place with far from ideal conditions for both man and dog, will leave shocked and without a pup but also without pointing out what a mess the place is. Perhaps if a few such comments were made it may register that they need to clean up their act.
Of course I need to add that this doesn't apply to all well respected show/breeders otherwise I am bound to upset someone.
TB

well, precicesly why I think the original point was brought up by myself - that some novice people with lovely home conditions, who wish to rear a litter of puppies, feel agreived when so-called experienced and respected breeders raise dogs in such awful conditions as we described....but the lesson, I suppose, is that there are two sides to every story...for every pet dog person who breeds a pet litter with no regard for health checks, or continuing interest in resulting puppies, there is an ' experienced ' breeder producing puppies in revolting conditions, but pertaining to be ' responsible ' whilst probably breeding for monetary gain into the bargain....swings and roundabouts I suppose.......

I think it important to view your circumstances and accommodation realistically, and determine in advance how many dogs you can realistically keep. Living in a suburban area with a 60 foot garden, and 3 bed semi, i feel that i could only keep an absolute maximum of 6 dogs! with an aim to keep to four under 12 years old. I can happily wlk four of this size breed, and with the double kennel an kitchen for sleeping can sleep six. I have four at the moment aged from 2 years to nearly 10. I am not planning on keeping another puppy until the youngest one's second litter at age 5. that is in 3 years, so the oldest may or may not be still with us, but will certainly not be wanting to go for the long walks they all now get.

Some people critiscise breeders for retiring their show dogs into pet homes, at this time it is not something I could contermplate, but if they are keen to always have a new dog to show, it is far better that they retire their dogs to a loving pet home where they will be the only one or one of two, as opposed to being one of a large crowd. With the best will in the world these older dogs can get pushed out by the younger contingent, when actually a bit of peace and being centre stage is what they could have. the breeder can then continue with hopefully advancing the breed with a sound breeding program.

Norm, can I just say a 'reasoned' well said. I think your reply was great!

Fair comment - who can argue with that!

Rachel:)

where in the above postings has anyone 'jumped to' or tried to 'put off completely 'the poster,all I see is good sound advice based on peoples experience,and wether the poster takes it or not is entirely up to her. (in my humble opinion)

Leaving aside the above question for the moment, in my opinion ANY person involved in breeding be it a brood bitch or a stud dog has a duty to the breed to only produce the very best puppies that they can breed. Anything less is selling the breed short. And this holds true whether a person is breeding for show, work or as pets! ALL should have the very best temperament and the best conformation coupled to the best possible health! Obviously this is a dream which we should aspire to but which we at times unfortunately we fall short of. So how do we set about attempting this utopia? We learn as much about our chosen breed, we test for the health problems affecting that breed and we talk to the experts, (and as many experts as possible in order to get as rounded knowledge of the breed as possible) in the breed to try to find as much as possible about which lines go or don’t go with our own line. Anyone who is prepared to do that is doing the best they can. The problem is, how many pet people have the knowledge to know where to look for that knowledge or are prepared to put in the time to even seek that knowledge! When a friend of mine who also posts on this board was looking for a stud dog for her bitch we spent 2 years compiling a shortlist of stud dogs! And her knowledge of her chosen breed is possibly second to no one!

John

Couldn't have put it better myself John!
None of us know all the answers to everything, but some of us,as you say, are prepared to put more time in than others. 30 years ago, anyone who wanted a pedigree dog went to "a breeder" because they knew that they were experienced at breeding. Unfortunately, in these days of civil liberties, everyone thinks that they should be able to do just what ever they want and blow the consequencies. With rights come responsibilites. If anyone with one of my bitches shows an interest, I suggest what was required of me. To come along to the next whelping, however inconvenient, (nature rarely performs for our convenience!) and to come along once a week until the puppies are 8 weeks old and ready to go to their new homes. That way, the prospectives at least have an idea of what is involved. If they are prepared to do this, then I will help and support all I can. I also think that the puppies and their new owners are entitled to back up and support for the rest of the dogs life. How can someone with only the experience of one dog possibly provide this, let alone help to rehome a dog if the family runs into problems, as happens more and more these days?
So many people say that their dog "has a wonderful pedigree". A pedigree is only a collection of names UNLESS YOU KNOW THE DOGS INVOLVED. Of course there are exceptions to every rule, but to me a breeder is someone with knowledge and experience, not just someone who produces a litter of puppies.
I wonder how many ladies would be prepared to have a baby with the help, instead of a midwife, of a friend who has read a book, or has access to the internet?

well said val .I have to say in spite of how serious this whole issue is ,I had to smile at ,how many ladies ,would rather have a friend who read a book at the birth instead of a midwife .priceless .but what you are saying is true every last bit of it .mari

I couldn't agree more - but as predicted it seems everyone has got rather curt with Norms response ! - well except for one - I'm simply saying give everyone a chance, that's all, nothing less - - all the top breeders started somewhere and I'll say it again - some of those breeders meandered somewhere way off the plot !

I appreciate what you are all saying, but don't tar everybody with the same brush as a small minority of inconsiderates! As it happens, I DO know my dog's pedigree is good, as I did make the effort to go to the breeder and meet them! As I am sure we are all aware, dogs are not convenient, and we are prepared to put ourselves considerably out for our dog. The reason we posted on this board in the first place was to get ideas and responses from other people who love their dogs as much as we do!!! And, yes, I am researching everywhere I can think of to help myself (and my dog!!) make the right decisions.

