Hi, I know I am biased as I have a Patterdale Terrier. He is one in July. I have to say that he is the best dog ive ever had. He is great with other dogs and children, he loves to go over and play with any dog and whines if he doesnt get to.

He has been great (so far, touch wood) around the house, he has new chewed anything up. It only took just over 2 weeks to house train him, he is a very clever dog.

He is very loving and caring, really good guard dog too, the window cleaner cam round last week and he nearly jumped through the window to get him, as he thought he was trying to get in. Also, I love him to bits.

Ive heard and read some things on here saying that are not good pets and should only be used for working, this in my oppinion is tottaly untrue. I am getting a bitch for him soon, as I would love to breed them.

Kindest Regards, and thanks for listening to me rabbit on about him.

Can you post pics on here, as I have some lovely ones of him!
Ben

You are right Ben, they are lovely dogs, the fact remains that, in general, they are not idea family pets. A patterdale as a pet is not idea for the terrier nor in most cases the family. You may have an exception or you may be happy with the dogs behaviour, as an example most people would not be too keen to have their dog trying to get at the window cleaner because sooner or latter they wont have a window cleaner or they will have left a window open and they wont have a dog either.

Really glad you are getting on with your dog but it is not a good idea to try and say they are ideal as a family pet and encourage others to try one, that way lays the path to lots of Patterdales in rescue.

He sounds lovely

Before you consider breeding please do all your homework. Are you getting the bitch as a puppy? If so how do you no her lines are compatible to his and they compliment each other? Big question is will he/she pass all their tests (have no idea what they need) to even be considered to breed.

Enjoy your dog, no you can't post pics on here

ttfn

I have said that IMO they are ideal as a family pet. Not telling everyone to go and get one, just my account as having one. The windows are never left open anyway, we open the top ones (sahs windows) so he cant get out anyway. As for them going into rescue, this happens with all breeds of dogs, people who say they have had bad experiences with them, thats just their own account, not in general. So if they say they're not good dogs as pets, does that mean no-one should have one? or me saying that they are, should everyone have one?

Patterdales are not recognised as a "breed" yet, even though they are, a bit silly really, but there you go. So there is no set rules on what test are to be done as yet.

Hi Gonzo I have come across someone else recently with a PT they sound fun but I have never actually seen one what do they look like?
O I have just found the link, they are quite small a bit like a Manchester ? they look cheeky

Hi Reddoor,

Yep, they are quite small, and they are cheeky, lol :D

There a different variaties of them, Black and Tan, Black, Tan, Liver and Fawn. All should have white patches on their chests. There are similarities between PT's and Manchesters yes.

Enjoy the pics

Regards

Ben

Admin: URL Snipped. Ref:Terms of service

They are lovely, have known at least a couple of dozen of them. They do differ a fair bit, some are just like Jack Russell terriers in character, others are too much of a nightmare to be kept in the home by anyone. It is true under 30 examples is too few to make an informed comment on them, so perhaps I would say, take a good deal of care where you buy from and visit to make sure the person you are buying from has relatively calm stock. The Patterdale/Fell Terrier are excellent vermin dogs, not ever met any used as pack hounds, just one or sometimes two being worked by one farmer or a small group. Those pet ones I have met are far to hyper and feisty for my tastes (I'm a hound owner) and most have not been dog friendly once adult, quarrelsome little chaps, but are good with children and are able to be trained to a reasonable standard. Most I have known do not like being inside very much and all seem to have a talent of shooting out of any door as soon as it is opened no matter how hard you try to avoid it.

Now I have stated my own knowledge I will shut up, and I realise as I have never owned any and only know a few at second hand so I have no right to comment. It would worry me if they became popular as a family pet as it would no doubt only happen if this ancient terrier became changed a good deal from their origins, either that or yet another breed would be destined to be seen in high numbers waiting for rescue.

