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Previous Next Up Topic Dog Boards / Breeding / Absorbing pups
By kia mummy (**) [gb] Date 16.01.04 18:05 GMT
I know there are several reasons a bitch will absorb pups and trauma is one of them.How big a trauma do you think it would have to be.My neighbours had her bitch mated In Dec and was pretty sure that she was pregnant as she was showing all the signs.A few days before she was due to have her scanned(4 weeks along) she was out walking on the beach and  the dog was loose.They happened upon a couple and the dog ran up to them.She was just being freindly and my neighbour did call her back  but what with it being windy and the noise if the waves crashing the dog didn't hear her .She jumped up to the strangers and the man kicked her away and carried on walking.She didn't yelp but ran up to them again,this time he punched her hard.My neighbour who has a heart problem made her way over as fast as she could and the bloke just glared at her and walked on muttering about irresponsible owners.My neighbour didn't think it was worth taking up with him as she was on her own and found him  very intimidating.
The dog didn't appear to be hurt in any way however my neighbour insists that her behaviour changed almost straight away.Needless to say when she did take her for the scan no puppies could be found although there was fluid in the womb.
Do you think this was enough for her to absorb??
Lorraine and the Gang
By corso girl [gb] Date 16.01.04 18:30 GMT
First let me say that i never take my females out when they are 4 weeks in whelp just because things like this can happen, if they do go out with me then it's in the truck and to the fields where no one else is.If you must take an in whelp bitch out dont let them off there lead, as for this girlie getting a kick and then punched my god the b*****d. i dont know if this could have made her absorb she might not have been in whelp?? some one else on hear might be able to help you more. :-)
By Cinajella Date 16.01.04 18:48 GMT
I don't think the trauma caused the pups to reabsorb...if this was the case you would have seen small pups with just no heartbeat since it was only 4 days. I doubt there was ever much of anything there to begin with.
And Im sure it takes a pretty serious trauma to injure the pups. They are designed to withstand a certain amount.
I hope this helps
Amanda
By LindyLou (***) [gb] Date 16.01.04 21:20 GMT
She may not have been pregnant at all. My bitch was mated last season, but no pups were born. It's just one of those things. My vet didn't think she had reabsorbed, or even miscarried, as he believes there would have been signs. I'm thinking of trying again, but will do blood tests to make sure she is ovulating at the right time. Like others though I wouldn't walk my bitch unless I was sure no harm would (or could) come to her. Luckily I walk my dogs where there are only 4 other dogs excercised and they all know one another well.
Life is not a bed of roses but a comedy of errors
By amyleigh Date 17.01.04 03:00 GMT
Has anybody ever heard of false pregnancy?
By Jeangenie (*****) [gb] Date 17.01.04 08:42 GMT
There are two conditions whose names are often confused. There is 'False Pregnancy' (which all entire bitches go through to a greater or lesser degree after each season) where an unmated bitch goes through all the symptoms of being pregnant, even producing milk; and 'Phantom pregnancy' where a mated bitch becomes pregnant but fails to produce puppies at term. This is because, for whatever reason, the whelps were resorbed. It was only really proved that there was a difference between the two conditions, and that resorption occurred, with the advent of ultrasound scanning.

Hope this helps.
:-)
A closed mouth gathers no feet
By kia mummy (**) [gb] Date 18.01.04 18:35 GMT
Sorry there seems to be some confusion here.The question wasn't about whether the bitch was pregnant or not .That I'm afraid is something we will never know.The question was whether a trauma such as this could cause a bitch to  reabsorb
Lorraine and the Gang
By Jackie H [gb] Date 18.01.04 20:11 GMT
Don't think anyone know what causes re-absorption or even if it really happens - whelps may die and decompose but I doubt if the experience would cause the pups to re-absorb or die, abort may be, but your neighbours would have know if that had happened.

Some times a bitch is mated and a tie is observed and the bitch shows all the signs that she is in whelp but at term although she has milk there are no puppies, so was it a case of re-absorbed pups or a phantom pregnancy, who knows the result is the same sad lack of pups.
By Smudgley (***) [gb] Date 18.01.04 20:31 GMT
Resorption certainly does happen.
It's when ferilization takes place, but before any bone formation starts, the foetuses will collapse in on themselves & are reabsorbed into the body - called resorbption.
In most bitches that are mated & that resorb, it is usually assumed they have missed.
However if a bitch has an ultrasound scan, the resorbption sites can be picked up on the scan, by an experienced person.
The cause of it is not really known, although trauma is thought to be one reason.   :-)
By Jackie H [gb] Date 18.01.04 21:24 GMT
Snoopy1, I am almost afraid to ask this after the recent happening on this forum, but this is because I am interested and (please believe me) not because I wish to cause trouble. Why is it when you have a bitch scanned the operator is only prepared to say an approx. number of pups and will never (well not those I've dealt with) tell you the number anything near what the actual score is and yet they can tell if a placenta has been attached at some time.

Look really sorry it sounds as if I am questioning your word, I'm not but can't think of any way else to put it. OH hell, this board will die if people are afraid to ask question in case it is misconstrued. Snoopy help!
By Smudgley (***) [gb] Date 18.01.04 22:03 GMT
Jackie H - please don't be afraid of ever asking me anything, it's ashame there's been some trouble on the forum recently, which is bound to make people cautious.
If I can ever be of help to anyone then I will.  :-)

Ultrasound, it is very hard to count the exact number of foetuses when doing a scan, I'd imagine that's usually why people won't commit themselves. It is really down to experience, if you ever watch someone like Gary England scanning a bitch it is totally amazing. He is very accurate when counting. He'll show you the bitches ovaries & uterine horns & every organ you can possibly think of.But then he's had so many years experience.
I think it would be good if we could know how many each bitch is having, but I think to know she's pregnant, with healthy foetuses & a small or large litter is worthwhile.
Equipment is another factor, you can have the best workman in town but if his tools are no good, he won't perform well. Ultrasound scanners are extremely expensive pieces of equipment - that's why lots of vets don't have them, as they'd take a long time to prove worthwhile from a financial point of view. For a new up to date scanner you're talking mega bucks. But the better the machine, the easier to scan.
I hope that's answered your question. Basically it depends mainly on the experience of the person, also the quality of the equipment & the fact that once you've counted to 6, it' really hard to know if your counting the same ones over again.

snoopy1  :-)

Edit to add. If ever you hear anyone say the scan was wrong. The scan isn't wrong it's the person operating the machine who's wrong!
By Jackie H [gb] Date 18.01.04 22:10 GMT
Thanks, think my vets have the latest equipment but may be lack experience. Did not really think you would take offence, sometimes it is difficult to ask for clarification without sounding as if you are querying someone's integrity, but if you don't ask you will never know.
By Smudgley (***) [gb] Date 18.01.04 22:48 GMT
:-) 
By rach [gb] Date 19.01.04 23:55 GMT
If your vet told you after scanning the bitch that there was 5 puppies and then after 5 puppies are born the bitch settles down and has a nap, how many people would check thoroughly for any more puppies or would they then think "vet was spot on" and settle down to catch up on those two nights sleep they have lost? Meanwhile there is still just one more small pup still there but not going to deliever on its own! this is how people lose their bitches.
By Albert [gb] Date 19.01.04 21:39 GMT
I know of one breeder who always uses the same person to scan her dogs, someone who scans sheep, theya re never more than one puppy out!
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