SO THERE!! I feel better now, sorry if this came across as a bit of a rant....

ps I do have experience of more than 1 dog...!

...I rest my case.

Welcome Lucycaz to the Mad world of dogs!!!! Come on in the water though turbulent is warm

**chuckling** now that we've heard your final arguments, Norm, does that mean that the legal beagle gets to put forth a ruling? **winking at Leigh**

well ok ....so here was the person the healthy lab ( we are to assume - innocent until proven guilty ! ) with excellent temp. asking questions from experts. why should we assume that this is the ONLY anenue of research the poster has in mind. I think it is condescending to assume that - that's all !

excuse typos - trying to type and stop ash from dropping on keyboard - anyone any objections ! - { cheesy Grin }

No objections at all Norm, so long as you don't drop your ash in my glass of wine!

Exactly how I feel.

We all had to start somewhere. I bred my first litter just under 7 years ago, so am a novice.

Before I thought of breeding, I did as much research as I could, attending shows, talking to experienced breeders, reading books, studying my bitches pedigree, and then looking up pictures of the dogs therin. I then asked about the dogs in the pedigree whom my breeder and others had known, how long did they live, what kind of temperament did they have, what dogs that pleased me were by the same sire as my bitch. Which Stud dogs were siring the kind of puppies I wanted to produce?

When someone posts on the board with a bitch 4 days in season and is trying to locate a Stud dog, what preparation have they done, if they need to ask. They should have spent a year or two evaluating Stud dogs as regards the puppies they are producing, their health temperament, and abilities/looks, having compared the breeding of the Dams to their own bitch.

In some other European countries you cannot even register puppies from purebred parents unless the parents have done a certain amount of winning, or been assessed by a breed commision. When we breed puppies we have a responsibility to the new owners, who think that registration implies some level of Quality, whereas all it means is that the parents were registered and the parentage is known

All my puppies are sold with their registrations endorsed with "Progeny not elligible for registration". the owners are quite happy when the reasoning is explained, that it is to protect the integrity of the breed.

IF they choose to breed, I will lift the endorsment, provided they obtain satisfactory health screening results, and show that they have a serious interest in the breeds welfare, and will take responsibility for the puppies they produce.

If more people did this, then there wouldn't be so many litters registered by people who have no idea what they are doing, it wouldn't stop pups being born, but they would not have the perceived stamp of Quality that people perceive registration to be!

Those who post with nice dogs they would like used, do they really know the responsibilities involved, as it is all to easy to do, just pocket the fee, but they then have no idea, or control over what happens to the pups!

Breeders who are breeding with a view to produce the best puppies they can, be it with an emphasis on show conformation or Work (Temperament and Health go without saying), will not be looking to use a dog who has not proved himself against his peers in one of these spheres. they would also want a Stud whose health Status was known, with several generations of Hip Scored and Eye tested ancestors.

Correct me if I am wrong, but in a popular breed like Labradors there is no shortage of Pet Quality puppies, produced from the top lines, and from those who only breed to supply a market. they have a huge rescue problem, and I would hazard a guess that most of these are of parentage that has seen neither bench or field, in order to be assessed for their Quality.

HEALTH is vitally important, and many of these pup's parents, gransdparents etc have no health checks.

As I said in my post, Study the breed, have your dog evaluated against its peers, health checked, and be scrupulous as to who you allow to use your dog, then go ahead. But it takes time to gain the knowledge! I wouldn't want to be a Stud owner, I haven't the diplomacy needed to refuse those whose bitch would not suit my dog. In a popular breed like labs, how would a novice determine this?

Just doing our winter newsletter for labrador rescue (NW)and there are two rescues in the north west we have rehoused 207 this year up to now,there are many many rescues for Labs all over the country dont have the over all figure but it would be interesting to know.thankyou for pointing out the welfare problem Edit: must point out though I am a breeder ! over twenty years now granted on a small scale but till I became involved on a Breed club commitee and got involved in rescue i never thought about a problem with overbreeding,and now view breeding in a different light,to such a degree I will not allow use of my dogs now, However everyone starts somewhere and I wouldnt like this person to feel we are all jumping on her,I think we have all given advice in the nicest possible way and has been pointed out many times you cant tell a tone of voice from a posting, good luck in what you decide to do.

Thank you all for your sound advice, it is indeed a minefield, and a difficult decision to make! That is the value of boards such as this, getting access to other people who actually know what they are talking about! It has certainly made my eyes open that little bit wider:)

Keep up the good work!! And thanks to all who took the trouble to help out a befuddled "newcomer"!

Hi Lucycaz
I'm really heartened by your final reply. As you can see there is so much more to breeding healthy, well balanced dogs than just putting a dog and bitch together. In many cases the ancestors have as much if not more influence on the puppies than the sire and dam that you see before you. Please understand that the advice and comments given here are truly sincerely given, although I appreciate that without the benefit of vocal tone and body language it can come over somewhat curt. Those of us who spend time, money and emotion for our chosen breed have the dogs' not our own best interest at heart. I have no doubt that you love dogs. That is a great reason for sharing your life with them, but in itself not a good enough reason to breed IMHO! If labradors are your chosen breed, join a breed club/gundog club/training club. Go to show/working trials. Talk to and listen to experienced breeders and who knows Lucycaz, down the line, you could well join our passionate ranks and be proud of what you breed. I wish you the very best whatever your decision.