Think the reason neither they nor the Jack Russell have a standard, is that traditionally they have been breed in smallish areas and one group differs a good deal from the next, in a way it would be a pity if they were to seek recognition from the Kennel Club, because their owners would have to form a club and draw up a standard and by it's nature breeding to a standard will remove from the breed it individuality. Guess it may well happen though if they become increasingly popular as house dogs. 

Hello Gonzo,
                I also have 2 patterdales a dog & bitch both are working dogs & yes both live in our home with our feisty JRT's! without any trouble at all!

As always it depends how your dog is bred, if its from a good calm temperament line then generally they are very good pets.
Mine are both rough coated blacks & i do have to disagree with you on one point ' they are not all supposed to have a white piece on the chest' this is a myth thought up by some well know Patt breeder to sell his dogs because he could not breed the white marks out.
Frank Buck was very good friends with my grandfather & his dogs are the foundation of my own & many others.
I have heard they will be KC recognized in the future but i am not entirely sure if that is a good or bad thing...........due to their being many that have been cross bred with Staffies, to give them bigger heads & smooth coats i wouldn't say they were pure bred enough to warrant being classed as a pure breed.

Thanks Jackie and angienelly,

I will be looking for the bitch very carefully. When I went to see Gonzo I was amazed at what I saw. The 'breeder' had 9 whippits locked away in a tiny cage under the sink, the living conditions of the Patterdales where terrible. I had to take him, he was the last one, and I couldnt leave him there. I reported the guy the same day and he is no longer allowed to breed or keep any animals. I just hope they found good home for the whippets.

Anyway, this is why I am being really carefull about who I get a bitch from. I cant seem to find anyone who breeds around by my area. (South Manchester/ Cheshire).

If anyone has any information on any breeders, I would be very grateful.

Kind Regards

Ben & Gonzo :D

Well for my penniesworth, I think it would be devastating for the Patterdale Terrier to be bred by people who do not want to work them.  This is a WORKING Terrier breed and one who's enthusiasts and creators would turn in their graves to see them ruined  by being made lap dogs, so many Terrier breeds have gone the same way.  I mean no offence to those that own them, indeed I love them and will probably own one at some stage, but a pet first and foremost it will not be.
Dawn.

Dawn,

Most breeds of dogs were bred with a purpose in mind other than lap dog.   Very few people work their dogs these days.  There are many breeds who would have died out completely if it were not for their popularity as companion animals. 

Stacey

Yes I know Stacey, sad isnt it.
Dawn.

Stacey,

Those were my sentiments excactly.

Ben

Any breed that was bred primarily to work loses something if you do not breed with that purpose in mind. It is like breeding a race horse that you never intend to allow to run. In the end you lose the spirit of that creature. If you intend on breeding then never lose sight of the dogs origins and focus on that. The dog is made the way he is with a set purpose,a job of work in mind. If you ignore that purpose, you will lose that breed eventually. The patterdale is a great little terrier, but if you take the work out of him then you lose the essence of the dog IMO.

Admin,

I have not bred a dog in years, but when I did it was because the bitch had a superb temperament, healthy and was a very good example of her breed. The same for the dog I used.  She was a Cairn and to be honest I did not care whether or not she did the job she might have been asked to do 100 years ago.  However, if it had been 100 years ago, I probably would have tested her in field and if she failed I would have shot her in the head or done whatever was done to cull useless working stock.

As it happens, I took her to an Earthdog trail once, she was more interested in the scent from the 80 dogs that marked the tunnel entrance before it was her turn than she was in the rat.  I forgave her, because at home she routinely deposited dead mice on my sofa.   Somehow that mix of traits that made up working ability had survived many generations without being worked, at least not intentionally worked. 

I also had a Yorkie.  Several times she scratched through plasterboard walls in an attempt to get through to the mice she heard in the walls.  (I lived in the countryside, mice were a given.)  In the Winter, if she heard mice moving in the dry leaves underneath the snow I would literally have to take her back into the house before she froze to death, she would have ice hanging from her chin and feet.  No one told her she was no longer required to do what she had originally been bred to do, that instinct was still there in full strength.

I think it takes a long, long time to breed out working instinct, even if working ability itself not tested by breeders.  I would never want to go back to the practices that were used, and are still used by some today, to insure that only the best working animals survived and were bred.  Working instinct is embodied in the overall temperament of an animal and I think that if you breed with a sound temperament which is typical for the breed than you go a long way to preserve working ability.  The death of many breeds working ability is that temperament is forgotten in favour of structure, or colour, or whatever else is favoured in the show ring of companion pet market.  So you end up with nervous GSDs, scatty collies, shy terriers, and the like.   None of which make good companion animals either.

Besides, breeds are created by man.  If there is no longer a use for a particular type of breed, and it dies out, what is the loss?  

Stacey

Sad, very sad, why not breed out all the breed characteristics in all dogs, then we can just pick which colour and coat pattern we like and hey presto, a fireside lap dog!  Thats what they would be, non descript!
Dawn.

Whilst some shred of working instinct will remain over generations of unworked stock, that does not mean they would be suitable to actually do the job they were designed for.

You only have to look at breeds with a sound history of dual purpose stock (such as HPRs and flatcoats) to see working ability being lost in many strains. Yes, they may retrieve in a fashion and have some passing interest in game but that doesn't make them an ideal candidate for the job that they were designed for.

Chasing a few mice or rats gives no indication that a terrier would face a dangerous and larger quarry underground for a few hours until dug out. (The job that most terrier breeds were actually created for). Interestingly virtually all modern working terriers are from non-KC reg stock (with Borders being a noteable exception Dawn ) This would give a pretty good indication that working ability certainly does get bred-out of show bred dogs.

It is inevitable that the working instinct of many breeds will die out & many breeds become a pale shadow of their former selves. With some breeds the loss of instinct will actually ensure their survival. For example a staffordshire bull terrier retaining its 'working ability' is unlikely to make the family pet that is so often raved about on this board. Nice pets yes, but most modern staffs are "bull terriers" in name only.

Working dogs seem to be just "too much dog" for the average pet owner now. How often do we see novices steered away from buying working bred dogs in favour of something a bit 'easier going'? Also how often do people post on this forum unable to cope with what little working instinct their dog does display!

ps Nice terriers on your website Dawn!

Yep thats my point, people breeding out breed characteristic to suit a show ring and a pet market.  Total destruction of a breeds true identity. 

Obviously, dogs just don't do the job they were bred for, they must be trained to enhance the working qualities that breed posesses, like HPR as you say, or Labs who fetch anything and Collies that will round anything up!  They still have to be steered to do the job correctly.

We could go on couldn't we, but I still think it will devastate the Patterdale if breeds such as that are ruined by pet people that just want a dog for its looks or bouncy nature, when this dog and others like it are primarilly a working Terrier and should remain that way.

Thanks for the website comments.
Dawn.

"Chasing a few mice or rats gives no indication that a terrier would face a dangerous and larger quarry underground for a few hours until dug out. "

It is certainly is an indication that they have the potential to do so, and not all terriers were bred to go-to-ground either, or face much larger quarry.  FYI, one of the biggest problems I had with the two mousers I had was to keep them away from racoons, which they were quite happy to face off.   Although I do not see it here in the U.K., there is increasing participation in the U.S. in Earthdog trials, which do a reasonable job of testing the gameness of terriers.  And there is a small, but also growing body of breeders who test their dogs in both the show ring and field.  Unfortunately, I think the number of breeders who do both show ring and working tests will always be too small a percentage.

Personally, I would rather not go back to the "good old days" when the only thing that mattered about an animal was its working ability.   Both in terms of some of the dogs it produced, how they were produced, and my personal view about the ethical treatment of animals, including quarry.  And that does not mean that I would like all dogs to be couch potatoes that sleep with their best pal, the family bunny rabbit.

Stacey

Dawn,

I would not like dogs to be all one colour, all one temperament, all one size, it that were even possible. That's why I made the point about breeding for temperament which is *typical* of the breed.  And of course also paying attention to all physical elements that contribute to the original purpose for why a breed was developed in the first place.  True for those breeds that were developed primarily to be companion animals too. 

I do not think it is a tragedy if a breed disappears because they are no longer needed for the job they were intended to do, or, because they are not desirable as companion animals.  The reason is that except in rare cases (like the Canaan dog?) breeds were created by people through selection of animals.  New breeds have come into existance.  And, in fact, if a breed dies out the likelyhood is that by again following the same selection an "extinct" breed could be recreated -- just as it was the first time. 

Do I get sad, sentimental and think it's a shame when a breed dies out or looks like it may do?  Yup, but it's not a realistic way to look at dogs from either a historical or future point of view.

Stacey

As has been said though, there is not many dogs now that are used for their intial purpose, because there is no need. It would be a shame to lose these breeds just because they were not used or needed for the job at hand.
For example, how many people have Border Collies, and are not used to round up sheep, and other things, which is what they were bred for, or Dalmations used to travel with horse and carriage for saftey.
I think its because Patterdales are the 'newer' type of workdog to be introduced as pets, and alot of people are unsure of their temprement.
As for the working insticnt of any dog, it will always be there at the end of the day. My Patterdale was bred from none working stock, but still, when he he is in the garden brings in mice, and one time a squirral. On saying that though, how many other breeds do the same? So the instinct will always be there in any dog, for any purpose.
I have met some people who were in the same boat as me, never having heard of the breed before getting one, but they're so happy with what they have got. All dogs are different anyway, in regards to temprement, ability and instinct, not just because of their breed, but their personality also, and how they're raised from puppies.
In everyday life we try to preserve our heritage, old parts of towns, historic buildings, cars, trains the list goes on and on, why not do the same with dogs, of working stock or otherwise. As for Patterdale Terrier's not being a pet first and foremost, why should this be the case? They are, afterall dogs at the end of the day, and dogs are very clever and adaptable, none more so IMHO as the Patterdale.
They are resilliant, tough little terrier's, with lots of personaliy, loyaly and love for their owners. I know I cant generalise about the breed as a whole, but from my own personal experience and speaking to other Patterdale owners I have met on walks, this is a characteristic of much of the breed.

Regards

Ben

You go Gonzo you hit it on the money......the breed is a great one, I have a 15 month old bitch and she is the most intelligent dog as well as the most loyal. She is great with my 1 year old boy, she is also good in my 2bdroom apt. "You must walk and "work" your dog that is a must." I as well as others never heard of the breed before I saw my dog, my friend who was a pit bull breeder had her mother sent from Germany I think he said she has NUTTALL lineage. I'm totally a believer in the breed, she loves to "work" especially cuz we live close to canals and river banks. She hasn't come across any possums yet but I'm trying to get her ready by introducing her to mice and ground squirrels, once she can tell that she has killed them she losses interest, I'm worried that isn't a very good sign because possums like to play possum and she might lose the kill if thats the case.

gonzo u r very right indeed i have bean around patterdales most of my life and never once bean bit and there are working dogs. the dogs r from buck bloodlines i know because frank buck was my great grandad and my grandad still has some of the best dogs about now.to angienelly the white patch sometime will come round in a good dog my grandad max buck had a few dogs years ago  that had a white patch and they come from frank sometime they do somtime they dont but most will not have a white patch anyway come across this web page and thought i would put in a word cheers andy

i have a one year old bitch and i find that at home she is hard work very good with people over affectionate if  anything but also incredibly restless, however when we go out for walks she is a different dog placid obedient still very affectionate towards people but a much calmer animal and charming company. i also have a lakeland bitcj=h that is slightly older and she is the complete opposite wonderful at home very settled but restless  and poorly behaved when we are out and about.

Both dogs are very affectionate and excellent with my young family (not quite so keen on the cats) but they are a good example that you can not get two dogs exactly the same!!

Glen